Question for Muslim women

[pismopal]

Do you think that anyone should have fought the Nazis for what they were doing to the Jews?

Your quote is somewhat mysterious but I am assuming that you mean that the killing of Nazi combatants, in self defense, during warfare, is the same as MURDER committed by Muslims who are following the dictates of Islam.
More curious to me is the example you give in your question about fighting to save Jews. How can you as a Muslim even hint that Jews should be defended when one of the central themes of contemporary Islam is the hatred of Jews and the destruction of Israel?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Your quote is somewhat mysterious but I am assuming that you mean that the killing of Nazi combatants, in self defense, during warfare, is the same as MURDER committed by Muslims who are following the dictates of Islam.
More curious to me is the example you give in your question about fighting to save Jews. How can you as a Muslim even hint that Jews should be defended when one of the central themes of contemporary Islam is the hatred of Jews and the destruction of Israel?

It’s true that part of WW2 was fighting in “self-defense” against German aggression. Hitler was trying to expand Germany.

But what I am suggesting is that Hitler’s oppression of Jews was enough of a reason for the world to rise up against him… according to Islam. Because he was oppressing the people–the Jews in particular. This is what Islam says, see 4:75

*And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” *

It’s not even self-defense here, though self-defense is also allowed in Islam. I am saying that sometimes there is justification for going to war, and when you see verses in the Qur’an which allow war, even command war, the reason is to spread justice and eliminate oppression.

So in summary, Hitler was oppressing the Jews–an injustice that Muslims would abhor.

How can you as a Muslim even hint that Jews should be defended when one of the central themes of contemporary Islam is the hatred of Jews and the destruction of Israel?

Hint? I am not hinting. I am saying outright that the Jews should have been defended. There is no theme in Islam called hatred of Jews. There is POLITICAL (not religious) tension with Israel. If you want my personal views on the subject I’d be happy to oblige, but the “destruction of Israel” is not a teaching of Islam, and never has been, and neither is hatred of Jews. That sentiment is a result of political confrontations, NOT religion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

By the way, AgnosTheist said “two wrongs don’t make a right” and I gave the example of Jews and Nazis for a particular appeal. Nazi oppression of Jews was a wrong.

“Non-violent” protests like MLK would not be the solution to that oppression. In that case war is justified, and war would not be wrong, but the right solution to an evil in the world.

 

[pismopal]

Now my question is on topic. If I was a woman and looking for a religion…and I assume the hypothetical woman has a normal point of view…that is western and no cultural ax to grind…why would I choose a religion that is at war with it’s neighbors WORLDWIDE( Thailand-Philipines-Indonesia-India-UK-USA-Iran-Iraq-Gaza-Lebanon to name a few) because the tenants of that religion are that no other form of religion is to be tolerated? I understand that my question is a little provocative but it is very difficult to ask a real question of a Muslim that is not provocative. Why pick a religion that seems to be a vehicle for Arabic supremism… a religion so warlike and intolerant?

 

[Booklover]

It’s true that part of WW2 was fighting in “self-defense” against German aggression. Hitler was trying to expand Germany.

But what I am suggesting is that Hitler’s oppression of Jews was enough of a reason for the world to rise up against him… according to Islam. Because he was oppressing the people–the Jews in particular. This is what Islam says, see 4:75

*And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” *

It’s not even self-defense here, though self-defense is also allowed in Islam. I am saying that sometimes there is justification for going to war, and when you see verses in the Qur’an which allow war, even command war, the reason is to spread justice and eliminate oppression.

So in summary, Hitler was oppressing the Jews–an injustice that Muslims would abhor.

Hint? I am not hinting. I am saying outright that the Jews should have been defended. There is no theme in Islam called hatred of Jews. There is POLITICAL (not religious) tension with Israel. If you want my personal views on the subject I’d be happy to oblige, but the “destruction of Israel” is not a teaching of Islam, and never has been, and neither is hatred of Jews. That sentiment is a result of political confrontations, NOT religion.

One picture is worth a thousand words!
jihadwatch.org/Stop%20the%20Genocide.jpg

 

[Sister_Amy]

Now my question is on topic. If I was a woman and looking for a religion…and I assume the hypothetical woman has a normal point of view…that is western and no cultural ax to grind…why would I choose **a religion that is at war with it’s neighbors **WORLDWIDE( Thailand-Philipines-Indonesia-India-UK-USA-Iran-Iraq-Gaza-Lebanon to name a few) because the tenants of that religion are that no other form of religion is to be tolerated? I understand that my question is a little provocative but it is very difficult to ask a real question of a Muslim that is not provocative. Why pick a religion that seems to be a vehicle for Arabic supremism… a religion so warlike and intolerant?

First of all, a religion cannot be at war with its neighbors. You listed countries. Countries can be at war with their neighbors, and they are, not religions.

Islam is a religion which demands other religions be tolerated, in fact. The Qur’an tells Muslims to treat non-Muslims with the same kindness they treat their PARENTS with–that is the general rule.

