Question for Lutherans

[MaryT777]

Well, with due respect for your question, it’s not properly my place, in my position, to critique the decisions of entities which, through their instruments of government and self-determination, arrive at conclusions of which I might wish they had reached a different conclusion. Your question is one to ask them. I know the situation of the bodies in Europe that are very much in accord with the joint commemoration but, frankly, different bodies, notably in the United States, have their own ways of thinking, which call for respect

Note is also made, I hasten to add, that there are bodies for whom this anniversary is more ambiguous. Thus we read in From Conflict to Communion:
*10. In the last century, Christianity has become increasingly global. There are today Christians of various confessions throughout the whole world; the number of Christians in the South is growing, while the number of Christians in the North is shrinking. The churches of the South are continually assuming a greater importance within worldwide Christianity. These churches do not easily see the confessional conflicts of the sixteenth century as their own conflicts, even if they are connected to the churches of Europe and North America through various Christian world communions and share with them a common doctrinal basis. With regard to the year 2017, it will be very important to take seriously the contributions, questions, and perspectives of these churches.

1. For more than a hundred years, Pentecostal and other charismatic movements have become very widespread across the globe. These powerful movements have put forward new emphases that have made many of the old confessional controversies seem obsolete. The Pentecostal movement is present in many other churches in the form of the charismatic movement, creating new commonalities and communities across confessional boundaries. Thus, this movement opens up new ecumenical opportunities while, at the same time, creating additional challenges that will play a significant role in the observance of the Reformation in 2017. *
   In establishing where the Church of Rome stands on an issue, that is not only to the benefit of the dialogue partner(s), it for the Catholic Church throughout the world. By these texts and by these commemorations, the Holy See is speaking to every Catholic about where the Church TODAY stands. It is not where we stood 50 years ago…let alone where we stood three or four or five hundred years ago. That will be loudly proclaimed.

Whoever chooses to participate in this joint commemoration is welcomed – as individuals or as part of an ecclesiastical entity. But let us be clear: the Church of Rome is commemorating the anniversary of the Reformation in a historic way and mandating it for those under her governance…there is no opt out. Catholic bishops throughout the world, in their own various dioceses diffused throughout the world, as the Successors of the Apostles, will be commemorating the Reformation.

This is an event of great and historic moment for the Catholic Church…as we consciously choose to tell the story of the past in a different way. That alters forever our own history and our practice, by what we are doing in and through this commemoration that on this global scale. It is also about the healing of memories as we set aside things of the past.

Karlheinz Diez, the auxiliary bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Fulda, and Eero Huovinen, the Lutheran bishop emeritus of Helsinki wrote:
*In 2017, Catholic and Lutheran Christians will most fittingly look back on events that occurred 500 years earlier by putting the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center. The gospel should be celebrated and communicated to the people of our time /…/ Herein lies the basis for our joy in our common faith.

To this joy also belongs a discerning, self-critical look at ourselves, not only in our history, but also today. We Christians have certainly not always been faithful to the gospel /…/ Repeatedly, we have stood in the way of the good news of the mercy of God.

Both as individuals and as a community of believers, we all constantly require repentance and reform—encouraged and led by the Holy Spirit. “When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said ‘Repent,’ He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.” Thus reads the opening statement of Luther’s 95 Theses from 1517, which triggered the Reformation movement.

/…/

The true unity of the church can only exist as unity in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact that the struggle for this truth in the sixteenth century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history. In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church. This commemorative year presents us with two challenges: the purification and healing of memories, and the restoration of Christian unity in accordance with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4–6).

The following text describes a way “from conflict to communion”—a way whose goal we have not yet reached. Nevertheless, the Lutheran–Catholic Commission for Unity has taken seriously the words of Pope John XXIII, “The things that unite us are greater than those that divide us.” /…/ *

Thanks so much for this post. After my divorce I almost joined the LMCS Church and I have a high affinity for its emphasis the Word of God and the sacraments. I also have a high affinity for their commitment to life, Biblical marriage, and thoughts on male ordination.

