Question for Lutherans

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Dear Ian S,
If this church is truly governed by ELCA synod rule, there should be an arch-bishop that oversees your dioceses. You need to report this behavior, if it is indeed (and I will in good faith assume it is) factual. Properity doctrine is something completly outside Lutheranism. And if there is money being exchanged for intercessory prayer, this is grounds for a formalized ELCA revocation or discipline. More seriously, any “dude” talk during the administration of a sacrament, is considered falsification of doctrine. This would be very serious indeed for a pastor, whose Liturgical administration liscensure could be revoked for all ELCA churches. Yes, there is a trend in Protestant churches now that is bordering on false doctrine. By in large it is tolerated and chalked up as “renewal”. Most of it is harmless, and just makes us Lutherans look like buffoons. But there still is code of conduct that these organizations need to maintain in order to be called ELCA. These are serious allegations, and need to be discussed with a governing bishop.
 
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aria13:
TinaK: if you read my post, I said Biblical times, and I was saying that we can’t take everything that the Bible says so literally.
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I did read your posts. Please read my post
Women were property with no rights. I do wonder what the farm question was about though? are you assuming that people on farms live on one income?? Let me think…have I ever lived on a farm. I look outside right now and see, a barn! And yes, there is corn and bean stubble from harvest. The tractor is in the shed, and the combine is at the other farm. So, I guess I have. I am going to assume…not a good thing to do, but I will, …that you meant that people who farm live on one income. WHEN WAS THAT??? Certainly not now, and not for MANY years. Oh, yes, some people do get by on one income, and some families have inherited land, and that makes a nice income. You can rent, or sell if you can’t farm it all. But Tina, it’s been a very long, long time since farmers could live on one income, and one income only. I grew up in a town of 1000 people. My best friends all lived on farms. “Julies” dad farmed and drove school bus, her mom was an RN, “Carmen’s” dad farmed-grain and livestock, her mom was sec. at their church AND a bookkeeper for a business. There were many other farm friends also, but as I looked back the moms were: nurses, cooks, teachers, clerks, and the list goes on. Why did the moms work? Because the couldn’t make ends meet. And they didn’t have the long list of luxuries that you listed! They just needed food and clothing for the family. I’ve worked when my girls were growing up because I had to also. We didn’t have much at all, but we did OK. OH…and my girls were on reduced price lunches at school. Welcome to rural Minnesota!
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Welcome to rural Michigan. You want to tell me about hard work, or hard times, how about the fact that indoor plumbing became a reality in 1972. I grew up so dirt poor you wouldn’t know what to do if you lived like that. And I didn’t qualify for reduced lunches. You had to have money to qualify for that. If you read my post you would realize that I was making the point that people work multiple jobs for their “necessary” luxuries, not necessities. And it is quite possible to live on one income nowadays.

Please notice that there was a space inbetween my question and the paragraph to follow. I merely wondered if you lived on a farm. Yes, there was a point to the question, but by your response I realize it is wasted time for me to go into my point.
As for the education of girls and boys…keep digging at that history of education! YOu said 1920s…look at the era, my dear. What was happening in the world at the time? What happens in the world affects education all of the time! A war can make boys quit school, and work or go off to war. Women stayed in school longer because that was what was needed at the time. College was just opening to women. Tina, I’m a teacher…my final project was the history of education and music history in public schools in the mid-west. I can continue, but I have to run
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**There was no war in the 1920s!!! **WWI ended in 1918, two years before my grandparents were born. The next war can in 1941, two years *after *my grandma graduated from high school. If you really read my post you would have noticed that I said
In my grandparents’ generation (born ca. 1920) it was common for boys to go to school only to the 8th grade (if that) and the girls to go to high school (unless they were from poor families and had to work out.)
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I grew up 12 miles from Walnut Grove MN. Granted, the Ingalls family didn’t live there very long, but the show was SUPPOSED to be there. Just kind of funny…oh…there are no mountains by Walnut Grove. 🙂 But Tina, reread those books…they struggled, and Pa had several jobs to make ends meet…AND ma did odd jobs as well. Education was often completed by 8th grade. That had a lot to do with just how long people lived, AND how educated everyone was. Girls became teachers, yes, but they had some pretty strict rules. Teacher school was MUCH different than college!
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If you had read my post you would have read this:
I also object to the statement that now “fathers” are more than they were before women worked out of the house. You ever read the “Little House” books? or Story of a Soul? These are just a couple examples, but I dare say that most men were always more “dad” than “father”. There’s always an example to the contrary, but to paint with a broad brush like that is a very feminist thing to do.
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and realized that I was not making reference to how hard they worked.
 