Islam is also a religion of universal brotherhood and sisterhood, and NOT supremism of any race. Muhammad even said that a black is not better than a white or a white better than a black, or an arab better than a non-arab or a non-arab better than an arab, except in piety and good deeds.

Islam seems particularly to Christians to be “warlike” only because it provides a complete way of life–including instructions on governing a society. The Christian religion does not have laws and provisions for war, but they neglect their own secular laws of their countries. Islam includes laws for the state, not just individuals. Unfortunately Muslim countries don’t want to adopt those laws because they are corrupt and power hungry and aren’t interested in the higher ideals of their religion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m offended by that picture, Booklover, and I suggest you remove it. That ANYONE would defend the persecution of any group of people is disgusting to me.

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it were manufactured by Spencer or Horowitz deliberately to smear Islam. In lieu of the wan islamo-fascism awareness week, more college students actually participated in a campaign against hate speech on campus. I signed that petition. Did you?

 

[MugenOne]

Another conspiracy theory. It is your people who hold that stupid signs praising Hitler.

 

[pismopal]

It’s true that part of WW2 was fighting in “self-defense” against German aggression. Hitler was trying to expand Germany.

But what I am suggesting is that Hitler’s oppression of Jews was enough of a reason for the world to rise up against him… according to Islam. Because he was oppressing the people–the Jews in particular. This is what Islam says, see 4:75

*And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” *

It’s not even self-defense here, though self-defense is also allowed in Islam. I am saying that sometimes there is justification for going to war, and when you see verses in the Qur’an which allow war, even command war, the reason is to spread justice and eliminate oppression.

So in summary, Hitler was oppressing the Jews–an injustice that Muslims would abhor.

Hint? I am not hinting. I am saying outright that the Jews should have been defended. There is no theme in Islam called hatred of Jews. There is POLITICAL (not religious) tension with Israel. If you want my personal views on the subject I’d be happy to oblige, but the “destruction of Israel” is not a teaching of Islam, and never has been, and neither is hatred of Jews. That sentiment is a result of political confrontations, NOT religion.

The Qur’an calls Jews and Christians “People of the Book” (disrespectfully,since that is not what we call ourselves) ,Islamic Law calls them dhimmis,which means “protected” or “guilty” people. The historic treatment of Christians and Jews by Muslims guided by Islam is not political although Islam is both political and religious, as the two cannot be separated. You have a huge misunderstanding of your own religion IMO. Islamic Law dictates that Jews and Christians may live in Islamic states but not as equals with Muslims. You do not speak for Islam or for Muslims, you speak for yourself and if you think your sentiments about defending Jews is a typical muslim thought, I think you are very wrong. I leave that for the readers to judge in view of current events. I accept my religion with all it’s baggage. Believe as you wish but it is obvious to me that you are not very objective. I wish I could apologize for being confrontational but your posts are hanging curve balls. If you are happy sister I am glad.

Qur’an(9:5; 2:191) " slay the unbeliever "

 

[Booklover]

I’m offended by that picture, Booklover, and I suggest you remove it. That ANYONE would defend the persecution of any group of people is disgusting to me.

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it were manufactured by Spencer or Horowitz deliberately to smear Islam. In lieu of the wan islamo-fascism awareness week, more college students actually participated in a campaign against hate speech on campus. I signed that petition. Did you?

I will remove it, but your accusation of Spencer and Horowitz because they’re anti Islam is wrong!

Vickie

Too late. I’ll have to ask the mods to remove it.

 

[Booklover]

I’m offended by that picture, Booklover, and I suggest you remove it. That ANYONE would defend the persecution of any group of people is disgusting to me.

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it were manufactured by Spencer or Horowitz deliberately to smear Islam. In lieu of the wan islamo-fascism awareness week, more college students actually participated in a campaign against hate speech on campus. I signed that petition. Did you?

Okay, I asked the mods to remove it, but don’t get the idea that you’re going to intimidate us into not challenging your faith! Your so-called “gentle reminder” is just another tactic to stop any discussion of Islamic beliefs.

Vickie

 

[AgnosTheist]

Do you think that anyone should have fought the Nazis for what they were doing to the Jews?

Nazis were attacked for invading other countries. Not for what they did to the jews.

If Nazis did not invade anyone, then what they are doing to the jews is their own business. What other countries can do is to use diplomacy & embargo to make them change their ways. The victims themselves are free to defend themselves if they can.

Nazi oppression of Jews was a wrong.

but its their business.

Iraqi oppression of kurds was wrong but its iraq’s business at that time.

Saudi oppression of apostates is wrong but its their business.

Indonesia oppression of east timorans was wrong but its their business.

Tell me, who should fight these nations for what they are doing to their own citizens?

 

[ZuzuBailey]

Are you sure Amy?

