Question from a Seeking Jew

[Jew_Man_73]

To pray for Jews (or others) as they prepare for their own religous services is pretty much a modern thing, however, it is (or at least it should be) the norm to pray for everyone to embrace Christ and the Church. I can remember prayers for Jews as Chanakka was starting, “that they come to see the light of Christ.”

Interesting. The prayer didn’t mention anything about the Jews coming to Christ, just that G-d would be with the Jews during Passover.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Jew_Man,

Right, it could either be a Charism or simply a momentary, special grace you are receiving to help you be receptive to the Fullness of the Truth. It may wear off in a period of time and require that you believe in the Eucharist by Faith alone, like the rest of us poor sinners!

I think this little “coincidence” is more of the Holy Spirit calling out to you. Not all churches read this particular prayer on this particular day for the Jews, although it would not be unusual for a prayer to be read for anyone, as it is our responsibility to pray for the entire world, Jews included.

The Jews however do hold a special place in the heart of the Church as they are our lost brethran. We recognize ourselves as Judaism fulfilled, so certainly we miss that some of our family have not come to know Christ and we pray for these family members on a periodic basis. They are an integral part of the Mass at Good Friday, when we have 10 very long Petitions, in our parish a different member of the Parish reads each of the 10. One of them is for the Jewish people. The first year I was asked to read, I was asked to read that one. It gave me the chills when I saw what I was being asked to read because of my background!

CARose

Well, it definitely caught my attention when I heard it. I sat straight up in my seat. I didn’t look at it from that angle. It didn’t occur to me that G-d might bne trying to speak to me through that prayer. Something to ponder, I suppose. I’m going to Mass tomorrow. I’ll let you know if any unseen visitors call on me! (This is a really strange experience foir me, by the way. I’m going to Mass several times a week and I’m not really even sure why. I haven’t committed to the Catholic faith, but I want to go.)

 

[CARose]

Well, I for one am happy to have you here.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Well, I for one am happy to have you here.

CARose

Thank you.

 

[jordan]

Jew_Man_73:

Is it common to pray for the Jews during Mass? I was pleasantly surprised. Also, the lector referred to Jews as “our brothers.” I thought that was great.

It is not uncommon. Everything good that I have, and that I am, comes from God who revealed Himself in a singularly beautiful manner to, and through, the Jewish people.

God the Son is a Jew, born into a Jewish family; was circumcised according to the Law; presented in the Temple in Jerusalem, and dedicated to the Father.

Our scripture tells us:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:17-24)

Perhaps you are merely being grafted back into your own olive tree.

jb

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jordan:

It is not uncommon. Everything good that I have, and that I am, comes from God who revealed Himself in a singularly beautiful manner to, and through, the Jewish people.

God the Son is a Jew, born into a Jewish family; was circumcised according to the Law; presented in the Temple in Jerusalem, and dedicated to the Father.

Our scripture tells us:

Perhaps you are merely being grafted back into your own olive tree.

jb

I’ve never read or heard this passage before. Are the branches that were broken off due to unbelief the Jews? And the grafted in branches the Gentiles, or Christians? This is a new concept for me. Maybe I’ll ask the RCIA director, ot the priest. Thank you.

 

[Walburga]

JM I’ve spent a good deal of the evening reading this thread and it is just FASCINATING! I’ve not heard of the book you mentioned about why the Jews rejected Jesus. So I can’t help you out with that. But I AM curious about your Protestant friend! I didn’t read any of page two of this thread yet, so maybe you’ve said more about this person. But what does your Protestant friend think about your exploring the Catholic Church?

 

[Zooey]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve never read or heard this passage before. Are the branches that were broken off due to unbelief the Jews? And the grafted in branches the Gentiles, or Christians? This is a new concept for me. Maybe I’ll ask the RCIA director, ot the priest. Thank you.

That’s right!!
The interesting thing, too, about St Paul, is that he had been educated by the Rabbi Gamaliel, & he uses expressions in his letters that are,or so I am told, very classically Jewish. The way he learned them from his teacher…
I continue to pray for you & your journey.
God bless.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Walburga:

JM I’ve spent a good deal of the evening reading this thread and it is just FASCINATING! I’ve not heard of the book you mentioned about why the Jews rejected Jesus. So I can’t help you out with that. But I AM curious about your Protestant friend! I didn’t read any of page two of this thread yet, so maybe you’ve said more about this person. But what does your Protestant friend think about your exploring the Catholic Church?

Mt Protestant friend is Southern Baptist, and she doesn’t have a great love for the Catholic Church. She disagrees with many Catholic doctrines, one of the major ones being the doctrine of Mary. However, it distressed her greatly that I didn’t believe in Jesus, and she told me recently that she has been praying for me for a while. Even though she doesn’t like the Catholic Church very much, she’s happy that I’m going to church. I received an email from her tonight, and she said she’s still praying for me.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

That’s right!!
The interesting thing, too, about St Paul, is that he had been educated by the Rabbi Gamaliel, & he uses expressions in his letters that are,or so I am told, very classically Jewish. The way he learned them from his teacher…
I continue to pray for you & your journey.
God bless.

Thank you for your prayers. Did he use Jewish expressions in an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity? Or because he saw the Christian faith as an extension of Judaism?

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

Some do, some don’t, from what I understand. I don’t, and I’ve never known a Jew who does. From what I’ve learned over the years, it’s primarily the followers of Kabbalah that believe in reincarnation. (Although I’m definitely not an expert, so I might be wrong.)

oh. thank you. i heard it said on t.v., so i knew i had to ask a real jew.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

oh. thank you. i heard it said on t.v., so i knew i had to ask a real jew.