I guess, Father, I’m just sad they are not participating in this last I heard.

I am not questioning this in anyway.

I just wish they would be there too.

Thanks for your wonderful post. This is INDEED a great time to be here to witness such an event.

Amen.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thanks so much for this post. After my divorce I almost joined the LMCS Church and I have a high affinity for its emphasis the Word of God and the sacraments. I also have a high affinity for their commitment to life, Biblical marriage, and thoughts on male ordination.

I guess, Father, I’m just sad they are not participating in this last I heard.

I am not questioning this in anyway.

I just wish they would be there too.

Thanks for your wonderful post. This is INDEED a great time to be here to witness such an event.

Amen.

I have a fondness and an esteem for the Missouri Synod Lutherans; to the extent I have had occasion to be in contact with them across the years, it has always been a positive experience from my perspective.

All those years ago, I could not have imagined we would be at the point where we are within my lifetime. The Pope going to Sweden to begin a Catholic commemoration of the Reformation seemed so implausible…but it is less than five months away.

I look forward, if the Lord gives me life, to co-presiding at one of the commemorations with a Lutheran cleric beside me…hopefully of younger vintage to whom the baton can be ceremonially past. That will be one of the most major milestones of my life because of what it signifies: a Catholic priest and Lutheran cleric co-presiding, jointly blessing. I already have the text of the service of common prayer in hand.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

It is the word that applies to all of us since we all belong to Christ and we are all part of the one Body of Christ.

As Pope Francis said last year to the Global Christian Forum:
*I extend greetings to you and all those participating in the Global Christian Forum Consultation, to be held in Tirana from 2 to 4 November 2015, as you reflect on the theme “Discrimination, persecution, martyrdom: following Christ together”. In a particular way, I wish to greet our brothers and sisters of different Christian traditions who represent communities suffering for their profession of faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. I think with great sadness of the escalating discrimination and persecution against Christians in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and elsewhere throughout the world. Your gathering shows that, as Christians, we are not indifferent to our suffering brothers and sisters. In various parts of the world, the witness to Christ, even to the shedding of blood, has become a shared experience of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, Evangelicals and Pentecostals, which is deeper and stronger than the differences which still separate our Churches and Ecclesial Communities. The communio martyrum is the greatest sign of our journeying together. At the same time, your gathering will give voice to the victims of such injustice and violence, and seek to show the path that will lead the human family out of this tragic situation. With these sentiments, I assure you of my spiritual closeness. May the martyrs of today, belonging to many Christian traditions, help us to understand that all the baptised are members of the same Body of Christ, his Church (cf. I Cor 12:12-30). Let us see this profound truth as a call to persevere on our ecumenical journey towards full and visible communion, growing more and more in love and mutual understanding.

Francis*
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/pont-messages/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20151102_messaggio-global-christian-forum.html

At the invitation of Pope Francis we should, as Catholics, invoke ALL the martyrs, whatever Christian confession they belonged to, to help the various confessions throughout the world move toward each other in the seeking of a full and visible communion, that will be the gift of the Lord.

 

[MaryT777]

I have a fondness and an esteem for the Missouri Synod Lutherans; to the extent I have had occasion to be in contact with them across the years, it has always been a positive experience from my perspective.

All those years ago, I could not have imagined we would be at the point where we are within my lifetime. The Pope going to Sweden to begin a Catholic commemoration of the Reformation seemed so implausible…but it is less than five months away.

I look forward, if the Lord gives me life, to co-presiding at one of the commemorations with a Lutheran cleric beside me…hopefully of younger vintage to whom the baton can be ceremonially past. That will be one of the most major milestones of my life because of what it signifies: a Catholic priest and Lutheran cleric co-presiding, jointly blessing. I already have the text of the service of common prayer in hand.

I will pray that the Lord gives you life long enough to be able to do as such.

