Question for Lutherans

[TamaraS]

IanS:

TamaraS:

You have the most important job in the world which is raising your children and managing your home. There is no job in the world quite so pleasing to God as that. You are truly more concerned about pleasing God than yourself.

Hey, are you just trying to get on my good side because you have to live with me?

 

[IanS]

TamaraS:

Hey, are you just trying to get on my good side because you have to live with me?

Do I know you?? I just don’t want you to stop cooking.

One other thought I had on the male-only priest thing. Even though Jesus was a celibate male he does have a bride (and NO it’s not Mary Magdalene) it is the Holy Catholic Church He founded. That is why the Catholic Church is called the “Bride of Christ” with Jesus Christ as her bridegroom. That is why the Catholic Church is always referred to as “her” or “she”, because the Church is feminine and Jesus is masculine. The two are spiritually one and totally inseparable just like a married couple, right TamaraS?

When a man is ordained as a priest he becomes* alter Christus.* Therefore, he does the same as Christ and makes the Church his bride. So if a woman became ordained wouldn’t she become a bride of the “Bride of Christ”, and thus make it a lesbian relationship?

The Catholic Church makes it very clear that Jesus is male and the Church is female. That’s why men wanting to answer a religious vocation become married to the “Bride of Christ” and women answer a religious vocation become married to Jesus Christ, the bridegroom. What’s so wrong with being married to Him?

 

[TinaK]

aria13:

I never said that God was angry with Job. I said His actions weren’t very loving. He played with Job’s life to prove something to Satan. I question the motives. If I, as a teacher, chose to fail one child who didn’t deserve to fail, and no matter how hard he/she tried I kept failing him/her; just to prove how good of a student this child was, my job would be gone! That’s pretty much what God did. I just find it a bit caluculating…and it can make for interesting discussions.

I was just laying in bed reading this (I printed it up so I could think about it) and this combined with what TamaraS wrote hit me like a brick. I hope I make sense.

First off, I don’t think that God played with Job. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong, please.) Here’s what we find leading up:
JOB 1:6-12 Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them. And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou ? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil? And Satan answering, said: Doth Job fear God in vain ? Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth ? But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesseth thee not to thy face. Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

From this we see that God pointed Job out as an example to Satan, and Satan’s response is that Job only fears God because God has given Job plenty of things., and that should those things be gone Job wouldn’t be a faithful servant. God’s response is what really sticks out : *Behold, all that he hath is in thy [Satan’s] hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. *From this quote we know that God allowed Satan to have control over Job’s possessions. Why? To prove Job’s faithfulness. Why would God want to prove Job’s faithfulness? IMHO, the answer is found in 1 Peter 1:6-9 :
Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now, though you see him not, you believe: and believing shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

My opinion is that it was a purification of Job. That’s not to say it couldn’t have just been God making a point to Satan (wrt Satan’s “I will not serve”), but in my opinion that it goes deeper than that.
Job 38-41 is when God speaks, but due to the length I’m going to point out this specific verse from Chapter 40 (verse 3 in the DRV, verse 8 in the NIV) : Wilt thou make void my judgment : and condemn me, that thou mayst be justified? This verse makes me think that Job had an issue with pride.

My analogy would be this: Take my 19 year old half-sister, she had her son 2 months before my last one was born. She left him with his father (and his family) to go off and do her thing. This after she stole checks from our parents, forged my mother’s name (badly) and cashed them. Much more, but you get the idea. Now she is hanging out with a 45 year old ex-con. She will not listen to anyone unless she thinks that she can get something from him. I haven’t seen her since last July, but that isn’t because of me. So what do I do? Well, I have contacts and good info. My dh and I are going to do some investigating and verify her location, so we can tip off the proper authority. (She has 2 warrents out for her arrest right now – stolen checks and skipping traffic court. There’ll be a 3rd for fraud.) I don’t want to see my sister end up in jail, but if I don’t do what is in my power, she will end up dead in the street. Which is the more loving thing to do?

I’m not saying that Job and my sister could be put on the same level but that they both need(ed) purification. Puragatory, if you will. Do I make sense?

I’ll deal with the rest of your post in the AM. I want to get back to bed.

 

[TinaK]

aria13:

TinaK: I’ve never said that I hold true to all that the ELCA holds to. However, if you truly read the abortion statement that you so kindly found, it double speaks. Basically it says that neither fetus nor woman have absolute rights. It’s kind of like riding on the fence; which way do you fall?

