Question for Lutherans

[IanS]

I guess I’m just thankful to have the Traditions and Magisterium of the Holy Mother Church to keep things like this from happening. Man’s unending need for “rugged individualism” with regards to faith and morals is going to be the end of us all.

It looks like many of the teachings of the “Great Reformer” are going through quite the reformation of their own. Which I DON’T enjoy seeing, by the way. This is what our country looks like according to Leslie Dunstan in his book “Protestantism,: Great Religions of the World” :
**
Number of U.S. Denominations**

Catholic ** 1** (Which is not a “denomination” because the Bride of Christ cannot break away from Herself)
Orthodox ** 60**
Protestant 6,161

This is as of 1985. So I’m sure it’s even worse by now. Division is always demonic no matter what side you’re on. I just don’t know when it’s going to end. Pretty soon each family or individual will have their own personal god or version of God they worship in their own personal way that makes them feel good, thus making God and His truth merely relative according to His own people. I pray that Jesus decides to put an end to all of this before it gets to that point.

 

[aria13]

IanS: The fact that the church building doesn’t have a “normal, typical” church appearance doesn’t make it a “non-church.” If I remember correctly, Christ preached on hillsides. Many early churches shared buildings. Today, many Bible camps and campgrounds have outdoor settings for worship areas. WHERE in scripture does it say that worship has to be in building? God made nature as the most perfect worship area…there are no crosses, or altars, nothing. Just beauty in all of God’s creation…and the Catholic Church frowns on this form of worship. Recently a church in this area was burned; worship will be held in an auditorium. There won’t be a cross, an altar, no pews. But it will still be church.

You’re right, God probably hasn’t changed. But the world has. His laws haven’t changed, but He never once said anything about worshipping ONLY in one way. IF you accept the music of the early church, great…this is OLD music. (I’m a music teacher, so I know it’s old.HA!) However, if you recall your history, both church and music, you will find that the composers had a hard time trying to get NEW music into the church! Remember, ALL MUSIC WAS ONCE NEW! The Lord’s Prayer was once new also! Christ allowed small children and women to come to him and worship. They were important to him, they were visible. The disciples didn’t like it because CHANGE IS BAD! Wouldn’t you rather bring people to worship with a change in worship, not a change in the message, but only in a style, then drive them away??? It drives me crazy that everyone has to be so serious during Mass, no children’s choirs, no youth choirs. No smiling allowed!! WHERE does it say in scripture that one has to be serious and solemn during worship? It doesn’t. It’s a man thing…as in human, from hundreds of years ago! Change isn’t necessarily bad, it’s going to happen. If you don’t like change, where do you park your donkey when you ride to Church??

As for Communion, when was it said that anyone was in union with Martin Luther??? or the ELCA??? Luther didn’t found the Lutheran church, the Lutheran church was founded on what he thought needed to be done in the Church to make it a more welcoming and more involving church. Not just a church for men and the educated. Worship done in the vernacular so ALL could worship together; so that people could understand the scripture readings. When I take Communion, it’s a personal time, not one that is dictated by the Church. It’s self reflection, and a time to relfect on the sacrifice that Christ made and what I am now receiving. A church can dictate to it’s member what they are to believe, and how they are to act during Communion, but if that’s what a person is thinking about, are they truly receiving the Sacrament?? It’s personal, and yes, super64, it is my opinion that the Church is not “feeding the hungry” as Christ tells us to do, when they have closed Communion. They are reaching out ONLY to those that they accept. That is NOT what Christ tells us to do. I go to Mass weekly and sit during Communion watching the lines of people going up; and I wonder how many are just going through the motions?

Ian…what do you think the pastor says during Communion at a Lutheran Church? THE EXACT SAME WORDS THAT THE PRIEST SAYS!!! You know…“take and eat, this is my body broken for you. Do this in rememberance of me. Take and drink, this is my blood shed for you…” The Lutheran worship is based entirely on Mass, it has all of the elements, and the same words.

And yes, I do agree that some of the “rock,” services are dumbied down a LOT! I enjoy the traditional services much more, BUT as a music teacher, and someone who feels that in order to reach out change is needed, I find different experiences interesting. I love contemporary Christian music, and I know this style has brought a lot of kids to Christ. Two weeks ago a young man at school told me that Christian Rap music brought him to Christ. This kid was into drugs, and he was a cutter! I’m glad that he found Christ through a form of music that I don’t really enjoy, but he does. Would you shut the door in his face if he wanted to talk to you about his faith?? Think about it.

