Question from a Seeking Jew

[jimmytoes]

Jew_Man_73:

Hi everyone.

 Can someone please go to [www.jewsforjudaism.org](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org)?  On the front page is a link called "The Real Messiah?".  Click on it.  This will take you to an online version of a Jewish apologetics book.  You can read the entire thing for free online.  Someone please do this and tell me what you think, what rebuttals you may have.  I found this book to be very convincing, so I'd love some feedback from you guys.  Thanks!

Yep, turns out to be a PDF, so I can’t quote it via copy & paste, but in re the list of Paul’s precepts,

Item 1 says Jesus is the Mesiah… predicted by the prophets. Response 1 says Prophets predicted era of peace, so it couldn’t have been Jesus.

I’m not sure which prophets they are limiting mesianic prophecy to, but Jesus is the fulfillment of ALL of the Old Testament. e.g. Abraham is told to sacrifice his son, because God want’s to test his obedience. Yet Jesus was obedient even to death on a cross. The whole of the Passover in Egypt is a prefigurement of Christ’s passion and death - from the last supper through his death on the cross where he says “I thirst”, is given wine in a sponge on a hysop staff, and then says “It is finished.” His blood is sprinkled on the cross - the door post and lintle.

Item / response 2 is more or less a rebuttal of “Once saved, allways saved”, and the Catholic Church does not hold this belief. But 2 also speaks of the Torah not being able to “save”, and again, since there are no references to specific verses it’s dificult, but for instance, in Romans chapter 3, The discussion was not about works saving or a condemnation of the law, but that circumcision was not necessary for gentiles.

Item/resp 3 Is emphatically denied by Paul in Romans 11. (especially 11:17-18) “…you do not support the root, the root supports you.” But right from the top, 11:1 “I ask then, has God rejected his people? Of course not!”

It seems that Mr Kaplan is paraphrasing and condensing, but we know not where from… I’ll try to add more later.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

Yep, turns out to be a PDF, so I can’t quote it via copy & paste, but in re the list of Paul’s precepts,

Item 1 says Jesus is the Mesiah… predicted by the prophets. Response 1 says Prophets predicted era of peace, so it couldn’t have been Jesus.

I’m not sure which prophets they are limiting mesianic prophecy to, but Jesus is the fulfillment of ALL of the Old Testament. e.g. Abraham is told to sacrifice his son, because God want’s to test his obedience. Yet Jesus was obedient even to death on a cross. The whole of the Passover in Egypt is a prefigurement of Christ’s passion and death - from the last supper through his death on the cross where he says “I thirst”, is given wine in a sponge on a hysop staff, and then says “It is finished.” His blood is sprinkled on the cross - the door post and lintle.

Item / response 2 is more or less a rebuttal of “Once saved, allways saved”, and the Catholic Church does not hold this belief. But 2 also speaks of the Torah not being able to “save”, and again, since there are no references to specific verses it’s dificult, but for instance, in Romans chapter 3, The discussion was not about works saving or a condemnation of the law, but that circumcision was not necessary for gentiles.

Item/resp 3 Is emphatically denied by Paul in Romans 11. (especially 11:17-18) “…you do not support the root, the root supports you.” But right from the top, 11:1 “I ask then, has God rejected his people? Of course not!”

It seems that Mr Kaplan is paraphrasing and condensing, but we know not where from… I’ll try to add more later.

Thanks for your insights. Post any further insights you might have too.
And as always, keep me in your prayers. I’m finding compelling evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, and I’m also finding compelling evidence that he isn’t the Messiah. I feel torn right now.

 

[Zooey]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you. I think that’s what I’m confused about. If Jesus is the Messiah, did he specifically come only to save the Jews, or did he come to save everyone?
Here’s what I mean by this: Was Jesus’ original purpose for coming to earth only to save the Jews, and then when the Gentiles rejected him, G-d “changed His mind” and decided to extend the offer of salvation to the Gentiles as well. Or, was Jesus’ original purpose, from the very beginning, for coming to earth to offer salvation to everyone? Sorry if I keep asking hard questions, but I’m confused on this.