That is my point about ELCA. I have found ELCA to consistently double speak. (I did read the entire statement — I used that quote because it was a good example of the entire document.) I don’t mean to imply that you believe everything ELCA says. You asked about specifics where I think ELCA blantently disregards God’s Law, and IMHO this is one of them. This is not an attack on what you may or may not believe. I’m finding fault with ELCA the organization.

Women clergy: Don’t you feel that you are intelligent enough to become a minister? Is that knowlege and right to preach the gospel only for men? The 12 disciples of Christ were men, true. But what about the women who also followed Him? Did Jesus tell them to “keep their mouths shut, and don’t share your experiences and the word of God with others?” Since it’s not written in scripture, it can only be speculation, but I don’t think he did. More women teach Sunday school, religion classes, etc, than men. Why do you, as a woman, think that you can only teach children, give them the basics of their faith and beliefs, give them a strong foundation, and then have to turn away from that education for adults?? I think you’re probably a very intelligent woman, and could do very well as a minister. But the Catholic church, and some Lutheran churches say otherwise.

I have a BS in Chemistry, so some people think that makes me a rocket scientist I know that I could learn Hebrew and Greek, if I had time and a teacher. I’m teaching myself Latin and Scots Gaelic, and I have French and Spanish under my belt. (I can read German enough to figure it out, but I can’t speak it.) I have self-taught myself theology as well. My pastor cringes when he sees me coming because he never knows what he’ll get hit with (Actually, he gave me an issue of First Things. The one that featured St. Therese.) So when it comes to intelligence I don’t think I’m lacking, though I’m more of a “grubber”, willing to work hard. When I was little, I always thought that being a pastor had to be the best job (next to farming, of course.) So what would stop me?

Vocation.

I could quote multiple Bible verses from St. Paul on women in the church. I’ll give you the link to what the late Dr. Alvin Barry, former president of the LCMS wrote in his “What About” series, if you want to look at that. However, my good friend St. Therese explains it best:

And yet other vocations make themselves felt–I feel called to the Priesthood and to the Apostolate --I would be a Martyr, a Doctor of the Church. I should like to accomplish the most heroic deeds–the spirit of the Crusader burns within me, and I long to die on the field of battle in defence of Holy Church.
The vocation of a Priest! With what love, my Jesus, would I bear
Thee in my hand, when my words brought Thee down from Heaven! With what love would I give Thee to souls! And yet, while longing to be a Priest, I admire and envy the humility of St. Francis of Assisi, and am drawn to imitate him by refusing the sublime dignity of the Priesthood. How reconcile these opposite tendencies?[11]
Like the Prophets and Doctors, I would be a light unto souls, I would travel to every land to preach Thy name, O my Beloved, and
raise on heathen soil the glorious standard of Thy Cross. One
mission alone would not satisfy my longings. I would spread the
Gospel to the ends of the earth, even to the most distant isles. I
would be a Missionary, not for a few years only, but, were it
possible, from the beginning of the world till the consummation of
time. Above all, I thirst for the Martyr’s crown. It was the
desire of my earliest days, and the desire has deepened with the
years passed in the Carmel’s narrow cell. But this too is folly,
since I do not sigh for one torment; I need them all to slake my
thirst. Like Thee, O Adorable Spouse, I would be scourged, I would be crucified! I would be flayed like St. Bartholomew, plunged into boiling oil like St. John, or, like St. Ignatius of Antioch, ground by the teeth of wild beasts into a bread worthy of God.[12]
With St. Agnes and St. Cecilia I would offer my neck to the sword of the executioner, and like Joan of Arc I would murmur the name of Jesus at the stake.

(con’t)

 

[TinaK]

(see previous post)

My heart thrills at the thought of the frightful tortures
Christians are to suffer at the time of Anti-Christ, and I long to
undergo them all. Open, O Jesus, the Book of Life, in which are
written the deeds of Thy Saints: all the deeds told in that book I
long to have accomplished for Thee. To such folly as this what
answer wilt Thou make? Is there on the face of this earth a soul
more feeble than mine? And yet, precisely because I am feeble, it
has delighted Thee to accede to my least and most child-like
desires, and to-day it is Thy good pleasure to realise those other
desires, more vast than the Universe. These aspirations becoming a true martyrdom, I opened, one day, the Epistles of St. Paul to
seek relief in my sufferings. My eyes fell on the 12th and 13th
chapters of the First Epistle to the Corinthians. I read that all
cannot become Apostles, Prophets, and Doctors; that the Church is composed of different members; that the eye cannot also be the hand. The answer was clear, but it did not fulfill my desires, or
give to me the peace I sought. “Then descending into the depths of my nothingness, I was so lifted up that I reached my aim.”[13]

Without being discouraged I read on, and found comfort in this
counsel: “Be zealous for the better gifts. And I show unto you a
yet more excellent way.”[14] The Apostle then explains how all
perfect gifts are nothing without Love, that Charity is the most
excellent way of going surely to God. At last I had found rest.