God’s blessings to you,

Mary.

 

[Memaw]

Let me understand. Your definition of Protestant is that orders and sacraments are invalid. Can you provide a source for that definition? Some Orthodox do not recognize Catholic orders. Is it okay for them to refer to you as Protestant, keeping in mind that the Catholic Church has something to do with the Reformation. By the way, Anglicans had nothing to do with the “Protestant” reformation, and many of the so called Protestant churches didn’t either.

Lutheran and Anglican priests go through extensive seminary training, so that isn’t a marker for Protestant either.

The problem with the term is that it is applied in ways it was not originally defined. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that until people start to use it to imply things that have no basis in fact.

Jon

Twisting the meaning again. I never said that. The protestant revolt came first, then the loosing of Apostolic Succession resulting in invalid orders and loss of Sacraments. The Orthodox have kept the Apostolic Succession so their Sacraments are valid. The Catholic Church was not protesting against itself. King Henry VIII may not have had anything to do with Luther’s revolt but he had one of his own. Luther started the ball rolling and look at the results. I pray for a true healing of these wounds and a return to unity of all as Jesus prayed for. With God, everything is possible. To keep this situation going on and on is not what Jesus would want. God Bless, Memaw

 

[mattp0625]

Twisting the meaning again. I never said that. The protestant revolt came first, then the loosing of Apostolic Succession resulting in invalid orders and loss of Sacraments. The Orthodox have kept the Apostolic Succession so their Sacraments are valid. The Catholic Church was not protesting against itself. King Henry VIII may not have had anything to do with Luther’s revolt but he had one of his own. Luther started the ball rolling and look at the results. I pray for a true healing of these wounds and a return to unity of all as Jesus prayed for. With God, everything is possible. To keep this situation going on and on is not what Jesus would want. God Bless, Memaw

Johannes Bugenhagen and the churches of Denmark, Norway and Iceland may be something you want to look into. Once read, one can see how these orders were actually installed- aka- by force, as coordinated by Luther and Bugenhagen and supported by Christian III.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_in_Denmark%E2%80%93Norway_and_Holstein
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bugenhagen

 

[mattp0625]

I would also like to see a healing and unification, but it does not seem likely to occur with these orders installed.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t expect them to agree. That’s why they are separated

It’s not false

You didn’t respond to my question, which was,** " Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?" **

Unless you are saying that Catholics are equally involved in separation, and if that is the case, we agree.

Jon

 

[Picky_Picky]

Johannes Bugenhagen and the churches of Denmark, Norway and Iceland may be something you want to look into. Once read, one can see how these orders were actually installed- aka- by force, as coordinated by Luther and Bugenhagen and supported by Christian III.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_in_Denmark%E2%80%93Norway_and_Holstein
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bugenhagen

The situation in the Nordic and Baltic churches has changed with the results of the Porvoo agreement and the introduction of Anglican (and therefore Old Catholic) and Swedish/Finnish lines into the consecrations in other churches.

 

[JonNC]

I am quite acquainted with the Reverend Junge, actually. I have a very high regard and opinion of him and it is wonderful he will be in Lund as a co-officiant with the Pope for this historic service of common prayer and inauguration of the joint Catholic Lutheran Commemoration of the Reformation. I am happy for Martin as this is a moment of great accomplishment for him personally…being beside the Pope as the Pope’s Lutheran co-officiant at the service of Common Prayer. It is absolutely tremendous. To see this happen is, itself, a moment for every Roman Catholic to take pause and to celebrate.

As for his thoughts about an ordinariate for Lutherans…I certainly understood his concerns and I appreciate them just as I understood and appreciated Lord Williamson’s concerns and apprehensions regarding the Ordinariates created for the Anglicans. That said, i think they are useful in many ways.

At the end of the day, I think the ordinariates have been a blessing for those who have availed themselves of them – but much more they are a blessing to the Roman Church because through them, the Roman Church has incorporated into itself, into its liturgy and into its proper patrimony, gifts derived from those who were Reformers. This is an enrichment to every Catholic, even those who do not worship using the Missal of Divine Worship.