OK, in His lifetime, Jesus concentrated on the Jewish people, because He was the Jewish Messiah. But He came to offer salvation to everyone. It’s just that it was for the Jews first, to fulfill the promises.
You see, Heaven was not open, because of the sin in the world. Jesus opened the doors of Heaven, so that people could be saved. Before He came, righteous people went to “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. They were at peace, but not in Heaven with God yet.
I think we tend to anthropomorphize God a little, when we talk about Him “changing His mind.” The point is that God had knowledge of what would happen. He knew (& knows) the future. But He has an ideal plan in place, regardless of what we may or may not do.
God bless. I am still praying for you.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

OK, in His lifetime, Jesus concentrated on the Jewish people, because He was the Jewish Messiah. But He came to offer salvation to everyone. It’s just that it was for the Jews first, to fulfill the promises.
You see, Heaven was not open, because of the sin in the world. Jesus opened the doors of Heaven, so that people could be saved. Before He came, righteous people went to “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. They were at peace, but not in Heaven with God yet.
I think we tend to anthropomorphize God a little, when we talk about Him “changing His mind.” The point is that God had knowledge of what would happen. He knew (& knows) the future. But He has an ideal plan in place, regardless of what we may or may not do.
God bless. I am still praying for you.

Thank you for your prayers, but I’m still confused. Why would G-d save the Jews through the covenant, but ignore the Gentiles and let them go to hell for so many millenia? (I’m speaking of the time period before Jesus.) So if you were born before Jesus, you were just out of luck, so to speak? Please explain.

 

[Zooey]

I forgot to say that when I read the Gospel stories about Jesus, & the Messianic prophecies that He fulfilled, I like to read them side by side with the prophets from the Jewish scriptures.
I especially find a lot in Isaiah, but all the prophetic books speak of Him.
God bless.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

I forgot to say that when I read the Gospel stories about Jesus, & the Messianic prophecies that He fulfilled, I like to read them side by side with the prophets from the Jewish scriptures.
I especially find a lot in Isaiah, but all the prophetic books speak of Him.
God bless.

Ok, thanks. G-d bless you too.

 

[Zooey]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you for your prayers, but I’m still confused. Why would G-d save the Jews through the covenant, but ignore the Gentiles and let them go to hell for so many millenia? (I’m speaking of the time period before Jesus.) So if you were born before Jesus, you were just out of luck, so to speak? Please explain.

We distinguish between the hell of suffering, & the “place of the dead”. There were no doubt some Gentiles who were also in the same place/condition. This was a matter of trusting in God, even without knowing Who He was.
But the Jews were chosen, both to show the holiness of God to the world, & to serve Him righteously, according to the law given to Moses. They were a witness to Him. There are cases in the Jewish scriptures where Gentiles were drawn to the true God by this. There were no doubt others that we do not know their names.
God bless.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you for your prayers, but I’m still confused. Why would G-d save the Jews through the covenant, but ignore the Gentiles and let them go to hell for so many millenia? (I’m speaking of the time period before Jesus.) So if you were born before Jesus, you were just out of luck, so to speak? Please explain.

No I do not think you are understanding it right.God is outside of time and is not bound to not apply the benefits of the cricifixion to them.He descended to the dead to open the gates of heaven.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

We distinguish between the hell of suffering, & the “place of the dead”. There were no doubt some Gentiles who were also in the same place/condition. This was a matter of trusting in God, even without knowing Who He was.
But the Jews were chosen, both to show the holiness of God to the world, & to serve Him righteously, according to the law given to Moses. They were a witness to Him. There are cases in the Jewish scriptures where Gentiles were drawn to the true God by this. There were no doubt others that we do not know their names.
God bless.

Ok, that makes sense. Like Rahab and Ruth?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Lisa4Catholics:

No I do not think you are understanding it right.God is outside of time and is not bound to not apply the benefits of the cricifixion to them.He descended to the dead to open the gates of heaven.

