Question for Lutherans

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This is very true. I have a friend who’s going to a Lutheran seminary and I’m thinking about going to an Episcopal one myself (If you can spare a prayer, I would greatly appreciate it :)) For Episcopalians, I believe it depends on the seminary but it’s generally 3/4 years of post-secondary education. I think Lutherans have something similar (but it varies between LCMS, WELS, and ELCA.)
I know Episcopal and Lutheran seminaries here in the San Francisco Bay Area. They are post-graduate, not post-secondary. One receives a Master of Divinity degree after 3 years of very hard study. This also includes parish internships, chaplaincy training (CPE), and rigorous denominational examinations. One must go through the requirements, also, of the local diocese/synod. Seminarians are trained in all the expected things - Scripture, church history, theology, liturgy, homiletics, pastoral care, etc. Our clergy are well trained, and similarly trained as Catholic clergy.
 
Or Catholics and Catholics. In my circle of friends and acquaintances, there are social justice Catholics, there are wonderfully strong feminists who will fight til their dying days for women’s rights in the church, there are gay and lesbian men and women who are married and starting to have children, there are Dorothy Day Catholics, and Thomas Merton mystics. There are strong ecumenical and interfaith proponents who will happily share their pulpits with other non RC people of faith. There are Catholics who are on the side of tradition and those who are on the side of new innovative theology. I know Catholics who pray to Santa Muerta and those who practice Zen Buddhism.

I have never quite met two who are alike or who agree on everything, even things on the ‘checklist’.

Some have more in common with me as an Anglican than fellow Catholics.

Isn’t that the way of things though? I honestly have never known anything different.
Sorry, but the poor catechesis or politics of individuals does not translate to doctrine and dogma of the church. We dont a have a free for all.
 
Sorry, but the poor catechesis or politics of individuals does not translate to doctrine and dogma of the church. We dont a have a free for all.
It has nothing to do with catechesis, since many are clergy or theologians or religious. Many are upstanding members of your faith. To me, it shows that there is diversity, cultural acceptance, and a varied theological spectrum within your community. Even in this Archdiocese, there is a wide variety of parishes, universities, etc. that reflect all this.
 
It has nothing to do with catechesis, since many are clergy or theologians or religious. Many are upstanding members of your faith. To me, it shows that there is diversity, cultural acceptance, and a varied theological spectrum within your community. Even in this Archdiocese, there is a wide variety of parishes that reflect all this.
Again, you can name any individuals you like. It’s not a free for all of belief. We have an authority, and it’s not up to private interpretation with everyone claiming Spirit
 
I know Episcopal and Lutheran seminaries here in the San Francisco Bay Area. They are post-graduate, not post-secondary. One receives a Master of Divinity degree after 3 years of very hard study. This also includes parish internships, chaplaincy training (CPE), and rigorous denominational examinations. One must go through the requirements, also, of the local diocese/synod. Seminarians are trained in all the expected things - Scripture, church history, theology, liturgy, homiletics, pastoral care, etc. Our clergy are well trained, and similarly trained as Catholic clergy.
I meant to say post-graduate. Thank you for the correction 🙂

I know there’s CDSP in Berkeley which a lot of priests and deacons in my diocese went there and said they really liked it 🙂
 
It has nothing to do with catechesis, since many are clergy or theologians or religious. Many are upstanding members of your faith. To me, it shows that there is diversity, cultural acceptance, and a varied theological spectrum within your community. Even in this Archdiocese, there is a wide variety of parishes that reflect all this.
Motley Anglicans are motley, in the absence of a binding magisterium. Motley RCs, not so.
 
Motley Anglicans are motley, in the absence of a binding magisterium. Motley RCs, not so.
Ah, but in my part of the world, there is more RC motley-ness than perhaps in other places.
 
I meant to say post-graduate. Thank you for the correction 🙂

I know there’s CDSP in Berkeley which a lot of priests and deacons in my diocese went there and said they really liked it 🙂
Yes, CDSP is local to me. A good place with good people.
 
I would not doubt that, at all.

But it is still as I said.
Of course. I agree with you totally. BUT, perhaps the point I want to make is that there IS diversity within the RCC. There is room for many differences. And then many times not.
 
Yes, CDSP is local to me. A good place with good people.
👍 Awesome!
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ComplineSanFran:
Of course. I agree with you totally. BUT, perhaps the point I want to make is that there IS diversity within the RCC. There is room for many differences. And then many times not.
I can only imagine that liturgical churches (RCC included) do include some form of cultural influence with Mass but maybe not so much as to cause liturgical abuse.
 