The Anglicans coming over have their own jurisdiction. Deference to their own sensibilities. They have their proper traditions, patrimony, and elements from their liturgy that are not simply preserved but held aloft as a great and singular thing.

The exact same would be true in terms of the enrichment to the Roman Church by the creation of a Lutheran Ordinariate with all the elements from their proper heritage that would thus become a part of the Roman Church.

Pope Saint John Paul II spoke relative extensively on how Catholics were helping to enrich non Catholic Churches and Ecclesial Communities just as we were being enriched by them. As he said so eloquently in Ut Unum Sint: WE ALL BELONG TO CHRIST.

There are so many interesting back stories that can be told – and I hope one day do see the light of day – about this contribution and actually other more decisive helps from the CDF. As it is, however, I was then – and am now – quite in accord with what Cardinal Ratzinger said here…not least because it meant those who were actually doing dialogue would continue to have work. And, indeed, everything was not completely resolved on the issue of justification…and that continues to blossom. The document stands as a tremendous accomplishment, which is about to be built upon in an extraordinary way.

Actually, that the JDDJ happened at all was in large measure thanks to Cardinal Ratzinger whose interventions kept it moving forward.

It is Joseph Ratzinger thoughts on the “saving presence of the Lord” in the Lutheran Eucharist in spite of the controversy concerning Order that has been a tremendous impetus forward in these last years, actually.

What is more, it is precisely Joseph Ratzinger, as Pope Benedict, who brought as head of the CDF the architect of From Conflict to Communion. The operation and interventions of the CDF, however, have radically changed since 1999.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Memaw;13958271]Twisting the meaning again. I never said that. The protestant revolt came first, then the loosing of Apostolic Succession resulting in invalid orders and loss of Sacraments.

The loosing Orders and sacraments is a matter of dispute, but that’s another thread.

The Orthodox have kept the Apostolic Succession so their Sacraments are valid.

Agreed. More point was not a question of theirs, but that some of them question yours.

The Catholic Church was not protesting against itself.

The protest from which the name protestant was not against the Catholic Church.

King Henry VIII may not have had anything to do with Luther’s revolt but he had one of his own.

and they were not part of the protest. That was my point.

Luther started the ball rolling and look at the results.

Started what ball rolling? Again, this is the problem, IMO. The Anabaptists, Zwingli, Calvin, and virtually none of the later communions and groups followed Luther. Henry VIII surely didn’t. He was considered defender of the faith for his criticism of Luther. Jan Hus obviously didn’t follow Luther.

I pray for a true healing of these wounds and a return to unity of all as Jesus prayed for. With God, everything is possible. To keep this situation going on and on is not what Jesus would want.

Now, on this we absolutely agree. I think Father Don has been addressing this very point on this thread and on others since his arrival at CAF, that the way we talk to each other, the way we view our mutual past, has a significant impact on keeping the situation going.

Jon

 

[Memaw]

You didn’t respond to my question, which was,** " Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?" **

Unless you are saying that Catholics are equally involved in separation, and if that is the case, we agree.

Jon

The Catholic Church doesn’t have to “agree” with anyone, she is the ONE, HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church founded by Jesus Christ. whom HE promised would receive the Holy Spirit and NEVER teach error. HE established the Authority of the Catholic Church and promised HE would be with it till the end of time. He gave Her the Seven Sacraments, the Pope, Apostolic Succession to guide us on our way. HE never intended there be all these splits from His Church and HE prayed for Unity. Mankind has not obeyed. While there are many sinners within the Catholic Church that have done great harm to Her, they have not destroyed the Catholic Church and NEVER will. NO ONE outside the Church will ever do so either. Martin Luther could have worked within the Church to reform the things he disagreed with but he chose to revolt instead. Many followed sad to say and brought about the Protestant Reformation. That doesn’t make it all right and so we can just go on our merry way doing whatever we want. Our world is in a crisis and denial won’t help us one bit. We need unity, prayer and TRUST in Our Lord to help us thru this. Either we are true brothers in Christ or we are not. THY Will be done. God Bless, Memaw

 

[OraLabora]

One of my favourite quotes in From Conflict to Communion:
238. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.
I seldom meet Catholics who have a mindset on ecumenism today that ante-dates the Council and the ecumenical imperative derived from it, gratefully. Such people are rare in my world.