So the Gentiles could be saved too, through the future sacrifice of Christ? When Christ descended to the dead He offered them the chance to be saved?

 

[jimmytoes]

In the paragraphs following, we find a number of rebuttals against “Fundamentalist” Christian teachings, and to some extent he (Kaplan) is right… We agree on a number of points. The protestant doctrine of Faith Alone is not supported by Sacred Scripture, nor by the Catholic Church.

His assertion, however, that “there was nothing in the teachings of Jesus that would have added one iota to the strength of the Torah”, is missleading. What was missing, as Jesus pointed out on numerous occasions, was a love of the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law: Jesus was decried for healing on the Sabath; Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, but it was not always so; seeking the best seat in the synagogue, etc. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

As far as Salvation through adhereance to the commandments, no, I would say that this is not enough, but luckily for them that do, the Mesiah has already come. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and his Church. This is not to say that those outside are going to hell. Anyone who is ernestly seeking the Kingdom of God can be saved because of Christ and the Church even if they don’t believe in Him or His Church.

In general, because the book addresses protestant arguments, it is easy to find it compelling, because as I said we agree on a number of points. But he paints “Christians” into one group, and all too often, the Catholic point of view will co-inside more with the Jewish point of view.

I hope there are some chapter/verse people here who can give you better direction, but I just wanted to address the “compelling” nature of the book as a start. I’m sure there are much better arguments than my poor attempts here.

 

[4_marks]

Jew_Man_73:

Hi everyone,
I’ve been reading the post on here for quite some time, and I just decided to register today. I’ve come across the term “cafeteria Catholic” in alot of posts. Can someone please explain to me what this means? Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t know alot about the Catholic faith, I’m just starting to explore it in depth. Thanks.

A cafeteria Catholic is someone who accepts Catholic teaching on theological matters (the seven sacraments, purgatory, Mary and the Saints, etc.), but rejects much of Catholic moral teaching (opposition to artificial birth control, divorce and re-marriage without an annullment, legalized abortion, euthanasia, and so on).

One thing that separates Catholics from Protestants is that Protestants are expected and encouraged to pick and choose the moral teachings to which they will ascribe where Catholics are expected to and encouraged to listen to and obey the moral directives spelled out by the Church.

 

[Zooey]

Jew_Man_73:

Ok, that makes sense. Like Rahab and Ruth?

Yes!! We know them, because their stories are in sacred scripture.But it makes sense that there were others, whose names we do not know.
Both Rahab & Ruth are really excellent examples, because their stories are so dramatic. They recognized God, & not only were their lives altered, but they entered the history of faith by following Him.

 

[Zooey]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you for your help, but I still have a question. I don’t understand how the geneology is done. According to Jewish tradition of the time, The lineage is traced through the father, as can be seen in the book of Matthew. However, Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father. Also, it was prophesied that the Messiah would come from the line of David through Solomon, but Jesus came from the line of David through Nathan, and then through Mary. (I read all this on www.jewsforjudaism.org) If Jesus didn’t fulfill all the requirements for being the Messiah, how can he be the Messiah? I’m confused. Can you help? If anyone needs specific Scripture references, please let me know. Thanks.

The geneology in Matthew is Joseph’s line. He was Jesus’ legal father, even though not biologically. But now look in the 3rd chapter of Luke.This is Mary’s geneolgy.She, too, was descended from King David. This means that (a) Jesus had the legal descent (through Joseph, from Solomon), &(b) the biological descent, (through His mother Mary, from Nathan).
The king at the time of the captivity in Babylon was Jechoniah(sp?). He is also called simply Coniah or Conias. If you will look into the book of the prophet Jeremiah, ch.22:20-30, you will see that God told Jeremiah that there was a curse on this king & his descendants.They were never again to sit on the throne of David.This means that no one in this line could be Messiah. This was Joseph’s line,so this did not apply to Jesus!
On the other hand, it did mean that as the legal son of Joseph, Jesus was in a direct line to inherit the throne of David** legally.** It was as the son of Mary, however, that His bloodline came. Therefore, the curse from Jeremiah was not applicable to Him, as it would have been to any blood son of Joseph’s.
I hope that this helps. God bless.