Rosemarie: Why can’t women be pastors??? Why is it, that churches allow women to teach the children, but not the adults? A woman can be trusted to start a child on the path of Christianity, faith and the teachings of the church, but after that only a MAN can??? why is that??

littlesheep: littletired of your E?CA!!

You can’t lump all Lutheran churches together, just like you can’t put all Protestant faiths together…nor can you put all Catholic churches together as one. Apparently, you can’t even say that all believers in Christ are Christians, because someone will argue with you. Belief and faith are personal…only you know what you believe. You and God.
Blessings to all

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by aria13
WHERE does it say in scripture that one has to be serious and solemn during worship? It doesn’t. It’s a man thing

We are in the presence of a sacrifice! THAT is a serious and solemn occasion.

originally posted by aria13
Luther didn’t found the Lutheran church, the Lutheran church was founded on what he thought needed to be done in the Church to make it a more welcoming and more involving church.

Luther’s opinion and “what he thought needed to be done” had no Authority. He was a mere dissatisfied monk. His opinons bore weight only with others who, like himself, were unwilling to submit to Holy Mother Church established by Christ Himself. He COULD have worked from within the framework of The Church. He did not. He committed a great heresy and took others down with him.

originally posted by aria13
it is my opinion that the Church is not “feeding the hungry” as Christ tells us to do, when they have closed Communion. They are reaching out ONLY to those that they accept

No. Once again with “opinion”. Communion is closed only to those who are not in communion with Rome, Holy Mother Church and do not believe in The Transubstantiation.

originally posted by aria13
The Lutheran worship is based entirely on Mass, it has all of the elements, and the same words.

Without the Authority of Apostolic Succession, the words mean nothing.

orignally posted by aria13
Why can’t women be pastors???

This has been covered many times. If you want all the answers, learn about our Faith. Throwing stones with no understanding of what you are throwing them at gives you no credibility.

 

[TamaraS]

aria13:

IanS: WHERE in scripture does it say that worship has to be in building? God made nature as the most perfect worship area…there are no crosses, or altars, nothing. Just beauty in all of God’s creation…and the Catholic Church frowns on this form of worship. Recently a church in this area was burned; worship will be held in an auditorium. There won’t be a cross, an altar, no pews. But it will still be church.

I agree that nature is very beautiful and you won’t find crosses or alters out there, but for one thing, there’s a huge difference between nature and something that resembles a gymnasium. If you read about a lot of saints (as well as Pope John Paul II) you will find so many who have a great love for nature- try reading about St. Francis or St. Therese. And it’s true that the Catholic church does usually celebrate mass indoors, but often there are masses held outdoors to accomodate large crowds (such as masses that are celebrated by the Pope). Also, if need be, mass can be held in a place other than church, when very early on in my own parish, I believe mass had to be held elsewhere until we had an actual church building built. So while we may not have to have those things, we do it because in our humanness it brings us closer. My home is filled with many things that are either personal or beautiful, that I’m not afraid to say, that are a big part of what make my home a home. I guess if my home or church resembled an empty room, movie theater, or gymnasium, and they caught fire, that if it were possible to go back in just for moment, I wouldn’t feel the need to save a precious momento or treasure that I hold dear- so maybe you are better off! I’m not trying to be mean, just trying to make a point.

aria13:

You’re right, God probably hasn’t changed. But the world has.

I agree- God doesn’t change, but the world has and does continually. I prefer my lifestyle to reflect my faith and religion, not my faith and religion to reflect our ever changing (and often not for the best) culture.

aria13:

It drives me crazy that everyone has to be so serious during Mass, no children’s choirs, no youth choirs. No smiling allowed!! WHERE does it say in scripture that one has to be serious and solemn during worship?

Nobody says that smiling is against the rules during mass. If people look serious (myself included), it’s probably because we are IN AWE at this most incredible gift of the Eucharist.

aria13:

As for Communion, when was it said that anyone was in union with Martin Luther??? or the ELCA??? Luther didn’t found the Lutheran church, the Lutheran church was founded on what he thought needed to be done in the Church to make it a more welcoming and more involving church.