👍 Awesome!

I can only imagine that liturgical churches (RCC included) do include some form of cultural influence with Mass but maybe not so much as to cause liturgical abuse.
There are many ‘creative’ liturgies in the liturgical churches. Abuse, however? That’s not a word that non-RCs use much. I have been to some pretty spectacular Episcopal, Lutheran, Orthodox, and even UCC liturgies.
 
There are many ‘creative’ liturgies in the liturgical churches. Abuse, however? That’s not a word that non-RCs use much. I have been to some pretty spectacular Episcopal, Lutheran, Orthodox, and even UCC liturgies.
For me it’s difficult to see diversity in worship since I currently live in the Midwest,
and I kept seeing “liturgical abuse” often on these forums so I thought that’s what that meant 🤷
 
For me it’s difficult to see diversity in worship since I currently live in the Midwest,
and I kept seeing “liturgical abuse” often on these forums so I thought that’s what that meant 🤷
There are certainly styles and rubrics in liturgies, but also a wide range of practice. Perhaps the RCs here can talk more about ‘abuses’ and what that means. If you asked an Episcopal priest what a liturgical abuse was, you might get an odd look.
 
There are certainly styles and rubrics in liturgies, but also a wide range of practice. Perhaps the RCs here can talk more about ‘abuses’ and what that means. If you asked an Episcopal priest what a liturgical abuse was, you might get an odd look.
I feel that’s because we tend to be flexible. We still keep to traditions sure, but I like to keep things in order 😛
 
I brought up Rev Junge in my post
he was quoted twice in the following link I gave.
I am quite acquainted with the Reverend Junge, actually. I have a very high regard and opinion of him and it is wonderful he will be in Lund as a co-officiant with the Pope for this historic service of common prayer and inauguration of the joint Catholic Lutheran Commemoration of the Reformation. I am happy for Martin as this is a moment of great accomplishment for him personally…being beside the Pope as the Pope’s Lutheran co-officiant at the service of Common Prayer. It is absolutely tremendous. To see this happen is, itself, a moment for every Roman Catholic to take pause and to celebrate.

As for his thoughts about an ordinariate for Lutherans…I certainly understood his concerns and I appreciate them just as I understood and appreciated Lord Williamson’s concerns and apprehensions regarding the Ordinariates created for the Anglicans. That said, i think they are useful in many ways.

At the end of the day, I think the ordinariates have been a blessing for those who have availed themselves of them – but much more they are a blessing to the Roman Church because through them, the Roman Church has incorporated into itself, into its liturgy and into its proper patrimony, gifts derived from those who were Reformers. This is an enrichment to every Catholic, even those who do not worship using the Missal of Divine Worship.

The Anglicans coming over have their own jurisdiction. Deference to their own sensibilities. They have their proper traditions, patrimony, and elements from their liturgy that are not simply preserved but held aloft as a great and singular thing.

The exact same would be true in terms of the enrichment to the Roman Church by the creation of a Lutheran Ordinariate with all the elements from their proper heritage that would thus become a part of the Roman Church.

Pope Saint John Paul II spoke relative extensively on how Catholics were helping to enrich non Catholic Churches and Ecclesial Communities just as we were being enriched by them. As he said so eloquently in Ut Unum Sint: WE ALL BELONG TO CHRIST.
Let’s not forget the Catholic Church had a response to that declaration
There are so many interesting back stories that can be told – and I hope one day do see the light of day – about this contribution and actually other more decisive helps from the CDF. As it is, however, I was then – and am now – quite in accord with what Cardinal Ratzinger said here…not least because it meant those who were actually doing dialogue would continue to have work. And, indeed, everything was not completely resolved on the issue of justification…and that continues to blossom. The document stands as a tremendous accomplishment, which is about to be built upon in an extraordinary way.

Actually, that the JDDJ happened at all was in large measure thanks to Cardinal Ratzinger whose interventions kept it moving forward.

It is Joseph Ratzinger thoughts on the “saving presence of the Lord” in the Lutheran Eucharist in spite of the controversy concerning Order that has been a tremendous impetus forward in these last years, actually.

What is more, it is precisely Joseph Ratzinger, as Pope Benedict, who brought as head of the CDF the architect of From Conflict to Communion. The operation and interventions of the CDF, however, have radically changed since 1999.
 