Meditating on the mystical Body of Holy Church, I could not
recognise myself among any of its members as described by St.
Paul, or was it not rather that I wished to recognise myself in
all? Charity provided me with the key to my vocation. I understood
that since the Church is a body composed of different members, the noblest and most important of all the organs would not be wanting. I knew that the Church has a heart, that this heart burns with love, and that it is love alone which gives life to its members. I
knew that if this love were extinguished, the Apostles would no
longer preach the Gospel, and the Martyrs would refuse to shed
their blood. I understood that love embraces all vocations, that
it is all things, and that it reaches out through all the ages,
and to the uttermost limits of the earth, because it is eternal.

Then, beside myself with joy, I cried out: “O Jesus, my Love, at
last I have found my vocation. My vocation is love! Yes, I have
found my place in the bosom of the Church, and this place, O my
God, Thou hast Thyself given to me: in the heart of the Church, my Mother, I will be LOVE! . . . Thus I shall be all things: thus
will my dream be realised. . . .”(online text can be found here)

There is a greater vocation given to women than men — Love. We see this in the example of Mary and Martha — Martha was busy but Mary sat at Jesus’ feet. When Martha complained, what did she hear? That Mary had chosen the better portion. Love.

There is a time to speak, and a time to remain silent. As St. Paul says, “As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak,but should be subordinate,as even the law says …what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:33–34,37). (from the pamphlet by Dr. Barry in above post.) At church I learn, at home (and in public) I witness. No, let me re-phrase that. At church, in public, and at home I witness. In church I am a quiet witness. I do not stand in the pulpit and preach, but in Bible class I can ask questions and help move people into deeper thought. At home and in public I am a louder witness. Yet behind all of this must remain love.

We just get to cook now.

All I could think of when I read this was the other night when my dh made supper to give me a break and there was rice involved. He can cook, but I cringe every time he cooks rice because he never uses enough water and it’s crunchy every time. So being the cook isn’t a bad thing!

Sorry I’m so long-winded.
TinaK

 

[TamaraS]

TinaK,
I think you and I must like some of the same things (except for the the whole chemistry part! ). I just finished reading “Story of a Soul” by St. Therese. I have been reading more of the saint’s writings, and I just loved this book. It is amazing reading about her “little way”. I love the part you quoted about her vocation. Some people like to use those words to say that she wanted to be a priest (but couldn’t). I think she was just trying to show how much she loved God, and how she desired to serve him in her capacity. And there is so much value in that. We can’t all have the vocations that seem to have the “power” so to speak. She did all those things that seemed so insignificant (one would have to read her book to know what I’m talking about), and now she is one of the greatest saint’s of our time.
I’ve enjoyed reading your posts here. I sincerely hope you don’t feel insulted when I say this -some non-Catholic Christians might not think that’s a compliment- (and I don’t mean to imply that you must be an exception to your denomination), but you sound more Catholic to me than some catholics I know.
-Tamara

 

[TinaK]

TamaraS:

TinaK,
I think you and I must like some of the same things (except for the the whole chemistry part! ). I just finished reading “Story of a Soul” by St. Therese. I have been reading more of the saint’s writings, and I just loved this book. It is amazing reading about her “little way”. I love the part you quoted about her vocation. Some people like to use those words to say that she wanted to be a priest (but couldn’t). I think she was just trying to show how much she loved God, and how she desired to serve him in her capacity. And there is so much value in that. We can’t all have the vocations that seem to have the “power” so to speak. She did all those things that seemed so insignificant (one would have to read her book to know what I’m talking about), and now she is one of the greatest saint’s of our time.

It’s nice to find someone I have stuff in common with I’m usually too odd-ball for most people :whacky:

Those who use her words to support women’s ordination miss the whole point of Little Therese. There is a higher calling than that of pastor or priest, and that is to be Love. As Little Therese says, *“I knew that if this love were extinguished, the Apostles would no longer preach the Gospel, and the Martyrs would refuse to shed their blood. I understood that love embraces all vocations, that it is all things, and that it reaches out through all the ages, and to the uttermost limits of the earth, because it is eternal.” *And, I think, that those who would use Little Therese as a “poster child” (if you will) like to forget that she is the greatest missionary of our time, if not of all time, and that she never once left the Lisieux Carmel nor did she disobey her superiors.