On the occasions when I do, and if they are English speaking, I invariably say: “The struggle of the sixteenth century is over. It seems you did not get that memo.”

Ecumenism has a bit of a “tradition” in our family. First, in 1955, my Catholic francophone mother married my Anglican anglophone father, with all the proper dispensations. In those days, the marriage could not be witnessed in the church but only in the rectory, and my father had to sign a promise that the children would be brought up Catholic, which duly occurred in my case. In fact my father took his duty so seriously, that when my mother didn’t feel well which was often as she was a a bit of a hypochondriac, it was he who took me to the Catholic church for Mass, and he would keep the pew warm as I went up for communion (after I had made my first communion). It was a happy marriage and childhood, I rarely heard my parents quarrel. Alas my father died when I was 12 but that’s another story for another time.

I spent some long years (22 to be exact) outside the Church before coming home again at age 39 some 19 years ago. At the roughly the same period my unbaptized wife was baptized as an Anglican; the catalyzing event for both of us was the sudden death of her until then healthy father, a man we were both deeply fond of. We went through a few years of the zeal of the newly converted, which did nothing good for our marriage as we practically anathematized each other. After I became an oblate, we both learned to listen more, and heed the advice of my first parish priest when I came back, never EVER discuss doctrine in your marriage. Advice that was repeated by a subsequent parish priest when we finally had our marriage convalidated, but by then we’d already learned our lesson on our own and harmony reigned in the household.

We have learned over the years as we matured (a process that never stops), that as Christians, there is a lot more that joins us than divides us, specifically in the person of Christ who rises above all and breathes life into our faith. We learned that talking doctrine at our level served only to divide further, not join closer together which should be one goal of a marriage.

I agree with (name removed by moderator) that those of us who believe in the Triune God and share a valid baptism that we all merit the moniker “Christian”. Through Christ we are all brethren of a same family. Like all brothers, we (too often-believe me having raised three sons I know this) squabble and disagree on important family matters, but we should never loose sight of that brotherhood and should gather together in unity for important family events, as the Holy Father himself is leading us by his example. We should all pray for a growth in brotherhood and unity.

I also believe that we, as individual laity need to dialogue with all people and especially people of faith. But that dialogue most emphatically should not include doctrine and proselytizing. In 2009 at the the World Oblate Congress in Rome which I attended, Msgr. Andrew V. Tanya-anan, Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue gave a most excellent presentation that outlined the levels of dialogue. In his presentation he mentioned that at the lay level, dialogue consists mostly of community-building together, for example building schools and hospitals, taking care of each other as good neighbours, listening to each other and generally collaborating together on building of society. On the other hand theological dialogue shouldn’t be in the hands of amateur theologians as we are but should be carried out at the level of experts on both sides of the dialogue.

Somewhere in between, there is participation in joint prayers such as the undertakings of the Holy Father. In our community the Christian Churches do gather regularly for prayer sessions (we don’t have any organized non-Christian communities as we are a small rural community that is largely a mix of white Anglo-Saxons and French-Canadians; there are small numbers of Jewish and Muslim citizens but not enough to have mosques and synagogues).