 

[jordan]

Jew_Man_73:

If Jesus is the Messiah, did he specifically come only to save the Jews, or did he come to save everyone?
Here’s what I mean by this: Was Jesus’ original purpose for coming to earth only to save the Jews, and then when the Gentiles rejected him, G-d “changed His mind” and decided to extend the offer of salvation to the Gentiles as well. Or, was Jesus’ original purpose, from the very beginning, for coming to earth to offer salvation to everyone? Sorry if I keep asking hard questions, but I’m confused on this.

I am sure that there are many more qualified than I to answer your questions. I believe that we are descended from “Adam and Eve,” to whom our Creator gave special gifts. He made them like to Himself in very basic ways…creativity, wonder, wisdom, reason.

He did not make them His slaves, but gave them freedom to do His will, or to do otherwise. They chose to do otherwise, and the story of Genesis describes the impact of doing what is not Good…we came to know evil, lost paradise, and inherited pain, suffering, and death as a result.

From the earliest days, we desired to “get right” with our Creator. We remember the sacrifices of our ancestors…Abel, Noah; but most importantly, Abraham. In the mystery of our Creator revealing His love for us, the sacrifice of Abraham foreshadows Love itself. “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly…and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing…” (Gen 22: 16-18)

It is because of the singular love of Abraham, that our Creator manifests Himself in a truly amazing way to the descendants of Israel. The infinite meets the finite, the Creator becomes creation. That which was not ultimately demanded of Abraham, is ultimately given by the Father. The most intense and mysterious act of complete and boundless love…“greater love hath no man”…but our Maker has love enough for us all.

Yes. Because of the love of Abraham, Israel becomes the conduit of salvation to all of creation. The purpose of God is constant…love. He fulfills His promise to return to the children of Israel, but extends his love to the ends of the earth:

" But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. (Therefore the Lord will give them up, until the time when she who is to give birth has borne, And the rest of his brethren shall return to the children of Israel.) He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the majestic name of the LORD, his God; And they shall remain, for now his greatness shall reach to the ends of the earth; he shall be peace. (Micah 5:1-4)

So, as I read it, a promise needed to be fulfilled. As I have heard, “salvation is from the Jews.” The Father became incarnate in the Son, a Jew. He gave us the eternal covenant in His own blood, an eternal Passover sacrifice, which delivers us from slavery to sin. We need only to listen, and to love. He tells us that He will know that we love Him if we keep His commands. And, of course, He commissioned His Apostles (Jews, all) “to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 19-20)

May God bless you and keep you always.

jb

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

You’re welcome. If you do hear of a particular sect or branch that does believe in reincarnation (other than Kabbalah) please let *me *know. I like to be as informed as possible.

sure, no problem!

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

Thanks for your insights. Post any further insights you might have too.
And as always, keep me in your prayers. I’m finding compelling evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, and I’m also finding compelling evidence that he isn’t the Messiah. I feel torn right now.

we’re praying. don’t worry.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you. I think that’s what I’m confused about. If Jesus is the Messiah, did he specifically come only to save the Jews, or did he come to save everyone?
Here’s what I mean by this: Was Jesus’ original purpose for coming to earth only to save the Jews, and then when the Gentiles rejected him, G-d “changed His mind” and decided to extend the offer of salvation to the Gentiles as well. Or, was Jesus’ original purpose, from the very beginning, for coming to earth to offer salvation to everyone? Sorry if I keep asking hard questions, but I’m confused on this.

The hard questions are the best!