The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims:

“O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed.” (Koran, 9:73)

“When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended.” (Koran, 47:4)

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror.” (Koran, 5:33-34)

“When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah’s word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly.” (Koran, 17:16-17)

“In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost.” (Koran, 8:37)

“How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples.” (Koran, 21:11)

“Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them.” (Koran, 8:12)

To this list I would add a few I have found floating the net. In this case from the Koran (translated by N.J. Danwood).

“Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)

“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)

“The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)

“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people…They desire nothing but your ruin…You believe in the entire Book…When they meet you they say: ‘We, too, are believers.’ But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage.” (Surah 3:118, 119)

“The Jews and Christians say: ‘We are the children of God and His loved ones.’ Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?” (Surah 5:18)

“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

“Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons…he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home…” (Surah 8:12-)

“Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)

“If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them.” (Surah 8:51-)

“…make war on the leaders of unbelief…Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them…” (Surah 9:12-)

“It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God…” (Surah 9:17)

“Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)

“It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it.” (Surah 9:31-)

“If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men.” (Surah 9:37-)

“Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.”
(Surah 9:121-)

“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)

Can there really be any doubt in anyones mind after reading the koran and watching the news that Islam and Muslims are not only a threat but also a growing evil with what they feel to be permission and even commandments to go out and kill non muslims?

Really the time for Moslems to stop lying about what is in their book is at hand. All translations before 9/11 irregaurdless if the translater was Muslim, Arabic non muslim/Jew or European all agree roughly with each other.

Which means that the translation is accurate enough for the message to be clear.

Allah ‘s Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH’S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

 

[ZuzuBailey]

Wait theres more

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred… (8:65)

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims:

Please trust me, thats not true.

First of all Islam has a limited tolerance for christians & jews.

The rest is a little complicated, there are some conditions before a muslim is obligated to kill non-muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The Qur’an calls Jews and Christians “People of the Book” (disrespectfully,since that is not what we call ourselves) ,

The Qur’an also calls them Jews and Christians. People of the Book is not a disrespectful term at all.

Islamic Law calls them dhimmis,which means “protected” or “guilty” people.

It doesn’t mean guilty. It means Protected. They don’t have to serve in the military but are protected by it–their rights to build houses of worship, to worship freely without oppression, etc.

The historic treatment of Christians and Jews by Muslims guided by Islam is not political although Islam is both political and religious, as the two cannot be separated.

Look up the word pogrom.

You have a huge misunderstanding of your own religion IMO.

You have a huge misunderstanding of my religion.

Islamic Law dictates that Jews and Christians may live in Islamic states but not as equals with Muslims.

Duh

You do not speak for Islam or for Muslims, you speak for yourself and if you think your sentiments about defending Jews is a typical muslim thought, I think you are very wrong.

I base my sentiments on the Qur’an, on JUSTICE. I know why some Muslims dislike Jews, they dislike them because their friends and family have been displaced by them–that is POLITICAL and not RELIGIOUS issue. It has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam.

I leave that for the readers to judge in view of current events.

Since when does Fox news qualify has religious teachings?

I accept my religion with all it’s baggage. Believe as you wish but it is obvious to me that you are not very objective. I wish I could apologize for being confrontational but your posts are hanging curve balls.

My posts are hard to understand only for people who are blinded by their own hatred for Muslims. Muslims have baggage too, but I won’t justify intolerance or oppression.

Why do you?

 

[Sister_Amy]

ZuZu, it was very nice of you to go find all those verses and paste them conveniently for me.

But I have a little personal policy of not reading or responding to long copy/paste posts like that. I don’t have time. If you have questions for me, I can answer. But two or three pages of ranting–and the purpose of such a post is only to rant, not to learn–is not something I am interested in participating in.

 

[pismopal]

Sister Amy

This is a thought I have had. I think you are a nice and sincere person. I am going to say a prayer that you reconsider that decision you made. I am going to pray that you get out asap without delay or fanfare. You cannot change the rules by practicing personal good will as commendable as that could be. I mean no insult so don’t take it as such. Goodbye and G-d bless.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Okay, I asked the mods to remove it, but don’t get the idea that you’re going to intimidate us into not challenging your faith! Your so-called “gentle reminder” is just another tactic to stop any discussion of Islamic beliefs.

Vickie

I am here to discuss Islamic beliefs. Why would I try tactics to avoid such discussion?

My gentle reminder is for people like you, whose behavior in this thread (and others) is “morally ugly” (as per your post in that thread.)

There are Muslims who unfortunately act out of ignorance to Islam. That ANYONE would justify, even attempt to justify Nazi oppression of Jews, Russian oppression of Jews, American anti-Semitism, Palestinian suicide bombings–I think it’s sick. I won’t do it.

Muslims should stand up and condemn injustice in all forms. That includes injustice against Jews, and Christians.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy

This is a thought I have had. I think you are a nice and sincere person. I am going to say a prayer that you reconsider that decision you made. I am going to pray that you get out asap without delay or fanfare. You cannot change the rules by practicing personal good will as commendable as that could be. I mean no insult so don’t take it as such. Goodbye and G-d bless.

Qur’an 2:186 When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.