I had a Muslim colleague at work just before I retired, and we did often dialogue together. We were both very curious about each other’s approach to prayer, as their prayer is similar to the Liturgy of the Hours in that they sanctify the day by praying at specific times throughout it. We were curious about what God meant in our lives. We were curious about each other’s families, and we had great solidarity in facing a secular workplace that was borderline hostile to faith (not the company, but many employees we worked with would openly ridicule our faith). We supported each other through prayer and encouragement during Lent and Ramadan. But never ever did we descend into “defending” each other’s doctrine. I knew something about her was different when she came to see me on a technical matter while I was praying mid-day prayer at my desk. She simply whispered “oh, I’ll come back later when you’re finished praying”. She later informed me of a little-known company policy that allowed anyone to reserve a small conference room for brief times for personal prayer. She was in fact my strongest ally in the workplace that was otherwise fairly toxic.

 

[JonNC]

=Memaw;13958583]The Catholic Church doesn’t have to “agree” with anyone, she is the ONE, HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church founded by Jesus Christ. whom HE promised would receive the Holy Spirit and NEVER teach error. HE established the Authority of the Catholic Church and promised HE would be with it till the end of time. He gave Her the Seven Sacraments, the Pope, Apostolic Succession to guide us on our way.

This is a triumphalist answer, something I believe Pope Francis as warned all of us against. I would also say that this kind of thinking leads no one closer to unity.

HE never intended there be all these splits from His Church and HE prayed for Unity. Mankind has not obeyed. While there are many sinners within the Catholic Church that have done great harm to Her, they have not destroyed the Catholic Church and NEVER will. NO ONE outside the Church will ever do so either.

I couldn’t agree more. His one Holy Church, which you and I are both members of, is forever.

Martin Luther could have worked within the Church to reform the things he disagreed with but he chose to revolt instead.

You’ve heard of the 95 Theses? They were an attempt to work within the Church to reform the corruption and abuses within the Church.

Many followed sad to say and brought about the Protestant Reformation.

Who followed him? There were many who agreed with him, and stood with him, against the abuses within the Church. Hindsight tells us he could have done so in more effective, less bombastic ways.
Others, OTOH, had their own movements.

That doesn’t make it all right and so we can just go on our merry way doing whatever we want. Our world is in a crisis and denial won’t help us one bit. We need unity, prayer and TRUST in Our Lord to help us thru this. Either we are true brothers in Christ or we are not. THY Will be done.

Amen!

Jon

 

[GKC]

The situation in the Nordic and Baltic churches has changed with the results of the Porvoo agreement and the introduction of Anglican (and therefore Old Catholic) and Swedish/Finnish lines into the consecrations in other churches.

I understand this reasoning, as you can well imagine. But while it is a change, there is no definitive reason to think it is a change that the RCC would recognize as affecting the basic issue of Orders, or apostolic succession.

 

[JonNC]

Ecumenism has a bit of a “tradition” in our family. First, in 1955, my Catholic francophone mother married my Anglican anglophone father, with all the proper dispensations. In those days, the marriage could not be witnessed in the church but only in the rectory, and my father had to sign a promise that the children would be brought up Catholic, which duly occurred in my case. In fact my father took his duty so seriously, that when my mother didn’t feel well which was often as she was a a bit of a hypochondriac, it was he who took me to the Catholic church for Mass, and he would keep the pew warm as I went up for communion (after I had made my first communion). It was a happy marriage and childhood, I rarely heard my parents quarrel. Alas my father died when I was 12 but that’s another story for another time.

I spent some long years (22 to be exact) outside the Church before coming home again at age 39 some 19 years ago. At the roughly the same period my unbaptized wife was baptized as an Anglican; the catalyzing event for both of us was the sudden death of her until then healthy father, a man we were both deeply fond of. We went through a few years of the zeal of the newly converted, which did nothing good for our marriage as we practically anathematized each other. After I became an oblate, we both learned to listen more, and heed the advice of my first parish priest when I came back, never EVER discuss doctrine in your marriage. Advice that was repeated by a subsequent parish priest when we finally had our marriage convalidated, but by then we’d already learned our lesson on our own and harmony reigned in the household.