Yes- I also agree that Luther didn’t just found a church, but that people founded it on what Luther believed. The Lutheran church (at least the more liberal ones I’ve see- I know there are very traditional ones, so I don’t mean disrespect) does not actually practice or believe a lot of crucial things that Luther did in fact believe.

aria13:

When I take Communion, it’s a personal time, not one that is dictated by the Church. It’s self reflection, and a time to relfect on the sacrifice that Christ made and what I am now receiving. .

Again, I agree. Like I said, that’s probably why we look so serious. We are IN AWE!

aria13:

It’s personal, and yes, super64, it is my opinion that the Church is not “feeding the hungry” as Christ tells us to do, when they have closed Communion. They are reaching out ONLY to those that they accept. That is NOT what Christ tells us to do. I go to Mass weekly and sit during Communion watching the lines of people going up; and I wonder how many are just going through the motions?

Whether someone is just going through the motions or not is between that person and God. If you do not believe that the Eucharist in the Catholic Church is Christ’s Body and Blood and we’re all just robots going through the motions, why would you WANT to recieve it? I know if I wasn"t Catholic and I thought the Catholic belief was wrong or untrue, then I would try to be very polite, but I still would not accept it.
-Tamara

 

[IanS]

aria13:

IanS: The fact that the church building doesn’t have a “normal, typical” church appearance doesn’t make it a “non-church.”

I never said it was a non-church. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

aria13:

If I remember correctly, Christ preached on hillsides. Many early churches shared buildings. Today, many Bible camps and campgrounds have outdoor settings for worship areas. WHERE in scripture does it say that worship has to be in building? God made nature as the most perfect worship area…there are no crosses, or altars, nothing. Just beauty in all of God’s creation…and the Catholic Church frowns on this form of worship. Recently a church in this area was burned; worship will be held in an auditorium. There won’t be a cross, an altar, no pews. But it will still be church.

Christ also preached in Synagogues. He would quote Sacred Scripture in public but he would only read from the Sacred Scrolls within the walls of a Synagogue as was the Jewish custom. He obviously had a deep amount of respect for this practice, otherwise he would have at least protested it.

I guess I don’t understand why you feel this need for simplicity in your surroundings yet also feel the need for all the banging gongs and flashing lights. How come we decorate our own homes? Why don’t we all just live in white boxes? Does having pictures of your children in you house distract you from their true presence?

aria13:

You’re right, God probably hasn’t changed. But the world has. His laws haven’t changed, but He never once said anything about worshipping ONLY in one way.

Wrong! Just a few examples:

*2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

2 Thess 3:6 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; *

Continued…

 

[IanS]

aria13:

IF you accept the music of the early church, great…this is OLD music. (I’m a music teacher, so I know it’s old.HA!) However, if you recall your history, both church and music, you will find that the composers had a hard time trying to get NEW music into the church! Remember, ALL MUSIC WAS ONCE NEW! The Lord’s Prayer was once new also! Christ allowed small children and women to come to him and worship. They were important to him, they were visible. The disciples didn’t like it because CHANGE IS BAD! Wouldn’t you rather bring people to worship with a change in worship, not a change in the message, but only in a style, then drive them away???

Again your making assumptions about me. I like a lot of new music and don’t like many of the old-time hymns.

aria13:

It drives me crazy that everyone has to be so serious during Mass, no children’s choirs, no youth choirs.

Is it so wrong to come before the LORD with a humble and contrite heart, instead of all “pumped-up”. I don’t recall Jesus cracking too many jokes or laughing about the salvation of the human race. I know you are the musical expert here, but you couldn’t be more wrong about children singing in the Catholic Church. The Church greatly supports children singing at Mass, in fact we also have children often lector at our Church. Even Pope John Paul II once said that children singing is like praying three times.

aria13:

When I take Communion, it’s a personal time, not one that is dictated by the Church. It’s self reflection, and a time to relfect on the sacrifice that Christ made and what I am now receiving. A church can dictate to it’s member what they are to believe, and how they are to act during Communion, but if that’s what a person is thinking about, are they truly receiving the Sacrament??

Just because it’s your personal opinion doe’s not make it right.

aria13:

Ian…what do you think the pastor says during Communion at a Lutheran Church? THE EXACT SAME WORDS THAT THE PRIEST SAYS!!! You know…“take and eat, this is my body broken for you. Do this in rememberance of me. Take and drink, this is my blood shed for you…” The Lutheran worship is based entirely on Mass, it has all of the elements, and the same words.

