Question for Lutherans

[Duane1966]

There are denominations and there are small churches. They exist all over the world. Some are large institutions and some are small churches that meet in people’s homes.That is what Christianity is. It is communities of like minded followers of Christ.

If they are like minded why do they feel the need to start up a new community, that teaches things different from the community they left?

Jesus prayed that we may be one, and we ARE one. We are one as His believers. Are we one mega-institution? No, of course not. That has never been the case, not even from the earliest days. The Church has always been divided - in geography, in theology, and in how we believe. But THAT we believe is what holds us together.

So, in your view can their be such a thing as schism? And if yes, what would it look like?

John admonishes those who left. He never says they stopped believing. Yet he no longer counts them as being one of them. Why, if their new community is just as good as John’s?

How can one be kicked out of the Church, which Jesus clearly says can be done, if all the person has to do is go down to the other community of Christian believers, and join them?

Why did Paul write to the Corinthians admonishing them? They still believed in Christ. Would it have been okay for them to ignore his writings, write back to Paul and say your belief in Christ is just one way of expressing it, we like our way better? What would Paul have done then? Do you think he would give them a thumb’s up?

 

[Duane1966]

Yep. But why is it almost always 30,000-40,000. Sounds like it’s based on something specific

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm. I do know that Gordon Conwell University says that Protestantism is growing at two new denominations a day.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The Catholic Church would be happy to accept 30,000 $20’s

 

[Wannano]

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm. I do know that Gordon Conwell University says that Protestantism is growing at two new denominations a day.

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/DenomCartoon.png

The Catholic Church would be happy to accept 30,000 $20’s

Why be bothered with $600,000? Doesn’t Peters Pence bring in aprox. 80 to 100 million?

 

[Picky_Picky]

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm. I do know that Gordon Conwell University says that Protestantism is growing at two new denominations a day.

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/DenomCartoon.png

The Catholic Church would be happy to accept 30,000 $20’s

The whole basis for the count is very strange. Take a look at the motley Anglicans. This is what Duane’s link says:

The smallest “mega-bloc” are the Anglicans. These are broken down in Barrett’s Encyclopedia as follows:

Anglo-Catholic
Central or Broad Church Anglican
Ecumenical (Anglican/Protestant/Orthodox joint parishes)
Anglican Evangelical, Evangelical Anglican
High Church Anglican (Prayer Book Catholic)
Low Church Anglican (Conservative Evangelical)
Anglican, of plural or mixed traditions

Out of these groupings the encyclopedia gets 168 specific Anglican “denominations” (year 2000 numbers).

If this represents a start at determining how many Anglican denominations the encyclopaedia wants to declare, then it seems nonsensical to me. Each of those group names bar one could be used to describe a number of parishes within the Church of England, for instance, which are very clearly not part of separate denominations. That’s before you get to the “one denomination per country” business.

 

[Duane1966]

I did read the whole page. I simply answered GKC with a link to the methodology. Nowhere have I stated in that post that I agreed with that methodology of accounting.

 

[GKC]

I been discussing this subject here for many years.

 

[GKC]

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm. I do know that Gordon Conwell University says that Protestantism is growing at two new denominations a day.

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/DenomCartoon.png

The Catholic Church would be happy to accept 30,000 $20’s

Yes, I know. As I said elsewhere, I’ve been posting on this for many a year. My comment quoted was made in a slightly ironic tone. I know what the source likely is. And I know why the direct use of the numbers can be so illusory.

Some folk seem not to.

The major point is that to compare numbers, one must have a common definition of what’s being counted. That is what is lacking.

 

[Duane1966]

Yes, I know. As I said elsewhere, I’ve been posting on this for many a year. My comment quoted was made in a slightly ironic tone. I know what the source likely is. And I know why the direct use of the numbers can be so illusory.

Some folk seem not to.

The major point is that to compare numbers, one must have a common definition of what’s being counted. That is what is lacking.

You? Being ironic?

Seems to me that any congregation that is only answerable to itself for governance, should be counted as a separate denomination. If this is the criteria, 40,000 will be low, and that’s no joke.

 

[GKC]

You? Being ironic?

Seems to me that any congregation that is only answerable to itself for governance, should be counted as a separate denomination. If this is the criteria, 40,000 will be low, and that’s no joke.

I think it would be so counted, in the putative source. Question is not what we or any others think would be a reasonable total number, but what that source assumes is the number, using their methodology. Else, any one’s guess is as good as anyone’s guess, and based on nothing in particular

 

[Picky_Picky]

I think it would be so counted, in the putative source. Question is not what we or any others think would be a reasonable total number, but what that source assumes is the number, using their methodology. Else, any one’s guess is as good as anyone’s guess, and based on nothing in particular

In any case, plumping for 30k or 40k or whatever has only rhetorical value: it is the truth that there has been much splintering of that organisation which would once have been considered a monolith — the Western Church. Perhaps it would be sensible to drop the claims about just how many thousand, which has little relevance outside point scoring, and let any debate proceed on the basis that the Western Church has splintered, or has been splintered, into many parts, and that this splintering is by many — most, possibly — considered unfortunate and in need of repair. (And then, repair: how to achieve, etc.).