I am quite acquainted with the Reverend Junge, actually. I have a very high regard and opinion of him and it is wonderful he will be in Lund as a co-officiant with the Pope for this historic service of common prayer and inauguration of the joint Catholic Lutheran Commemoration of the Reformation. I am happy for Martin as this is a moment of great accomplishment for him personally…being beside the Pope as the Pope’s Lutheran co-officiant at the service of Common Prayer. It is absolutely tremendous. To see this happen is, itself, a moment for every Roman Catholic to take pause and to celebrate.

As for his thoughts about an ordinariate for Lutherans…I certainly understood his concerns and I appreciate them just as I understood and appreciated Lord Williamson’s concerns and apprehensions regarding the Ordinariates created for the Anglicans. That said, i think they are useful in many ways.

At the end of the day, I think the ordinariates have been a blessing for those who have availed themselves of them – but much more they are a blessing to the Roman Church because through them, the Roman Church has incorporated into itself, into its liturgy and into its proper patrimony, gifts derived from those who were Reformers. This is an enrichment to every Catholic, even those who do not worship using the Missal of Divine Worship.

The Anglicans coming over have their own jurisdiction. Deference to their own sensibilities. They have their proper traditions, patrimony, and elements from their liturgy that are not simply preserved but held aloft as a great and singular thing.

The exact same would be true in terms of the enrichment to the Roman Church by the creation of a Lutheran Ordinariate with all the elements from their proper heritage that would thus become a part of the Roman Church.

Pope Saint John Paul II spoke relative extensively on how Catholics were helping to enrich non Catholic Churches and Ecclesial Communities just as we were being enriched by them. As he said so eloquently in Ut Unum Sint: WE ALL BELONG TO CHRIST.

There are so many interesting back stories that can be told – and I hope one day do see the light of day – about this contribution and actually other more decisive helps from the CDF. As it is, however, I was then – and am now – quite in accord with what Cardinal Ratzinger said here…not least because it meant those who were actually doing dialogue would continue to have work. And, indeed, everything was not completely resolved on the issue of justification…and that continues to blossom. The document stands as a tremendous accomplishment, which is about to be built upon in an extraordinary way.

Actually, that the JDDJ happened at all was in large measure thanks to Cardinal Ratzinger whose interventions kept it moving forward.

It is Joseph Ratzinger thoughts on the “saving presence of the Lord” in the Lutheran Eucharist in spite of the controversy concerning Order that has been a tremendous impetus forward in these last years, actually.

What is more, it is precisely Joseph Ratzinger, as Pope Benedict, who brought as head of the CDF the architect of From Conflict to Communion. The operation and interventions of the CDF, however, have radically changed since 1999.
Thank you for the interesting post. However what is your thought as to why the confessional Lutheran concerning the LCMS and WELS did not sign the JDDJ?
In fact, the President at the time of the LCMS Synod said it was a big step backwards for the Lutherans as so for as the LWF is comprise of the more liberal Lutherans with women ordination etc?

Same with Reformation commemoration. Seems the confessional Lutherans last I read anyways have RSVP’d no.

Any thoughts?

Mary.
 
Of course. I agree with you totally. BUT, perhaps the point I want to make is that there IS diversity within the RCC. There is room for many differences. And then many times not.
There is a tremendous breadth of diversity, actually, within Catholicism that is accommodated…in a way that is quite unique and distinct…and I think that is the point you are getting to. There is agreement in what is absolutely essential but celebration in all the diversity that Catholicism accommodates today. Clergy who are married and clergy who are not. Diocesan priests, monks, friars, other regulars, societies of apostolic life as but one small example of the diversity of charisms which the Church accommodates.

I have stood near the Pope as we prayed the Creed in Latin according to the form Catholics habitually do and I have stood near the Pope when we prayed, at his command, the Creed but without the addition of the Filioque because of those present from the East.

I have offered the Mass using both the vetus ordo and the novus ordo of the Roman Rite and, by the gift of the Holy See, concelebrated with the Eastern Churches with which we are in communion, using their liturgical texts. I have presided at Mass with the Africans with a liturgy fully inculturated for them, accompanied by liturgical dance and other indigenous practices accommodated within the liturgy. As I did so, since I was a professor of liturgy at the time, my mind went back to when the Council Fathers said in Sacrosanctum Concilium “In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed” – and I knew what I was doing then at those liturgies was thanks to the foresight of the Council Fathers, who were so evidently guided by the Holy Spirit. I am confident the Church in the decades ahead will use this provision even more.