You must mean aside from all the “cool man” stuff. Plus the pastor does not stand In persona Christi so no grace is received.

aria13:

I love contemporary Christian music, and I know this style has brought a lot of kids to Christ. Two weeks ago a young man at school told me that Christian Rap music brought him to Christ. This kid was into drugs, and he was a cutter! I’m glad that he found Christ through a form of music that I don’t really enjoy, but he does. Would you shut the door in his face if he wanted to talk to you about his faith?? Think about it.

I don’t hate music and I feel it can be a great way to introduce children to Jesus. But do you really think that some rap song is going to sustain this kid for a lifetime? If he were to come to me I would give him a big “AMEN”, then I would introduce him to the fullness of truth which is the Holy Mother Church. Not only will that sustain the body for a lifetime, it will sustain the soul forever!

Peace-Out!

 

[TamaraS]

aria13:

It’s personal, and yes, super64, it is my opinion that the Church is not “feeding the hungry” as Christ tells us to do, when they have closed Communion. They are reaching out ONLY to those that they accept.

The Church is not just reaching out to the ones that they accept- RATHER the Church is reaching out to those that ACCEPT HER! She is always reaching out to those that will accept her. If you don’t accept her you don’t receive, if you DO accept her, then come in full communion so you can receive.

Please try to not feel offended when you are not allowed to recieve when you attend a mass or if a Catholic does not receive communion at your church. I’m probably not the best one to explain this, but try to look at it this way:
When Catholics celebrate mass and receive the Eucharist we, as Christ’s Bride, the Church, are “consummating” our marriage to Christ (I hope someone here that can explain this better than me will pop in and do it!). So, that is why one cannot receive until they decide to enter the Catholic Church. It would be like me telling my daughter that it’s okay to sleep with her boyfriend before they are officially married- I would never do that! So, that also is why we as Catholic do not recieve communion at other churches. Again, using my daughter as an example, that would be like telling her it is okay to sleep with someone other than her husband. Sorry, if that seems like a tacky or imperfect way to explain, but often it is diificult, to say the least, to put into words these kinds of things.
Now, this may trigger another “argument” about the Catholic Church being the Bride versus others, but that should be for another thread (maybe this subject should be, too!)
-Tamara

 

[IanS]

I’ll tell you what aria13:

To help things get back on track I’m going to give you a big chance to talk me into joining the ELCA by answering the following questions. I would like for you to convince me that the ELCA is the best church on earth by using more than just generalized snide remarks about the Catholic Church that aren’t even true. That doesn’t help your cause much. Be specific and back up what you say. This is your big chance so don’t disappoint me:

**I want you to explain to me exactly what truths about God will be revealed to me through the ELCA that are being diabolically hidden from me by the Catholic Church.

How will the ELCA help me to grow in holiness, respect, awe, reverence, worship, and love for Jesus Christ that the Catholic Church just refuses to help me with?

In what ways will I please God as an ELCA that I simply cannot do now?**

I’ll patiently await your response.

 

[IanS]

IanS:

What lead-in sentence are you talking about? I was referring to the first sentence of the paragraph.

If it’s not holy, why would you embrace it as a part of your worship of almighty God?
What exactly is hiding the message of the gospel?

MartyL:

I’m still awaiting your response.

 

[littlesheep]

I’m still awaiting your response.

Me to

 

[TinaK]

I’ve been following this thread but trying to keep quiet. This really disturbed me, however:

MartyL:

I will also point out that the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA is also the current leader of the Lutheran World Federation. That is the largest Lutheran umbrella group out there, so it is hard to conclude that the ELCA is not really Lutheran. And no, for anybody reading this, he is not the “Lutheran pope.”

Might makes right??? Just because it is the largest means it is right? Sorry, after hanging out at elca.org for quite a long time (trying to track down a church) I have a very difficult time believing ELCA is Lutheran. That is not to say that there are not Lutherans in ELCA, but it is difficult to call ELCA a Lutheran body.
To quote Carl F. Braaten, one of ELCA’s theologians and editor of their Christian Dogmatics:

If it is true that the ELCA has become just another liberal protestant denomination, that is a condition tantamount to heresy. The most damning thing in my view that can be charged against the ELCA is that it is just another liberal protestant denomination. Are all these theologians wrong in their assessment of the ELCA?