 

[GKC]

In any case, plumping for 30k or 40k or whatever has only rhetorical value: it is the truth that there has been much splintering of that organisation which would once have been considered a monolith — the Western Church. Perhaps it would be sensible to drop the claims about just how many thousand, which has little relevance outside point scoring, and let any debate proceed on the basis that the Western Church has splintered, or has been splintered, into many parts, and that this splintering is by many — most, possibly — considered unfortunate and in need of repair. (And then, repair: how to achieve, etc.).

Sounds right to me.

 

[steve_b]

If I’m understanding history correctly, Luther didn’t want to break away from Catholicism but to improve upon it?

I didn’t see where anyone answered your question.

Luther was excommunicated for his errors that were listed for him. Excommunication is a disciplinary action that is not meant to be permanent. Luther had a choice to reconcile or not. He didn’t recant his errors, he didn’t even respond to them, so the ball was in his court, and he chose to remain in his errors. And from that, came excommunication and all the collateral damage that developed from that. Unless someone knows of a different ending, he remained excommunicated

Decet Romanum Pontificem

 

[steve_b]

I didn’t see where anyone answered your question.

Luther was excommunicated for his errors that were listed for him. Excommunication is a disciplinary action that is not meant to be permanent. Luther had a choice to reconcile or not. Unless someone knows of a different ending, He didn’t recant his errors, he didn’t even respond to them, so the ball was in his court, and he chose to remain in his errors. And from that, came all the collateral damage that developed from that.

Decet Romanum Pontificem

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

I didn’t see where anyone answered your question.

Luther was excommunicated for his errors that were listed for him. Excommunication is a disciplinary action that is not meant to be permanent. Luther had a choice to reconcile or not. He didn’t recant his errors, he didn’t even respond to them, so the ball was in his court, and he chose to remain in his errors. And from that, came excommunication and all the collateral damage that developed from that. Unless someone knows of a different ending, he remained excommunicated

Decet Romanum Pontificem

Thank you for your reply! I understand that he was excommunicated (as was the the case of the other reformers and King Henry VIII.) But the 95 Theses where meant to be a collegiate debate (for he was also a professor in Wittenberg.) At what point did the Pope looked at the Theses and claimed it as heresy?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I didn’t see where anyone answered your question.

Luther was excommunicated for his errors that were listed for him. Excommunication is a disciplinary action that is not meant to be permanent. Luther had a choice to reconcile or not. He didn’t recant his errors, he didn’t even respond to them, so the ball was in his court, and he chose to remain in his errors. And from that, came excommunication and all the collateral damage that developed from that. Unless someone knows of a different ending, he remained excommunicated

As published in From Conflict to Communion by the Holy See, that is to say by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity:
Already the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession in 1980 offered both Lutherans and Catholics the opportunity to develop a common understanding of the foundational truths of the faith by pointing to Jesus Christ as the living center of our Christian faith. On the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth in 1983, the international dialogue between Roman Catholics and Lutherans jointly affirmed a number of Luther’s essential concerns. The commission’s report designated him “Witness to Jesus Christ” and declared, “Christians, whether Protestant or Catholic, cannot disregard the person and the message of this man.”
John Paul II spoke on this point. I remember it well. It was November 1980, when he was addressing the Evangelical Church, during his visit to Germany. His words were very powerful that day…the insight that the Augsburg Confession reflects “a full accord on fundamental and central truths”. No less special was was the acclamation of the new title for Martin Luther by Catholics on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of his birth: “Witness to Jesus Christ.” Because of the accord reached by the International Dialogue, this title has very special meaning as it has been employed by the Popes and the Holy See.

And on October 31, 2016, every Catholic around the globe will be called upon by Pope Francis to commemorate the Reformation and Martin Luther.
*(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis will travel to Sweden in October for a joint ecumenical commemoration of the start of the Reformation, together with leaders of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of other Christian Churches.

The event will take place on October 31st in the southern Swedish city of Lund where the Lutheran World Federation was founded in 1947. While kicking off a year of events to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, it will also highlight the important ecumenical developments that have taken place during the past 50 years of dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans.

The one-day event will include a common worship service in Lund cathedral based on a Catholic-Lutheran “Common Prayer” liturgical guide, published earlier this month by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF).