OH…I’ll answer your question about the ELCA later. But here’s a brief one. Social institution?? No…I consider my church a church. A humanist church? again…no. You are lumping all ELCA churches together. Not all run the same way. I wouldn’t do that to the LCMS. All are different, because they all have different people, thus different dynamics! You keep reading the ELCA news…I’m sure news is news related. What they are doing as a Christian church and it’s outreach. Find something else to read on ELCA if you must read, but keep up on the news.
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At this point I’d rather you didn’t answer my question. (Oh, wait, you just did.) No, I am not lumping all ELCA churches together, merely pointing out that if ELCA is really a church body they spend less time on religion and more time on social issues. I’m sure some one would call that outreach, but when a church body is more concerned with “ELCA Presiding Bishop Urges Defeat of ‘Budget Reconciliation’ Package” over theology, well, I’m not too sure that is a church (or a synod, or whatever ELCA is). You call it whatever you want.

TinaK
 
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maxmauer:
Dear Ian S,
If this church is truly governed by ELCA synod rule, there should be an arch-bishop that oversees your dioceses. You need to report this behavior, if it is indeed (and I will in good faith assume it is) factual. Properity doctrine is something completly outside Lutheranism. And if there is money being exchanged for intercessory prayer, this is grounds for a formalized ELCA revocation or discipline. More seriously, any “dude” talk during the administration of a sacrament, is considered falsification of doctrine. This would be very serious indeed for a pastor, whose Liturgical administration liscensure could be revoked for all ELCA churches. Yes, there is a trend in Protestant churches now that is bordering on false doctrine. By in large it is tolerated and chalked up as “renewal”. Most of it is harmless, and just makes us Lutherans look like buffoons. But there still is code of conduct that these organizations need to maintain in order to be called ELCA. These are serious allegations, and need to be discussed with a governing bishop.
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. And yes, I’m not just making any of this up. From what I understand, she and the others are quite proud of what they are doing there. I’m just glad to be the “big scary Catholic” in my family, because she knows what would be said if she tried to push that garbage down my throat. Although, I am worried about other members of my family.

To be honest with you, there is enough heresy among Catholics to keep me busy for a couple lifetimes without having to worry about what the Protestants are doing. I was just wondering if it was the norm, and from what I’ve heard on this thread, it is probably not.

Peace
 
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littlesheep:
And hay! Tamara is waiting for an answer to her question to you on the What Lutherans Confess thread.

So take a deep breath and say HE can’t get to me about a dozen times. Read her question and give her a Lutheran answer not a Protestant Lutheran answer. See I take umbrage to Protestant Lutheran because it sounds like you are protesting the Lutheran Confessions. Which I don’t think you are.
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Hey Littlesheep! How did the Lutherans ever come up with the idea that the Pope is the Anti-Christ? They also believe that anybody that doesn’t believe the “faith alone” theory is headed for hell. I didn’t realize they were so anti-catholic before I got on the lutherquest thread. I will soon be leaving that thread because they have closed minds, and will not respect the opinion of anybody else. God bless!
 
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davy39:
I was on the Luther Quest site, and found it very enlightening to say the least. I came away with a number of impressions. 1. That Lutherans believe that we (Catholics) are all headed for hell. 2. The Pope is the anti-christ. 3. They adhere to the “faith alone” theory. 4.They consider the ELCA Lutherans in name only. They seem to be very studied in their religion. As I said, very interesting.
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I’ve never really gotten the whole “the Pope is the anti-christ” thing. Are all Popes the anti-christ? Was St. Peter the anti-christ? If not, at what point did this all happen? I suppose we could just as easily say that Martin Luther was the anti-christ, even though I don’t believe that.
 
I’ve never really gotten the whole “the Pope is the anti-christ” thing. Are all Popes the anti-christ? Was St. Peter the anti-christ? If not, at what point did this all happen? I suppose we could just as easily say that Martin Luther was the anti-christ, even though I don’t believe that.
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Here is an interesting site about the Lutheran perception of the papacy as the antichrist.
 
Thought this was interesting,
From the WELS Q&A site:

The doctrinal statements of the ELCA in its constituting documents state that the ELCA’s belief and practice is in agreement with Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. But we believe that a church body’s teaching is determined not only by what its constitution says but by what its seminaries teach, what its publishing houses and periodicals print, and by the public teaching which it tolerates and leaves undisciplined. We have stated that “the accepted public teaching of the ELCA departs from Scripture in almost every doctrine” on the basis of regular reading of ELCA periodicals and the publications of Augsburg-Fortress, a study of ELCA preaching, contacts with ELCA theologians in SBL and other forums, and serving a congregation which was made up of a high percentage of people who left the (E)LCA for doctrinal reasons. Further evidence of the ELCA’s departure from Lutheran doctrine is provided by the statements of “convergence” with Roman Catholicism on justification and with the Reformed on the Lord’s Supper. These statements compromise essential teachings of Scripture and expose people to the danger of receiving the Lord’s Supper to their condemnation.

We do not say that everyone in the ELCA supports all these departures from Lutheran biblical teaching, but that the diversity of theology that is allowed and even encouraged in the ELCA permits denial of scriptural inerrancy and the miracles in Scripture, denial of the virgin birth, and denial of salvation through Christ alone to become acceptable public teaching in the ELCA.
 
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