To go off-topic for a moment, I first met Little Therese in summer of 1996 during the 2nd Organic Chem class. I went looking for a little book in the library so I didn’t completely overload on the chem, and found an autobiography on one of the shelves. It was small and I’m a sucker for autobiographies, so I picked it up without looking twice — and got completely knocked off my feet. :bigyikes: I returned it two weeks later, then went looking for it again some time later and never found the book again. It must have been mis-shelved when I found it. (It was sitting next to “The Rule of St. Benedict” when I found it, and a shelf over from Luther’s Works.) I didn’t find “Story of a Soul” again until 2000 when it finally showed up in the Catholic bookstore I like to visit. Little Therese has also sent me roses a few times, but I probably should tell you about that off this thread

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts here. I sincerely hope you don’t feel insulted when I say this -some non-Catholic Christians might not think that’s a compliment- (and I don’t mean to imply that you must be an exception to your denomination), but you sound more Catholic to me than some catholics I know.
-Tamara

Thank you — I think! Part of that is from my family and church, the other part is because I’ve been reading Catholic literature for the last 12 years. I discovered in 1994 that there is some great stuff out there!

TinaK

 

[aria13]

The whole cooking thing was more example and written in jest, with humor intended. I’m from the Mid-west, and if you know anything at all about this part of the country, our churches, (and that’s ALL denominations) are known for their pot-lucks, their hotdishes, their “covered dish” foods, etc. It’s a bit of a joke here. You can find books about this, all written with humor, but all are more truth than fiction! Women cook; men carry it in and then consume mass quantities. My sweetie is a great cook. He makes me CHEESECAKES to die for!! My brothers are all excellent cooks…and more than just grilling. Personally, I love to cook, but that’s not all I’m good at.

As for women being the ones responsible for “raising the children and running the home,” Ian…puh-lease! Aren’t you a dad? Do you not help your wife with your children and around the house? Years ago, the roles of husband/wife/parents were much more defined as to masculine/feminine; but in this era, familes basically can’t live on one income, women WANT to work outside of the home, and that means that men/dads are now more than just the “father.” They are now a DAD! They care for the kids, they nurture, they go to parent/teacher conferences, concerts, games, etc. They cook, they clean, they do dishes…they share the duties of the house w/the mom. They are part of the family! THANK GOD! They’ve now proven that the love and examples of dad are just as important as those of mom. Dad’s need to be part of their child’s development and life! It nurtures the child, and hopefully will make them better people. I wouldn’t call myself a feminist, but I’m not going to be held back because I’m female. I have 2 daughters who are both striving for careers. My oldest is a first year RN, and my youngest is finishing college w/a business degree. IF we hold true to scripture and biblical times, and not listen to at least some of the “evil lies” (where did you get that, Ian?) that the feminist movements have said, we, as women, would NOT be educated past the age of 12, would be married or bought by the age of 14, could be beaten for any reason, killed for any reason, and would be considered property! I used Biblical times because Paul was quoted. He has a tendency of saying some rather cutting, or degrading remarks about women frequently. Granted, they could have been a sign of the times, but I don’t think he cared for women as thinking, learning, productive creatures. The Old Testament talks about women as equals to men; woman does not walk behind or ahead of a man, but at his side as his equal partner.

Women have been productive and important throughout history, but more now than ever before. If you take what Paul says literally about women in that scripture passage, then you need to take all scripture literally. Are we going to pluck out eyes, cut off hands, and stone people to death? How about killing the farmer for letting ground that could be worked and planted sit idle. Now we know that ground should sit idle at times to become fertilized and more productive the following year. BUT in Biblical times that was grounds for losing your land or death. Pick and choose scripture if you like, but remember where you tethered your *** when when you leave work. Times have changed, and not always for the better, but one can still live a Christian life, be very happy and love life!

Ian: I do understand that the Catholic Church is worldwide…I can’t go along with the Universal thing, on any aspect, they haven’t found churches on Mars, or Pluto any other galaxy yet, but when they do, I’ll consider it. However, I also know many nuns who have voiced their desires to become priests. I worked with a few of these. They said they “go along with” the churches position on ordination, but would still like to be a priest. Yup…they’re become more educated, more liberated, and more outspoken. But Ian, I’m not Catholic, and I don’t take all of scripture literally. I find the examples of Christ taking the church for his bride more or a parable, an example…one to help us live our lives. That’s the way I see it…that’s the way I read it. If I’m wrong or right, I’ll find out some day.