We have learned over the years as we matured (a process that never stops), that as Christians, there is a lot more that joins us than divides us, specifically in the person of Christ who rises above all and breathes life into our faith. We learned that talking doctrine at our level served only to divide further, not join closer together which should be one goal of a marriage.

I agree with (name removed by moderator) that those of us who believe in the Triune God and share a valid baptism that we all merit the moniker “Christian”. Through Christ we are all brethren of a same family. Like all brothers, we (too often-believe me having raised three sons I know this) squabble and disagree on important family matters, but we should never loose sight of that brotherhood and should gather together in unity for important family events, as the Holy Father himself is leading us by his example. We should all pray for a growth in brotherhood and unity.

I also believe that we, as individual laity need to dialogue with all people and especially people of faith. But that dialogue most emphatically should not include doctrine and proselytizing. In 2009 at the the World Oblate Congress in Rome which I attended, Msgr. Andrew V. Tanya-anan, Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue gave a most excellent presentation that outlined the levels of dialogue. In his presentation he mentioned that at the lay level, dialogue consists mostly of community-building together, for example building schools and hospitals, taking care of each other as good neighbours, listening to each other and generally collaborating together on building of society. On the other hand theological dialogue shouldn’t be in the hands of amateur theologians as we are but should be carried out at the level of experts on both sides of the dialogue.

Somewhere in between, there is participation in joint prayers such as the undertakings of the Holy Father. In our community the Christian Churches do gather regularly for prayer sessions (we don’t have any organized non-Christian communities as we are a small rural community that is largely a mix of white Anglo-Saxons and French-Canadians; there are small numbers of Jewish and Muslim citizens but not enough to have mosques and synagogues).

I had a Muslim colleague at work just before I retired, and we did often dialogue together. We were both very curious about each other’s approach to prayer, as their prayer is similar to the Liturgy of the Hours in that they sanctify the day by praying at specific times throughout it. We were curious about what God meant in our lives. We were curious about each other’s families, and we had great solidarity in facing a secular workplace that was borderline hostile to faith (not the company, but many employees we worked with would openly ridicule our faith). We supported each other through prayer and encouragement during Lent and Ramadan. But never ever did we descend into “defending” each other’s doctrine. I knew something about her was different when she came to see me on a technical matter while I was praying mid-day prayer at my desk. She simply whispered “oh, I’ll come back later when you’re finished praying”. She later informed me of a little-known company policy that allowed anyone to reserve a small conference room for brief times for personal prayer. She was in fact my strongest ally in the workplace that was otherwise fairly toxic.

An excellent post, which I am thankful you posted.

Jon

 

[mattp0625]

The situation in the Nordic and Baltic churches has changed with the results of the Porvoo agreement and the introduction of Anglican (and therefore Old Catholic) and Swedish/Finnish lines into the consecrations in other churches.

That’s great that they agree among each other.

They still installed their orders by force and by arresting the catholic bishops.

In terms of the RCC, unification with Lutherans would be great but does not seem likely.

 

[mattp0625]

You didn’t respond to my question, which was,** " Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?" **

Unless you are saying that Catholics are equally involved in separation, and if that is the case, we agree.

Jon

Again, I don’t expect them to agree. They all formed by protesting. Luther, and then John Smyth.

They have different forms of governance and doctrines.

 

[JonNC]

Again, I don’t expect them to agree. They all formed by protesting.

You still didn’t answer the question. But let me go on.

I mentioned three different communions:
Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists. Are saying all of these formed by protesting? If so, against whom were they protesting?

They have different forms of governance and doctrines

Yes. I know that.

Jon

 

[mattp0625]

You still didn’t answer the question. But let me go on.

I mentioned three different communions:
Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists. Are saying all of these formed by protesting? If so, against whom were they protesting?

Yes. I know that.

Jon

I thought I answered quite plainly in the negative.

Yes, first Luther, then Zwingli against Luther, then Calvin, etc. etc., then Smyth protested them in regard to baptism.