I wish I could deny it. I have been looking for some convincing evidence to the contrary, because I am not about to cut and run. There is no place I know of where to go. I do know, however, that the kind of Lutheranism that I learned – from Nygren, Aulen, Bring, Pinomaa, Schlink, P. Brunner, Bonhoeffer, Pannenberg, Piepkorn, Quanbeck, Preus, and Lindbeck, not to mention the pious missionary teachers from whom I learned the Bible, the Catechism, and the Christian faith – and taught in a Lutheran parish and seminary for many years is now marginalized to the point of near extinction. In looking for evidence that could convincingly contradict the charge that the ELCA has become just another liberal protestant denomination, it would seem reasonable to examine what is produced by its publishing house, theological schools, magazines, publications, church council resolutions, commission statements, task force recommendations, statements and actions by its bishops. The end result is an embarrassment; there is not much there to refute the charge. pietist.blogspot.com/2005/07/braaten-blasts-hanson-and-direction.html

My apologies if I seem harsh, but I think that Carl Braaten said worse about ELCA than I did.

IanS, I think you know what my opinion is of ELCA is. What you saw was pretty mild. Check out herchurch.org/ When you go to any church site from ELCA’s, there is a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any content on the site.

TinaK

 

[TinaK]

aria13:

You’re right, God probably hasn’t changed. But the world has. His laws haven’t changed, but He never once said anything about worshipping ONLY in one way.

aria13,
Has God changed or is He the same? The phrase “God probably hasn’t changed” allows for God to change, then you say later that His Law hasn’t changed. Has He?

Actually, the world hasn’t changed that much. I refer you to Hymn 605 in The Lutheran Hymnal: “The World Is Very Evil” written c.1140 by Bernard of Morlas.
lutheran-hymnal.com/online/aTLH_Hymns10.htm
One can still say with Bernard of Morlas, “the world is very evil.” For everything that has changed, sin has not.

And really, does it matter if the world has changed? Either Truth exists or it doesn’t. Truth does not rely on what the world says.

JN 17:14-16 I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil. They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. (Douay-Rehims)

TinaK

 

[IanS]

TinaK:

IanS, I think you know what my opinion is of ELCA is. What you saw was pretty mild. Check out herchurch.org/ When you go to any church site from ELCA’s, there is a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any content on the site.

TinaK

TinaK - Thanks for showing me that. I can’t think of a more perfect example of what I was talking about in post #21. The flood gates are opening so hang on tight. The whole “goddess rosary” thing is pretty sad to see.

 

[IanS]

IanS:

I’ll tell you what aria13:

To help things get back on track I’m going to give you a big chance to talk me into joining the ELCA by answering the following questions. I would like for you to convince me that the ELCA is the best church on earth by using more than just generalized snide remarks about the Catholic Church that aren’t even true. That doesn’t help your cause much. Be specific and back up what you say. This is your big chance so don’t disappoint me:

**I want you to explain to me exactly what truths about God will be revealed to me through the ELCA that are being diabolically hidden from me by the Catholic Church.

How will the ELCA help me to grow in holiness, respect, awe, reverence, worship, and love for Jesus Christ that the Catholic Church just refuses to help me with?

In what ways will I please God as an ELCA that I simply cannot do now?**

I’ll patiently await your response.

Well, it looks like our ELCA friends have left the building, so I will open the above questions to ANY ELCA member who may be viewing. I will honestly consider anything that is told to me about the ELCA. These are some pretty basic questions that are not that hard to answer.

I don’t know. I guess If I ever had the audacity to go onto an ELCA forum I would at least know something about how to properly defend my faith and not just shut down when things got too tough. I have a lot more respect for people who will stick it out, even if I don’t agree with them.

I’m sorry to say this, but I’ve had much more lively and interesting debates with Mormons and atheists than I’ve had with the ELCA.

 

[littlesheep]

Hi IanS:

I would presume that is because they really don’t know what they believe. To them it is just bashing. I admit that sometime I get steamed when a person who is supposedly Lutheran says something that goes against the Lutheran grain. and I sometimes pull the triger without thinking.

By the way about the other Lutheran thread, I’m not shutting down. but I do need to take a break for a day or so to think and figure out how I want to give my reply in less then 5000 words. So keep watching. Let me point you to the thread I started. What Lutherans Confess here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89813 (in which I’m a little delinquent on answering some of those questions). That way we won’t mess up other peoples threads when we get to yelling at each other Blessing to you and yours.