Tina: I knew you were smart!! I don’t agree with everything that the ELCA synods say, nor the LCMS, nor the Catholic, nor Jewish, or my superintendent at school, or my parents, or kids…I question a lot, and search for answers. It may not make me right, or wrong, but it makes me more educated…and someone who can analyze.

Better go…tons to do. Blessings to all! Have a great weekend!!!

 

[IanS]

aria13:

Ian: I do understand that the Catholic Church is worldwide…I can’t go along with the Universal thing, on any aspect, they haven’t found churches on Mars, or Pluto any other galaxy yet, but when they do, I’ll consider it. QUOTE]
Honestly, I just don’t even know what to think or how to respond to this kind of comment.

aria13:

However, I also know many nuns who have voiced their desires to become priests. I worked with a few of these. They said they “go along with” the churches position on ordination, but would still like to be a priest. Yup…they’re become more educated, more liberated, and more outspoken. QUOTE]
For one thing, there are a great many women religious that have higher educations, are very active, and still see the value in their role they already have. When they become a religious, they know what the vows are. What is that supposed to mean about them being more educated anyway? Does that imply that anyone who has a lesser education are not capable of thinking for themselves? And what you may view as being liberated can be a far cry from what others view as being liberated. Anyone who just “goes along” with ordination to be a female religious (I don’t think ordination may even be the right word, but I could be wrong), then I doubt that their “call” to be a nun is even from the Holy Spirit. It’s not just a job or position, it’s like a marriage vow. But all of this is irrelevant anyway, because only men can be priests which is dogma, which means it will never change.

aria13:

I find the examples of Christ taking the church for his bride more or a parable, an example…one to help us live our lives. That’s the way I see it…that’s the way I read it. If I’m wrong or right, I’ll find out some day.
QUOTE]
This is why a lot of other Christians do not understand Catholic beliefs and practices. We understand things differently than a lot of other Christians do. I read a great book once called “The Priviledge of Being Catholic” (by-I think- Oscar Luhkfar?) Please don"t be turned off by the title- it honestly is not at all offensive, I promise. It explains something called the Sacramental Principle, almost right in the beginning. Understanding the Sacramental Principle would probably shed a LOT of light on how and why we view things differently. I think it would be a valuable read even if you are not a Catholic.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I kind of felt like your view of me might besomething like “chauvinist pig” after reading your last post to me. Sorry if I come off that way to you, I feel safe to say that everybody else I know thinks I am one of the most easygoing people they know. I don’t make my wife stay at home and do all the cooking, cleaning, and other “women’s” work. We work together to take care of our home and family, and my wife loves her role. Take care.

 

[TinaK]

I can’t resist this:

aria13:

Ian: I do understand that the Catholic Church is worldwide…I can’t go along with the Universal thing, on any aspect, they haven’t found churches on Mars, or Pluto any other galaxy yet, but when they do, I’ll consider it.

From my Webster’s Dictionary, copyright 1988: universal adj. 1.Including, extending to, or affecting the entire or all within the world : WORLDWIDE < a universal drought><universal hunger>
Webster’s doesn’t define universal as cosmic/universe until #4.

aria13:

Years ago, the roles of husband/wife/parents were much more defined as to masculine/feminine; but in this era, familes basically can’t live on one income, women WANT to work outside of the home, and that means that men/dads are now more than just the “father.” They are now a DAD!

aria13, you live in the Midwest — did you ever live on a farm?

One of the biggest fallacies I have ever heard is that families can’t live on one income in these days. It is not difficult to do so, unless, of course, you have to have the nicest car on the block, live in the nicest home, take elaborate vacations, buy designer clothing, buy ATVs and snowmobiles… Before I get labeled, I have lived at or below poverty level all of my life (before I got married).

I also object to the statement that now “fathers” are more than they were before women worked out of the house. You ever read the “Little House” books? or Story of a Soul? These are just a couple examples, but I dare say that most men were always more “dad” than “father”. There’s always an example to the contrary, but to paint with a broad brush like that is a very feminist thing to do.

IF we hold true to scripture and biblical times, and not listen to at least some of the “evil lies” (where did you get that, Ian?) that the feminist movements have said, we, as women, would NOT be educated past the age of 12, would be married or bought by the age of 14, could be beaten for any reason, killed for any reason, and would be considered property!

Where did you get this from??? In my grandparents’ generation (born ca. 1920) it was common for boys to go to school only to the 8th grade (if that) and the girls to go to high school (unless they were from poor families and had to work out.)

One question for you aria13. I’ve been wodering, would you say that ELCA is more a social institution than a church?