Catholics are taught that Jesus came as the Messiah for all mankind. He is the New Adam. Adam lost original Grace for all of his descendants. Through Jesus, that Grace is once again made available to us. However, God made a covenant with Abraham that this would be done through his descentants; it was Abraham that all the nations of the world would be blessed. Therefore, Jesus himself came to the Jews. While the New Testament records some teaching to Gentiles, He specifically, and repeatedly, stated that He was sent by the Father to the children of Abraham. When He sent out His disciples while He was still alive, he gave them specific instructions only to go out among the house of Israel. It was after His Resurrection that He told the Apostles to go out to all of the nations of the world preaching the Gospel.

So, you see, Jesus original purpose was to save everyone, but this salvation, in accordance with the Covenant with Abraham, was to come to the Gentiles through the Jews.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

I’m also still a little confused about “salvation.” I’m having a hard time understanding how believing in Jesus saves a person. I’m also having a hard time understanding why one has to believe in Jesus to be saved in the first place. Why isn’t worshiping G-d and obeying His Laws enough? Why can’t you be saved that way? (Of course, Jews believe that this is enough.) What about all the people who served Him before Jesus was born? Aren’t they saved? My RCIA director tried to explain this to me, but I still don’t understand. Anyone who can possibly help answer these questions, feel free.

P.S.: Does anyone know of any books specifically about salvation doctrine? Not books about Jews, but books about the Catholic doctrine of salvation, a good book that explains it thoroughly. Can anyone help?

To understand why Catholics believe in the necessity for a Savior you need to understand what we believe about the nature, the true nature, of Adam’s fall. When God created Adam and Eve, they possessed a grace (referred to as “original grace”) that gave them a direct relationship with God. They had free will but, unlike us, they did not have the tendancy to sin. They existed in a state of bliss and knew God directly. This was part of their nature as God intended for all of us.

However, when Adam sinned, his act constituted a rejection of that grace and a loss of the direct relationship with God. This altered human nature itself. Since they no longer possessed a direct relationship with God as part of their nature, and we inherit our nature through them, we also do not possess it. We are born in a state that is absent of that grace. That state is referred to as Original Sin.

So, the question now becomes, how is it that we can reach up to God to reestablish a relationship with Him? The answer is, simply, we cannot. Without that original grace, we do not possess a substantial part of the image and likeness of God with which He had originally implanted in man’s nature. So, we are hopeless unless God Himself acts on our behalf.

Now, in all justice, it was man who needed to reestablish the relationship with God because it was man who broke that relationship. However, man was incapable of doing this and so was lost. But God promised that the seed of Eve would crush the serpent and undo his evil act in tempting her and, through her, Adam. So, except for the promise of God, we were lost. We could follow the Law, but our acts would not be sufficient. How can our attempts to be good be sufficient when we fail so many times. I know that I’m not perfectly good - but surely nothing less than perfection could work. Therefore, we needed a Savior; someone who had the capability of successfully reaching up to God to reestablish our relationship with Him. But, in God, both justice and mercy are perfect and absolute. In His perfect mercy, He chose to reestablish this relationship on our behalf. In His perfect justice, man had to reestablish that relationship. The solution? God became man. He took upon Himself the burden of our sinfulness - all of our sinfulness. As man, He was able to reach up to the heights of Heaven and to reestablish our relationship to the Father.

Now, your other question about those who died before Him requires more time than I presently have so I will answer it later. I’ll put it briefly now and more fully then. The Catholic Church teaches that everyone can be saved through Jesus. This extends all the way back to Adam himself. Everyone who goes to Heaven enters through the gates opened by the Cross. The Church teaches that salvation through the Grace of Christ is available to all through the Church. This has been expressed in the often misunderstood phrase, “outside of the Church, there is no salvation.” However, the Church does not teach that only Catholics can go to Heaven. She teaches that the graces of Salvation are given to us through the Church. As I said, the explanation of this is long. I’ll put it in as soon as I can.

 

[MarieMarie]

What’s a normal Protestant

Just kidding. When I was a “Normal Protestant”, I too felt something was missing in my life too… I converted to Catholicism in 1998.

We are here for you, we hope you stick around and post for a while.