Question for theistic evolutionists

[Francis]

Correction here,we know satan took the form of a snake from scripture its not a metaphor or mythology as you suggest ,yea i do understand we should not take every thing literally, but in this context its the fact that satan took the form of a snake which is literal as in the scriptures.the Bible is not only proves theological truths but surpasses time, space and as it is a complement to scientific truths ,in all spheres of knowledge in the world.scriptures and the teachings of the Catholic Church are the final say.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
2 Peter 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 3:16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

 

[Cthompson]

the predators did exist before the fall, I agree with you on that, but they were, mild creatures eating grass other veggies

A lion is not a lion if it eats grass. A snake is not a snake if it does not eat mice. An animal performing its basic God-given function of eating an antelope is not evil and has nothing to do with the fall.

Sharks ate fish, cats ate mice, spiders ate flies all before the fall. This does not mean those acts are evil or the result of the fall. That’s why those animals were created in the first place.

the dinosaurs which perished after the deluge .the sin of Adam and Eve caused the trigger

There is no plausible or scientific explanation for humanoids (as we exist today) and dinosaurs living in the same ecosystem at the same time. We exist in two radically different time and environmental circumstances.

A basic understanding of the respective weather, climates, and ecosystems of dinosaurs and humanoids would demonstrate we (as in a human of Adam) could not exist with them simultaneously.

God pointed out to Cain a region to which he should flee.

Side note.
If Cain was only the fourth human to exist, why would God+ mark him (Gen 4:15) so as to not have anyone kill him. There wouldn’t be anyone else on earth to kill him. How do you explain that?
This is if you subscribe to a monogenic explanation of Adam’s existence.

Isaiah 11:6-9 6 The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.7 The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox

You take this as a literal interpretation. It more like a poetic description of a peaceful state of heaven and description of what serenity is. The book of Isaiah is not a biological explanation for the world; rather a poetic and descriptive account.

Books of the Bible are not scientific manuels; rather, they are a theological explanation for God’s working in our existence. The Bible is completely compatible with science and evolution.

 

[Francis]

This was before the fall of Adam and Eve ,before they sinned .your statement is right after the fall they did eat as you said.Regarding the Dinosaur living in the same time at different locations does’t seem impossible.even if you assume they co-existed ,they would be harmless.i was saying they perished in the deluge. Earth is a big place.
Regarding Cain,he was afraid that some one(if he could kill his brother why do we need many people to kill him was thinking of his whole life here for example even his own children can kill him) since he had his whole live a head, because of the curse of God at the end of the verse he settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

I am a Catholic i have nothing to do with heretical monogenic explanation of Adam’s existence.

Genesis 4 :10-!6 And the Lord said, “What have you done? Listen; your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground! 11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me.” 15 Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a seven fold vengeance.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him. 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Correction here. i didn’t say the Books of the Bible are scientific manuals

I agree with you on your last sentence that is they are a theological explanation for God’s working in our existence. The Bible is completely compatible with science and evolution. Chapter 1 of Genesis is proof of Creation.

 

[Cthompson]

I am a Catholic i have nothing to do with heretical monogenic explanation of Adam’s existence.

Actually, this isn’t heretical at all. Catholic scientists either subscribe to a monogenic or polygenic explanation of Adam’s existence. (I can talk about that point if you like, but it is a long explanation of the differences and causes and not really why I posted on this forum in response to you).

My question to you would be: do you believe the earth is 6,000 years old? If not, how old do you believe?

Then my follow-up to this question: when do you believe the dinosaurs last existed on this earth (a time period)?

 

[Francis]

sorry for that! didn’t mean to use that word

Yea i do believe.earth is 6,000 years old, God created the whole creation in 7 days

**That’s God’s awesome creations was done in a week just as in the Bible says if you dont think so, then here is another verse 2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. for skeptical

dinosaurs last existed on this earth, i thing before the flood .

 

[Cthompson]

sorry for that! didn’t mean to use that word

No worries friend.

Yea i do believe.earth is 6,000 years old,

dinosaurs last existed on this earth, i thing before the flood .

So, according to your logic, dinosaurs would have existed within the last 6,000 years.

One just needs to perform rudimentary research on weather patterns, climate changes, and fossil examination to realize dinosaurs could not have existed with modern day humanoids (homo sapiens sapiens).

There’s nothing else I can provide to this argument. I would encourage you to examine the biological facts that the ecosystems and climates of the last 6,000 years have not been conducive to an extremely large reptilian existence. A mammialian ecosystems, such as ours, could not survive with a reptilian-dominant ecosystem as would have existed with the dinosaurs.

God bless.
Chris

 

[Francis]

I didn’t say they existed for last 6000 years.before the the great flood .at the time of Noah while the Ark was build. at some other location on earth.
What do you think of dragons ?

Daniel Kills the Dragon
Daniel 14:23 Now in that placethere was a great dragon, which the Babylonians revered. 24 The king said to Daniel, “You cannot deny that this is a living god; so worship him.” 25 Daniel said, “I worship the Lord my God, for he is the living God. 26 But give me permission, O king, and I will kill the dragon without sword or club.” The king said, “I give you permission.”

27 Then Daniel took pitch, fat, and hair, and boiled them together and made cakes, which he fed to the dragon. The dragon ate them, and burst open.