I have certainly seen breadth in my roles as both an academic as well as in my work on ecumenism. For the generation coming after me, there will be so much more than there was in my generation – to say nothing of the generation before mine.

I am so grateful to the Lord to live and be a priest in this era after the Council…such a gift from the Lord for the Church and for all the world.
 
Thank you for the interesting post. However what is your thought as to why the confessional Lutheran concerning the LCMS and WELS did not sign the JDDJ?
In fact, the President at the time of the LCMS Synod said it was a big step backwards for the Lutherans as so for as the LWF is comprise of the more liberal Lutherans with women ordination etc?

Same with Reformation commemoration. Seems the confessional Lutherans last I read anyways have RSVP’d no.
Well, with due respect for your question, it’s not properly my place, in my position, to critique the decisions of entities which, through their instruments of government and self-determination, arrive at conclusions of which I might wish they had reached a different conclusion. Your question is one to ask them. I know the situation of the bodies in Europe that are very much in accord with the joint commemoration but, frankly, different bodies, notably in the United States, have their own ways of thinking, which call for respect

Note is also made, I hasten to add, that there are bodies for whom this anniversary is more ambiguous. Thus we read in From Conflict to Communion:
*10. In the last century, Christianity has become increasingly global. There are today Christians of various confessions throughout the whole world; the number of Christians in the South is growing, while the number of Christians in the North is shrinking. The churches of the South are continually assuming a greater importance within worldwide Christianity. These churches do not easily see the confessional conflicts of the sixteenth century as their own conflicts, even if they are connected to the churches of Europe and North America through various Christian world communions and share with them a common doctrinal basis. With regard to the year 2017, it will be very important to take seriously the contributions, questions, and perspectives of these churches.
  1. For more than a hundred years, Pentecostal and other charismatic movements have become very widespread across the globe. These powerful movements have put forward new emphases that have made many of the old confessional controversies seem obsolete. The Pentecostal movement is present in many other churches in the form of the charismatic movement, creating new commonalities and communities across confessional boundaries. Thus, this movement opens up new ecumenical opportunities while, at the same time, creating additional challenges that will play a significant role in the observance of the Reformation in 2017. *
    In establishing where the Church of Rome stands on an issue, that is not only to the benefit of the dialogue partner(s), it for the Catholic Church throughout the world. By these texts and by these commemorations, the Holy See is speaking to every Catholic about where the Church TODAY stands. It is not where we stood 50 years ago…let alone where we stood three or four or five hundred years ago. That will be loudly proclaimed.
Whoever chooses to participate in this joint commemoration is welcomed – as individuals or as part of an ecclesiastical entity. But let us be clear: the Church of Rome is commemorating the anniversary of the Reformation in a historic way and mandating it for those under her governance…there is no opt out. Catholic bishops throughout the world, in their own various dioceses diffused throughout the world, as the Successors of the Apostles, will be commemorating the Reformation.

This is an event of great and historic moment for the Catholic Church…as we consciously choose to tell the story of the past in a different way. That alters forever our own history and our practice, by what we are doing in and through this commemoration that on this global scale. It is also about the healing of memories as we set aside things of the past.

Karlheinz Diez, the auxiliary bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Fulda, and Eero Huovinen, the Lutheran bishop emeritus of Helsinki wrote:
*In 2017, Catholic and Lutheran Christians will most fittingly look back on events that occurred 500 years earlier by putting the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center. The gospel should be celebrated and communicated to the people of our time /…/ Herein lies the basis for our joy in our common faith.

To this joy also belongs a discerning, self-critical look at ourselves, not only in our history, but also today. We Christians have certainly not always been faithful to the gospel /…/ Repeatedly, we have stood in the way of the good news of the mercy of God.

Both as individuals and as a community of believers, we all constantly require repentance and reform—encouraged and led by the Holy Spirit. “When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said ‘Repent,’ He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.” Thus reads the opening statement of Luther’s 95 Theses from 1517, which triggered the Reformation movement.

/…/

The true unity of the church can only exist as unity in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact that the struggle for this truth in the sixteenth century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history. In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church. This commemorative year presents us with two challenges: the purification and healing of memories, and the restoration of Christian unity in accordance with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4–6).

The following text describes a way “from conflict to communion”—a way whose goal we have not yet reached. Nevertheless, the Lutheran–Catholic Commission for Unity has taken seriously the words of Pope John XXIII, “The things that unite us are greater than those that divide us.” /…/ *
 
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