Ugh, my mom’s here. I’ll finish this later.

Tina

 

[TinaK]

aria13,

Let me rephrase my question (I tried to write it too fast with my mom over): Would ELCA be a humanist church?

I ask because I get their news releases elca.org/news/index.asp and I have noticed that there seems to be much more of a focus on social issues than religious. I would think that there ought be a greater focus on religious issues, but that is me and my :twocents:

I am asking in order to understand ELCA better. This is not meant to tear down or attack ELCA, it is something I am trying to understand.

TinaK

 

[LutheranStudent]

Hey There, Tina K.
Without giving you a direct yes or no answer and thereby making sweeping generalizations about the ELCA, I think you ought to know this. The ELCA, from my perspective, simply can’t afford to be altogether religious-based. Why? Because the ELCA merger was an unstable hook-up to begin with. Founded basically upon a common to desire to ignore differences rather than pursue the truth - the ELCA still rests upon this “new tradition” of not addressing what might offend, as is evidenced by their treatment (lack thereof) of homosexuality, escatology, etc…
I was sitting in on a lecture about the canonicity of Scripture (a Wisconsin Ev. Luth. Synod lecture) when someone raised their hand about a certain idea and asked the presenter, “What does the ELCA believe about this?” The presenter responded with a disappointed smile and asked knowingly, “Anyone else want to answer this question?” A student toward the front raised his hand and said, “Nobody really knows what the ELCA believes.” Well said, the professor responded.

 

[TinaK]

Hi LutheranStudent,

That’s pretty well what I have thought about ELCA. I was hoping to get an insider’s viewpoint, but I think that isn’t going to happen.

Lately I have been reading more about humanism as it has been coming up in a lot of my circles. This thread was going strong then and I started to notice a lot of similarities. That’s why I asked.

Thanks,
TinaK

 

[davy39]

MartyL:

I am a member of an ELCA church, and I see nothing in the church that contravenes the Book of Concord. I will note, however, that unlike the LCMS, many of its theologians will back away from the staunch position that the pope represents the anti-Christ. The ELCA is also open to less literal interpretations of the Bible than more “conservative” (I hate that term in this context) synods, but that does not mean that they are not “Lutherans.”

I’ve never heard of the “Prosperity Gospel” or anything like what you said about it, in any ELCA church I’ve attended. If fact, the ELCA recently published a very funny little book it calls, “The Lutheran Handbook.” At page 136, it dismisses “theology of glory” that uses the Cross as a path to earthly treasure. The ELCA, like every synod I know of, embraces the instead the “Theology of the Cross,” which looks to Cross as the end point of sin and the utter embrace of God’s very real love for all.

I will also point out that the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA is also the current leader of the Lutheran World Federation. That is the largest Lutheran umbrella group out there, so it is hard to conclude that the ELCA is not really Lutheran. And no, for anybody reading this, he is not the “Lutheran pope.”

I will also add that in a somewhat ironic way, it is very “Lutheran” to have services that offend you (i.e.,IanS). Because Lutherans never really wanted schism, and sought only reform of some very oppressive practices in the Catholic Church, you will find that even to this day the typical ELCA traditional church service is very similar to a plain Catholic Mass. But all of that retained tradition is there as familiar, comfortable ways of worshipping that people learn from childhood, and appreciate as they age. It IS NOT required, commanded by God, or any sort of key to justification. As the Apology of the Augsburg Confession states in one of many similar texts,“This is the simple rule for interpreting tradition. We should know that they [traditions] are not required acts of worship, and yet we should observe them in the their place and without superstition in order to avoid offense [to the Gospel and God].” AAC, Art. XXVIII (yr. 1531, translation to American English, yr. 2000). So, while it is unfortunate that you might have been offended by a less traditional service, it is clear that if this particular church is taking your “city by storm,” it is not offending a lot of other people. And … they’ll hear the Gospel in their own language. Ain’t that cool? After all, preaching the Gospel in the language of the people, is VERY Lutheran indeed.

In Christ,
MartyL

I was on the Luther Quest site, and found it very enlightening to say the least. I came away with a number of impressions. 1. That Lutherans believe that we (Catholics) are all headed for hell. 2. The Pope is the anti-christ. 3. They adhere to the “faith alone” theory. 4.They consider the ELCA Lutherans in name only. They seem to be very studied in their religion. As I said, very interesting.

 

[Shibboleth]

I just found this thread and I didn’t have time to read through everything so if I reiterate some points please forgive me…

It is true that some ELCA Churches have unfortunately taken on some contemporary things in the Service but that is not all of the ELCA nor can it be limited to just one Synod. Often times what you will find is that an ELCA will have one or two High or what they consider High Liturgical services and one contemporary service. What you guys would call Norvus Ordo.