You’re welcome. If you do hear of a particular sect or branch that does believe in reincarnation (other than Kabbalah) please let *me *know. I like to be as informed as possible.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you for your prayers. Did he use Jewish expressions in an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity? Or because he saw the Christian faith as an extension of Judaism?

Definitely because he saw Jesus as the fulfilment of the Jewish anticipation of the Messiah. Paul (previously Saul) was an incredible Jewish Scholar. He was the best student of the leading Rabbi, who exceeded his Master in his learning of scripture. This is why so many people have difficulty reading Romans and Hebrews. They are jam packed full of oblique references to Old Testament. Romans was written to the Romans, so an understanding of the culture is helpful when reading. Hebrews was written to Jewish listeners.

Keep up your questions. Hopefully we can help.

CARose

 

[jordan]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve never read or heard this passage before. Are the branches that were broken off due to unbelief the Jews? And the grafted in branches the Gentiles, or Christians? This is a new concept for me. Maybe I’ll ask the RCIA director, ot the priest. Thank you.

Yes. It continues, “They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith.”

God’s people are represented by the olive tree. The rich root is our Jewish heritage, and we consider that we draw our life, our holiness, from this root. “If the root is holy, so are the branches.” I read the grafted branches to be gentile converts. The Jewish believers had no need to be grafted onto the root.

I consider this passage to be a beautiful expression of how we are related to each other. I hope others will, too.

God bless you!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Definitely because he saw Jesus as the fulfilment of the Jewish anticipation of the Messiah. Paul (previously Saul) was an incredible Jewish Scholar. He was the best student of the leading Rabbi, who exceeded his Master in his learning of scripture. This is why so many people have difficulty reading Romans and Hebrews. They are jam packed full of oblique references to Old Testament. Romans was written to the Romans, so an understanding of the culture is helpful when reading. Hebrews was written to Jewish listeners.

Keep up your questions. Hopefully we can help.

CARose

I was just wondering, are there any sources outside the New Testament that document the existence of any of these people, like Paul? If so, I would be interested in reading some.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jordan:

Yes. It continues, “They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith.”

God’s people are represented by the olive tree. The rich root is our Jewish heritage, and we consider that we draw our life, our holiness, from this root. “If the root is holy, so are the branches.” I read the grafted branches to be gentile converts. The Jewish believers had no need to be grafted onto the root.

I consider this passage to be a beautiful expression of how we are related to each other. I hope others will, too.

God bless you!

Thanks, G-d bless you too! Thank you for the explanation. Basically, I’m getting the impression that it is the Catholic belief that Jesus is the Messiah for everyone, both Jews and Gentiles. He came to save all people, regardless of their heritage. Catholics seem to believe that we are all one in Jesus, is that correct?

 

[jordan]

Jew_Man_73:

Basically, I’m getting the impression that it is the Catholic belief that Jesus is the Messiah for everyone, both Jews and Gentiles. He came to save all people, regardless of their heritage. Catholics seem to believe that we are all one in Jesus, is that correct?

We are all one in Jesus. Certainly, the Most High desires all of His creation to come freely to Him. The Messiah’s mission was specifically to the people of Israel (Mt 15: 24); however, he fulfills the prophets as a light to the nations, that “salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6b)

We pray for eyes to see and ears to hear; and with understanding, to do the will of God, who is good indeed.

jb

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

I was just wondering, are there any sources outside the New Testament that document the existence of any of these people, like Paul? If so, I would be interested in reading some.

Well, there are plenty of references from within the Church. The writings of the Early Church mention them a lot going all the way back to the late first and early second centuries (remember that Jesus died near the middle of the first century and Peter and Paul died jus past the middle of it; around 64 - 67 AD). As far as writings from outside the Church go, they might be hard to track down for they are mostly ancient Roman writers. I believe that there are written records at least of Peter and Paul whom the Romans executed. Remember that, at least in the beginning, the Romans considered Christianity as a sect of Judaism (since it arose in Judea). I don’t believe that it was until some time after the destruction of the Temple that they started to regard Christianity as a religion on its own. However, both Peter and Paul were martyred prior to that. The other Apostles were in more remote areas so there might not be as much written about them as for Peter and Paul who were martyred in Rome itself.

If I can find any specific references, I’ll let you know.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

theMutant:

To pray for Jews (or others) as they prepare for their own religous services is pretty much a modern thing, however, it is (or at least it should be) the norm to pray for everyone to embrace Christ and the Church. I can remember prayers for Jews as Chanakka was starting, “that they come to see the light of Christ.”

Interesting. The prayer didn’t mention anything about the Jews coming to Christ, just that G-d would be with the Jews during Passover.

Please note that I’m not saying that the prayer is in any way incompatible with Catholicism. We do and should pray that God will be with everyone no matter what.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jordan:

We are all one in Jesus. Certainly, the Most High desires all of His creation to come freely to Him. The Messiah’s mission was specifically to the people of Israel (Mt 15: 24); however, he fulfills the prophets as a light to the nations, that “salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6b)

We pray for eyes to see and ears to hear; and with understanding, to do the will of God, who is good indeed.

jb

Thank you. I think that’s what I’m confused about. If Jesus is the Messiah, did he specifically come only to save the Jews, or did he come to save everyone?
Here’s what I mean by this: Was Jesus’ original purpose for coming to earth only to save the Jews, and then when the Gentiles rejected him, G-d “changed His mind” and decided to extend the offer of salvation to the Gentiles as well. Or, was Jesus’ original purpose, from the very beginning, for coming to earth to offer salvation to everyone? Sorry if I keep asking hard questions, but I’m confused on this.