 

[IanS]

Thanks littlesheep:

I’ll just hang out on that!

 

[aria13]

No, IanS, I have not “left the building” nor, littlesheep, am I confused on what to believe, I was just busy.

Ian: When did anyone ever say that things were being hidden from you in that Catholic Church? I certainly didn’t. To say that would be foolish and very wrong. You are obviously very strong in your Catholic beliefs. I honestly don’t think that anything that I would say could make you convert to becoming a Lutheran of any synod. Anyone that is strong in their faith and belief in Christ is a Christian, and that is what matters. This all started with you asking about the ELCA and I think wondering if ALL ELCA churches do the same kind of services as the one your family attends. I told you that not all are like that one, and that possibly that particular church could even have the liturgical, more formal worship. I believe I also said that many churches are trying very hard to reach out to everyone through all styles of worship. That’s when all heck broke loose. People got grumpy and started blasting away at all sorts of things. All ELCA churches became lumped together as doing the same thing at each and every one of them. STOP!!! Ian: were you in a city? or a rural, midwestern church. Believe me, you would not have seen that kind of a service around here, unless it was a special worship for that day. It’s far too conservative here! You can no more put all the ELCA churches together in one big ball then you can all of the Catholic Churches! Mass settings change from week to week, and from church to church. Some use organ, others use keyboard, some have a small combo. Some priests use humor in their messages, some use fire and brimstone. Some are comfortable to be speaking, others are very nervous. Some have more Latin in Mass, many avoid it. Things differ, life varies, regions in the world do things differently.

TinaK: my stating that God probably hasn’t changed isn’t that difficult to understand. He has, and does change His mind. Think about his anger and wrath at the people when he caused the flood, Soddom and Gomorrah…he wanted to destroy the world, the people…but he was “talked out of it.” His dealings with Job weren’t very kind nor loving, and he was discussing things with Satan. Even the Creation was God thinking things through. So, do I think HE’S changed. Sure, why not. He can be whatever He wants to be. Have his laws changed and what He expects from us, no.

littlesheep: You must be LCMS or Wisconsin Synod. Or remnants of LCA or ALC. Nuf said on that.

Ian: One thing that I would say that the ELCA offers members is this. (Or maybe it was just my upbringing,) but we were often told to question what we don’t understand and try to get a deeper understanding of what is being taught. It’s always been OK to question things and to think things through. As an educated person, one should want to know and understand and not just take things as “the truth” because someone in authority has told you it. To ask WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY and HOW are not sins. If you don’t agree with something, and just can’t get an answer that answers your questions, it’s OK to keep searching. Scripture was discussed and taught at very young ages through adulthood, and the teachings of the church weren’t taught until much later. In confirmation is when we started to study Luther and the ideas and ideals of the church. To question the church is an ok thing, especially if they are saying things that go against your ideas. (Such as when someone pointed out to me that the LCMS has on it’s site that the Pope is the anti-Christ.) Puh-lease!! how horrible is that!!! That I’d question, and that I’d dismiss as a falsehood. The ELCA has some things that I don’t agree with also, but I’m still a Lutheran, and I don’t feel guilty for questioning.

Blessings to all…and calm down…Life is far too short!

 

[phoebecat3]

As a former ELCA member and now a LCMS member I speak from MY experience. The ELCA church I belonged was VERYYYYYYYY liberal, literally anything goes. The pastor even said at one time, “everyone goes to heaven”. During sunday school re: Martin Luther’s saved by grace through faith-the teacher crossed out the word faith and said you didn’t need it. How could they tell someone they needed to know Jesus when the people they were so called witnessing to were “good people”.
Sure, there are conservative, true to Lutheran doctrine congregations in the ELCA, just like there are bad Catholic churches and good ones. However, in my reading and experience, the “headquarters” of the ELCA seems to be much more left wing and they are constantly bad mouthing the LCMS. I can’t tell you how many times we were told to not visit a LCMS church and I have NEVER heard those remarks from the LCMS church I’ve attended the last 6 years. The ELCA is more involved in the political realm, they ordaine women which the LCMS and WELS don’t. In my experience, the ELCA was much accepting of sinful lifestyles than the other synods. Now I’m not saying that certain lifestyles can’t come to church, in fact please come but…at my ELCA church they invited a homosexual male, who attended a church that was made up of homosexuals and his purpose at our sunday school class was to show how his lifestyle was not against what the bible teaches. So I guess you can see why I do not exactly sing the ELCA praises. I mean no disrespect, but these actually happened in my former church and other things happend after we left.