The commemoration in Lund follows on directly from the publication in 2013 of a joint document entitled ‘From Conflict to Communion’, which focuses on the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness. While asking for forgiveness for the divisions of past centuries, it also seeks to showcase the gifts of the Reformation and celebrate the way Catholics and Lutherans around the world work together on issues of common concern.*
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/25/pope_to_travel_to_sweden_for_joint_reformation_commemoration/1203462

You will note the bolded part. I will share with you a glimpse of two of the opening prayers from the Common Prayer resource which the Holy Father will be using, together with the Lutheran co-Presider, at this very special service of common prayer in Lund.
*Opening Oration I
Jesus Christ, Lord of the church, send your Holy Spirit! Illumine our hearts and heal our memories. O Holy Spirit: help us to rejoice in the gifts that have come to the Church through the Reformation, prepare us to repent for the dividing walls that we, and our forebears, have built, and equip us for common witness and service in the world.

Opening Oration II
Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ*

I can say that the Holy Father will have extraordinary things to say about Martin Luther and the Reformation – and how it is re-assessed and to be seen by us int he 21st century – throughout the year long commemoration of the Reformation’s milestone anniversary, which Roman Catholics will be observing between October 31, 2016 and October 31, 2017.

Every Catholic should read – and rejoice in – From Conflict to Communion.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

 

[Duane1966]

In any case, plumping for 30k or 40k or whatever has only rhetorical value: it is the truth that there has been much splintering of that organisation which would once have been considered a monolith — the Western Church. Perhaps it would be sensible to drop the claims about just how many thousand, which has little relevance outside point scoring, and let any debate proceed on the basis that the Western Church has splintered, or has been splintered, into many parts, and that this splintering is by many — most, possibly — considered unfortunate and in need of repair. (And then, repair: how to achieve, etc.).

Picky, if the Catholic Church does not change her dogmas, which she has never done, and will never do, how do you envision repair happening? What caused the Reformation, is still what separates us.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you for your reply! I understand that he was excommunicated (as was the the case of the other reformers and King Henry VIII.) But the 95 Theses where meant to be a collegiate debate (for he was also a professor in Wittenberg.) At what point did the Pope looked at the Theses and claimed it as heresy?

RE: the ninety five theses, in 1517, If you scroll down in this link Martin Luther to where it discuses the “ninety five theses”, see if that answers your question.

His excommunication came 4 years later, in 1521.

Inside the link I posted Decet Romanum Pontificem
there is another link inside that link that you might have missed. It lists Luther’s errors that he was excommunicated for, because he would not change his views * Exsurge Domine *

BTW, it seems the big issue for Luther was the selling of indulgences.
Not to get this thread going in too many directions

here’s some answers about indulgences. I did it this way on account of space/post. These are quick reads. If that doesn’t do it let me know

Does the Catholic Church still sell indulgences?
Myths about Indulgences
A Primer on Indulgences
Apostolic Indulgences

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

BTW, it seems the big issue for Luther was the selling of indulgences.
Not to get this thread going in too many directions

I think it’s already in many directions

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

And thank you steve b for the links

 

[Don_Ruggero]

There are three passages in From Conflict to Communion that I think speak very eloquently to many points being discussed on the Catholic Answers Forum but is being done by people who clearly are not theologians, not ecumenists, not ecclesiologists and not acquainted with the workings of the Curia. What is expressed in so many posts is absolutely alien to the mind of the Holy See in 2016…and the concerns of the Holy See:
In the last century, Christianity has become increasingly global. There are today Christians of various confessions throughout the whole world; the number of Christians in the South is growing, while the number of Christians in the North is shrinking. The churches of the South are continually assuming a greater importance within worldwide Christianity. These churches do not easily see the confessional conflicts of the sixteenth century as their own conflicts, even if they are connected to the churches of Europe and North America through various Christian world communions and share with them a common doctrinal basis. With regard to the year 2017, it will be very important to take seriously the contributions, questions, and perspectives of these churches.
And
*Today we are able to tell the story of the Lutheran Reformation together. Even though Lutherans and Catholics have different points of view, because of ecumenical dialogue they are able to overcome traditional anti-Protestant and anti-Catholic hermeneutics in order to find a common way of remembering past events. The following chapter is not a full description of the entire history and all the disputed theological points. It highlights only some of the most important historical situations and theological issues of the Reformation in the sixteenth century. *
The above passage actually is the Holy See addressing the world…Catholics, Lutherans, and others who derive from the Reformation…and is a far more interesting and thoughtful presentation than what I read from what I take are predominantly American Catholics participating on the Catholic Answers Forum; such would do well to leave behind the sixteenth century as the rest of the world has.

Finally:

Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

To be perfectly frank, there are people making arguments on this thread, thinking they are being faithful to the Catholic Church but are very far from it and are in danger of finding themselves having decisions made and announced – such as being directed that you WILL commemorate the Reformation between October 31, 2016, and October 31, 2017 – that may take you quite unaware…until the directive overtakes you, that is.

Since we are Catholic, we will of course follow without reserve the Successor of Saint Peter in what he directs concerning our commemorations, as Catholics, of the Reformation…globally and each in our own diocese, under the diocesan bishop who has already received the essential communications about these observances.