Wisdom 11:17-18 so that they might learn that one is punished by the very things by which one sins.17 For your all-powerful hand,which created the world out of formless matter,
did not lack the means to send upon them a multitude of bears, or bold lions,18 or newly-created unknown beasts full of rage,or such as breathe out fiery breath,or belch forth a thick pall of smoke,or flash terrible sparks from their eyes;

 

[Cthompson]

Correction here. i didn’t say the Books of the Bible are scientific manuals

What do you think of dragons ?

Daniel Kills the Dragon

I’m confused because you said you do not take the books of the Bible as scientific manuals but a story about a dragon is considered scientific proof? It seems to me like you’re using the Bible as scientific reasoning.

 

[niceatheist]

There are plenty of reasons for altruism in nature

 

[Vonsalza]

There are plenty of reasons for altruism in nature

Wish I could find the thread, but Bradski (now Bradskii) and I had a good go on altruism.

If it doesn’t benefit species in a way that is greater than the cost, then it can’t exist.

Most critters are not altruistic.

Many that are are “altruistic” for clear reasons. Like when low-ranking male baboons team up to run off an alpha baboon so they can take turns breeding his mate.

Sacrificial altruism where the individual organism does not directly benefit seems largely limited to super-organisms like ant and termite colonies.

 

[Cthompson]

Bible shows historical evidence of Dragon existence during of the Babylonians reign

It would be interesting to get an authority of the church on that subject. But my meager speculation would be that the “dragon” is a theological analogy of evil, idolatry, and the worship of a false god by a pagan people.

Did Daniel really slay a dragon-like reptile? I doubt it; where is the fossil evidence for a creature in that time period? More than likely he “defeated” the pagan idolatrous worship.

I’ve also included two links, one from Catholic Answers and one from the USCCB that are worth reading and imply that the “dragon” is not what we picture that a dragon would be.

Sources:

How can a story from the book of Daniel be true if a dragon appears in it?

Daniel 14 records that some of the Babylonians around Daniel worshipped a living creature as a god, and this creature is called a drakon in the Greek version of...

www.catholic.com

Daniel, CHAPTER 14

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

 

[DetectiveNiko]

I am sorry Francis, but I am flagging your posts since you clearly stepped out of line. I asked certain rules to be followed when commenting on this thread. You have gone way offtopic , and you just throw bible verses at people without listening to what they are saying or telling you. Sorry to have to do this but I think my point is clear.

 

[Francis]

I do agree “dragon” is a theological analogy of evil, idolatry, and the worship of a false god by a pagan people,well some say they are metaphorical,but i personally believe Daniel did kills the dragon (Daniel 14: 7 Then Daniel took pitch, fat, and hair, and boiled them together and made cakes, which he fed to the dragon. The dragon ate them, and burst open.) because he had to prove to the king and also to hundreds of Babylonians,its a valid proof, before them all, other wise they would have killed him immediate.If its merely an idol he didn’t need to arrange all the stuff.Thanks for the links

 

[Francis]

My sincere apologies, I"ll stop commenting,carry on!

 

[vsedriver]

Yea i do believe.earth is 6,000 years old, God created the whole creation in 7 days

this is not in scripture

And what Peter is saying is that God’s days can be as long as a 1000 years to man or even billion years. So 7 days for creation is not 7 literal human 24 hr days. Otherwise scripture would contradict science and truth will never contradict truth.

 

[vsedriver]

dinosaurs last existed on this earth, i thing before the flood

and they existed before Adam and died out long before Adam

 

[vsedriver]

Then Daniel took pitch, fat, and hair, and boiled them together and made cakes, which he fed to the dragon

and the ‘dragon’ could easily have been a stone idol which Daniel packed with ‘cakes’ that caused it to explode. Stone idols often had a place to burn offerings in them.

Art history teaches you a lot too.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Thank you.Sorry if I was harsh, I just didn’t want this to turn into another evolution vs creationism debate or a literal vs metaphoric bible debate. I just wanted to ask the few simple questions which mostly have been answered.

 

[Francis]

No Issues

 

[Aloysium]

Coming late to this thread and taking a cursory glance at some of the questions and responses, here’s my two cents on the matter:

Evolution, as it is professed in modern society, is a hoax. But, this needs clarification as thems are fightin words.

To me it is clear that dinosaurs existed a long time ago. It is also clear that life has always sacrificed itself to life, and that this allowed for the blossoming of the diversity of organisms since the beginning.

Every individual creature is made up of an almost infinitely complex organization of mainly carbon-based molecules that provide its structure and physiology. That organization is subsumed by a soul, vegetative and sensitive (in animals) that makes it what it is as one whole being, doing what it does and being what it is as itself.

Cutting to the chase we are different from animals, having a spiritual/rational/relational/eternal soul. Each of us is a new creation, as was Adam. But, as the first man, he had no ancestors, although God may have used DNA that he had moulded over eons, or seconds, as the template from which a human form was fashioned. Eve was formed from Adam.

Evolution is a hoax because the driving force behind the flowering of life on earth is not random molecular activity, nor was all this shaped solely by the influence of survival to procreation, as evidenced by the plumage of most male birds. The fact that biology has everything to do with chemistry and ignores the life of individual animals, pretty much says it all.

If there is any evolution, in the sense of a progression, it is our journey to God, in God, Jesus Christ who is the living Way. Through us all creation moves towards Him. It is with original sin, I believe, that we introduced suffering into the world. Where self-sacrifice in the service of a blossoming harmonious creation was the order of nature, it then turned against itself, following our lead into self-interest and away from love.

Would have more to say, but this is already too long.