 

[IanS]

aria13:

Ian: When did anyone ever say that things were being hidden from you in that Catholic Church? I certainly didn’t. To say that would be foolish and very wrong.

I’m glad you realize the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth.

aria13:

I honestly don’t think that anything that I would say could make you convert to becoming a Lutheran of any synod.

All you have to do is answer my three very simple questions:
What truths will the ELCA reveal to me about God?
How will the ELCA make me more holy?
How does the ELCA please almighty God more than the Catholic Church?

These are the most basic questions I could come up with. I was hoping I could get something I could sink my teeth into. Instead, all I’ve received so far is an empty husk.

aria13:

Anyone that is strong in their faith and belief in Christ is a Christian, and that is what matters.

I assume you mean “faith alone”. According to what?

aria13:

This all started with you asking about the ELCA and I think wondering if ALL ELCA churches do the same kind of services as the one your family attends. I told you that not all are like that one, and that possibly that particular church could even have the liturgical, more formal worship. I believe I also said that many churches are trying very hard to reach out to everyone through all styles of worship.

If you worry more about reaching out to God than people, those who truly want to please God and not just pleasure themselves with warm fuzzies WILL follow.

aria13:

You can no more put all the ELCA churches together in one big ball then you can all of the Catholic Churches! Mass settings change from week to week, and from church to church. Some use organ, others use keyboard, some have a small combo. Some priests use humor in their messages, some use fire and brimstone. Some are comfortable to be speaking, others are very nervous. Some have more Latin in Mass, many avoid it. Things differ, life varies, regions in the world do things differently.

Watch it here. Slight variations in music style and speaking in the Catholic Church are merely cosmetic and have little meaning to God. However, the Church states very clearly what must take place in the liturgy of the Mass (reading of scripture, eucharistic prayers, ect…) . Some parishes do take it upon themselves to change the liturgy of the Mass in an attempt to pleasure the world, and they are now called “protestant”.

aria13:

Ian: One thing that I would say that the ELCA offers members is this. (Or maybe it was just my upbringing,) but we were often told to question what we don’t understand and try to get a deeper understanding of what is being taught. It’s always been OK to question things and to think things through. As an educated person, one should want to know and understand and not just take things as “the truth” because someone in authority has told you it. To ask WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY and HOW are not sins. If you don’t agree with something, and just can’t get an answer that answers your questions, it’s OK to keep searching. Scripture was discussed and taught at very young ages through adulthood, and the teachings of the church weren’t taught until much later. In confirmation is when we started to study Luther and the ideas and ideals of the church. To question the church is an ok thing, especially if they are saying things that go against your ideas. (Such as when someone pointed out to me that the LCMS has on it’s site that the Pope is the anti-Christ.) Puh-lease!! how horrible is that!!! That I’d question, and that I’d dismiss as a falsehood. The ELCA has some things that I don’t agree with also, but I’m still a Lutheran, and I don’t feel guilty for questioning.

Questioning is a sin?? According to who? There’s something you don’t know about me, I spent the better part of my life as an atheist. You don’t think I maybe had just one or two tough questions about the Catholic Church? The big difference was, the Catholic Church could actually answer them quite well. The protestant churches totally disappointed me. In fact, when I started to realize the fullness of the truth that is only in the Holy Mother Church, it about blew me away. That was about eight years ago and I’m still asking questions and still coming up amazed at what a beautiful gift Christ left for us in his Holy Bride. And I have yet to ever be labeled a sinner by any Catholic questioning anything.

By the way, there is a big difference between just enjoying a lively discussion and needing to “calm down”.

 

[littlesheep]

littlesheep: You must be LCMS or Wisconsin Synod. Or remnants of LCA or ALC. Nuf said on that

Stick around aria13, I just knew you had thicker skin then that, and get rid of the protestant word in front of Lutheran in your profile Be a Proud Lutheran. But know your stuff.here on this here board. Or you’ll get eaten alive, and not just by THEM but by me also. ?