Is the ELCA Lutheran? Well that depends on how you define what is Lutheran. Are they 100% or even 80% in agreement with what Luther taught? No, but then the Lutheran Church has never considered Luther to be an infallible source. Are they in 100% agreement with the BOC (Book of Concord.) Depends on who you ask. The Lutherans see the BOC as a front end for the Bible. The BOC in and of itself has no authority but because it is based on Scripture it piggy backs off of the authority within Scripture. The LC-MS will hold that the BOC cannot be re-interpreted the ELCA will say that the BOC is not an infallible document and the writers were subject to the social environment of the day. So if a new understanding of Scripture comes along and that understanding is in disagreement with the BOC then by way of Sola Scriptura the BOC is inaccurate or at the very least they have to reinterpret what the writers meant by their statements. In response the LC_MS will say that the BOC’s interpretation is > than a new interpretation of Scripture that is in disagreement with the BOC.

It is true that the LC_MS is closer to the Catholic Church in practice but the Sola Fide theology doesn’t support many of the practices that they continue to share with the Catholic and Orthodox Church such as closed communion.

 

[IanS]

IanS:

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but this is what I’m getting at. My brother and his family go to an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) Church. A while back I was invited to a service at their church, and it seemed anything but Lutheran to me.

There were drums banging, guitars whaling, flashing lights, big jumbo screens, people waving their arms, hollering, and jumping around. There was also a baptism, again with all the special affects. I think the pastor used the words “cool” and “man” about 50 times during the baptism.

They also had communion. He held up a loaf of bread and a vase of wine (or grape juice) and quoted the Passover narrative from Matthew 26, again using words like “cool” and “man” a lot. Needless to say, I did not go up to receive, which I think they took offense too.

Also, I believe they (my brother and his wife) are getting involved with this “Prosperity Gospel” stuff along with others at their church. This is the stuff that people like Joyce Meyers and Benny Hinn are really into this and making millions.

I know it involves not speaking any negative statements such as “I am ill” or “I feel bad” because you create sickness and misery in your life by speaking these things.

It also involves the belief that God is bound by spiritual regulations which it is up to us to understand and exploit. In other words we can control God by “speaking” things (money, material goods) into existence and God must adhere to us.

I’m not saying that their church condones this, but I know they may be involved with it along with others there.

I’m sorry, but based on what little I know about Martin Luther, I just don’t see him saying “Yea, this is what I had in mind!” I know Luther was a major reformer and split away from the Church, but didn’t he also respect things like the Blessed Mother, the Saints, and the Sacraments at least somewhat?

Maybe I’m just not “cool” enough for this, but it really bothered me. I found myself wanting to scream out, “IS NOTHING SACRED ANYMORE!!!”

I’m also concerned because this church seems to be taking my city by storm.

Hi Shibboleth:

I don’t know if you read this, but this is a post I made early on in the thread. However, I’ve learned since then that my sister-in-law goes even beyond the prosperity gospel beliefs. She is convinced, and so are others at her ELCA church, that she is an intercessor with special powers to “whisper” directly into the ear of Jesus and convince him to listen to her above others. Now, I’m not saying that some people might have talents or gifts when it comes to prayer, but she is actually making this her business. People at her church are “hiring” her to pray for them so she can convince Jesus to make them successful. It looks like the old, “the more you pay me the more Jesus will bless you” deal. Apparently, this type of activity is supported by her ELCA church.

 

[Shibboleth]

Does she per chance live in the South? What it sounds like to me is that you have a Pentecostal Church calling itself ELCA. This is the problem when you do not have a diocesan Bishop that can step in and discipline the Priest (Pastor.)

This is not Lutheran theology and/or practice. For one Lutherans are overly phobic towards anything that could be considered a personal work and also the selling of anything that could be considered indulgent like would also be a big no… no….

Not that this is indulgent like but you can see where they would draw the connectors.

If this ELCA Church is up here in the Lutheran Frozen Chosen land I would be very surprised.

Anyways this would be a rogue Church and not in any way representative of the ELCA other than their lack of being able to control their Synod.

 

[IanS]

Well, I hate to tell you this, but this church is only about 260 miles south of you. I don’t know if the church officially endorses this type of activity, but here is what I do know:

My sister-in-law is heavily involved in that church.
She knows many people at the church very well, including the pastor, I’m sure.
She and many others there are involved in this “paid personal intercessor” activity.
No measures have been taken by any church leaders to put a stop to it.

Other than that, I’m just trying to stay as far away as I can.

 

[aria13]

Ian: I wrote the “universal” thing as "toungue in cheek’, not to be taken as a heavy statement. However, I don’t also don’t agree that the World Series should be called World either, because the whole world doesn’t play baseball, nor does Miss Universe represent the entire universe. I find statements like that either very conceited or narrow-minded of the human race. We take a lot for granted and assume a lot when we think that we are all that God created in the vastness of space. I guess for the Catholic Church to declare themselves the Universal Church they fall in those same feelings of “wow, aren’t we self-and over inflate.” I don’t mean to insult, it’s just my thoughts.

TinaK: if you read my post, I said Biblical times, and I was saying that we can’t take everything that the Bible says so literally. Women were property with no rights. I do wonder what the farm question was about though? are you assuming that people on farms live on one income?? Let me think…have I ever lived on a farm. I look outside right now and see, a barn! And yes, there is corn and bean stubble from harvest. The tractor is in the shed, and the combine is at the other farm. So, I guess I have. I am going to assume…not a good thing to do, but I will, …that you meant that people who farm live on one income. WHEN WAS THAT??? Certainly not now, and not for MANY years. Oh, yes, some people do get by on one income, and some families have inherited land, and that makes a nice income. You can rent, or sell if you can’t farm it all. But Tina, it’s been a very long, long time since farmers could live on one income, and one income only. I grew up in a town of 1000 people. My best friends all lived on farms. “Julies” dad farmed and drove school bus, her mom was an RN, “Carmen’s” dad farmed-grain and livestock, her mom was sec. at their church AND a bookkeeper for a business. There were many other farm friends also, but as I looked back the moms were: nurses, cooks, teachers, clerks, and the list goes on. Why did the moms work? Because the couldn’t make ends meet. And they didn’t have the long list of luxuries that you listed! They just needed food and clothing for the family. I’ve worked when my girls were growing up because I had to also. We didn’t have much at all, but we did OK. OH…and my girls were on reduced price lunches at school. Welcome to rural Minnesota! I found it funny that you brought up Little House, though. I grew up 12 miles from Walnut Grove MN. Granted, the Ingalls family didn’t live there very long, but the show was SUPPOSED to be there. Just kind of funny…oh…there are no mountains by Walnut Grove. But Tina, reread those books…they struggled, and Pa had several jobs to make ends meet…AND ma did odd jobs as well. Education was often completed by 8th grade. That had a lot to do with just how long people lived, AND how educated everyone was. Girls became teachers, yes, but they had some pretty strict rules. Teacher school was MUCH different than college!

As for the education of girls and boys…keep digging at that history of education! YOu said 1920s…look at the era, my dear. What was happening in the world at the time? What happens in the world affects education all of the time! A war can make boys quit school, and work or go off to war. Women stayed in school longer because that was what was needed at the time. College was just opening to women. Tina, I’m a teacher…my final project was the history of education and music history in public schools in the mid-west. I can continue, but I have to run

OH…I’ll answer your question about the ELCA later. But here’s a brief one. Social institution?? No…I consider my church a church. A humanist church? again…no. You are lumping all ELCA churches together. Not all run the same way. I wouldn’t do that to the LCMS. All are different, because they all have different people, thus different dynamics! You keep reading the ELCA news…I’m sure news is news related. What they are doing as a Christian church and it’s outreach. Find something else to read on ELCA if you must read, but keep up on the news.

Gotta run…off to a school…and then to do a voice lesson.

Blessings to all

 

[IanS]

aria13:

Ian: I wrote the “universal” thing as "toungue in cheek’, not to be taken as a heavy statement. However, I don’t also don’t agree that the World Series should be called World either, because the whole world doesn’t play baseball, nor does Miss Universe represent the entire universe. I find statements like that either very conceited or narrow-minded of the human race. We take a lot for granted and assume a lot when we think that we are all that God created in the vastness of space. I guess for the Catholic Church to declare themselves the Universal Church they fall in those same feelings of “wow, aren’t we self-and over inflate.” I don’t mean to insult, it’s just my thoughts.

Even though I haven’t been Catholic my whole life, I’ve been one long enough to be accused of just about everything, so it’s pretty difficult to insult me. In fact, the other day an atheist called me a “fear monger” (new one to add to the collection). However, I am confused. What on earth is, “wow, aren’t we self-and over inflate” supposed to mean? Was Jesus also being “self-and over inflate” when he came to save the whole world and not just the Jews? I’m sorry, I just don’t get it.