Question from a Seeking Jew

[chadwilliams]

Jew_Man_73:

Hi everyone.

Can someone please go to www.jewsforjudaism.org? On the front page is a link called “The Real Messiah?”. Click on it. This will take you to an online version of a Jewish apologetics book. You can read the entire thing for free online. Someone please do this and tell me what you think, what rebuttals you may have. I found this book to be very convincing, so I’d love some feedback from you guys. Thanks!

.
That book reminds me of a Jewish version of Jack Chick.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

chadwilliams:

.
That book reminds me of a Jewish version of Jack Chick.

I’ve read some of Jack Chick’s stuff in the past. Waht about this reminds you of him?

 

[jimmytoes]

chadwilliams:

.
That book reminds me of a Jewish version of Jack Chick.

Sorry Chad, no way. :nope: The book is an earnest explaination of the things that Jews come up against when approached by “Non-denominational Jews for Jesus”. It does not represent the Christian point of view, but rather the Judaic point of view.

Jew_Man,
If “The Real Messiah” is still compelling, (or was it something else on the website?) then I think it needs to be taken up a level. It’s easy for us to dismiss it as “We just don’t agree on the kind of Messiah God was going to send.”, but that doesn’t answer the questions of a seeking Jew. e.g. maybe Rosalind Moss could give it a review.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

I was just reading your post again. I agree, look what has happened! One simple question from me, and this post has evolved into this! Isn’t it great? :dancing:

Yup, things have progressed here, and so have you. The book is in the mail, you should see it on Monday.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[VociMike]

jimmytoes:

Sorry Chad, no way. :nope: The book is an earnest explaination of the things that Jews come up against when approached by “Non-denominational Jews for Jesus”. It does not represent the Christian point of view, but rather the Judaic point of view.

Just reading the introduction I can imagine a Catholic version of such a book saying the same things. I never felt that way about a Chick tract.

 

[Ignatius]

Jew_Man_73:

Why couldn’t G-d just continue to allow people to follow the Law, and forgive their sins that way, in His mercy?

My understanding is that, as promised, all mankind would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. Who knows the ways of G-d. His ways are not our ways, His ways are as far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. The reason The Almighty chose to do it in this way was perhaps because he knows human nature so well and He knew that it would ignite the passion of the whole world, beginning with Judah, who are the firstborn sons, and therefore the examples to us all. As the death passed over the children of Israel in Egypt, so, by the death of the Lamb of G-d, whose blood was spread on the lentil posts of the cross, death has now passed over all of the human race.

Peace be with you and May you have a blessed passover.

 

[theMutant]

chadwilliams:

That book reminds me of a Jewish version of Jack Chick.

I still haven’t finished reading it but I didn’t think it was that bad! It seemd to me that it basically takes the approach that Christianity is foreign to Judaism rather than looking at the fact that Christianity arose from within Judaism. Even if you reject Christianity, its origin from within Judaism is a simple fact as are the Jewish origins of Christianity’s interpretation of the messianic prophecies. Let’s face it, if their interpretation of those prophecies are right then we are dead wrong. Just as Paul said, if Christ did not rise from the dead then he and the other Apostles were preaching foolishness. Remember that the document was written to help Jews maintain their faith when approached by missionaries. When you consider methods of evangelization practiced by various Christian churches it seem to me that it is intended to help defend Jews against the likes of Jack Chick more than us (although we are certainly included).

Jack Chick, on the other hand, engages in viscious attacks against Catholicism using the most often used (and easily refuted) misrepresentations of our Faith. The same cannot be said of this document however, when you consider the various forms of doctrine Jews encounter when approached by missionaries. At least with Catholicism, we could say to Jews, “this is what the Church teaches.” You simply cannot do that with Protestantism since it is ultimately based on individual interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

Sorry Chad, no way. :nope: The book is an earnest explaination of the things that Jews come up against when approached by “Non-denominational Jews for Jesus”. It does not represent the Christian point of view, but rather the Judaic point of view.

Jew_Man,
If “The Real Messiah” is still compelling, (or was it something else on the website?) then I think it needs to be taken up a level. It’s easy for us to dismiss it as “We just don’t agree on the kind of Messiah God was going to send.”, but that doesn’t answer the questions of a seeking Jew. e.g. maybe Rosalind Moss could give it a review.

Thanks for your response. I found Chad’s comment to be quite insulting, which is why I asked him to elaborate. I notce he hasn’t responded. He has no idea what it’s like to be in my shoes. He needs to work on his attitude.
As for Rosalind Moss, it would be interesting to have her (name removed by moderator)ut. Is it possible to contact her?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Yup, things have progressed here, and so have you. The book is in the mail, you should see it on Monday.

God Bless,

CARose

Thank you, CARose. I really appreciate this! G-d bless you too!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

Just reading the introduction I can imagine a Catholic version of such a book saying the same things. I never felt that way about a Chick tract.

Good point, thanks!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ignatius:

My understanding is that, as promised, all mankind would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. Who knows the ways of G-d. His ways are not our ways, His ways are as far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. The reason The Almighty chose to do it in this way was perhaps because he knows human nature so well and He knew that it would ignite the passion of the whole world, beginning with Judah, who are the firstborn sons, and therefore the examples to us all. As the death passed over the children of Israel in Egypt, so, by the death of the Lamb of G-d, whose blood was spread on the lentil posts of the cross, death has now passed over all of the human race.

Peace be with you and May you have a blessed passover.

Thank you, peace be with you as well. I must admit, the similarities between Passover and Easter are compelling.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

I still haven’t finished reading it but I didn’t think it was that bad! It seemd to me that it basically takes the approach that Christianity is foreign to Judaism rather than looking at the fact that Christianity arose from within Judaism. Even if you reject Christianity, its origin from within Judaism is a simple fact as are the Jewish origins of Christianity’s interpretation of the messianic prophecies. Let’s face it, if their interpretation of those prophecies are right then we are dead wrong. Just as Paul said, if Christ did not rise from the dead then he and the other Apostles were preaching foolishness. Remember that the document was written to help Jews maintain their faith when approached by missionaries. When you consider methods of evangelization practiced by various Christian churches it seem to me that it is intended to help defend Jews against the likes of Jack Chick more than us (although we are certainly included).

Jack Chick, on the other hand, engages in viscious attacks against Catholicism using the most often used (and easily refuted) misrepresentations of our Faith. The same cannot be said of this document however, when you consider the various forms of doctrine Jews encounter when approached by missionaries. At least with Catholicism, we could say to Jews, “this is what the Church teaches.” You simply cannot do that with Protestantism since it is ultimately based on individual interpretation of the Bible.

Thank you for your excellent response. Catholics have had to endure misrepresentations and attacks on their faith for a long time, such as the infamous Chick tracts. Likewise Jews have had to endure the same from various Christian and Muslim groups. This book, whether right or wrong, seems to be a sincere effort to defend the Jewish faith. Comparing it to a Chick tract is insulting, and, I think, immature.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

sure, no problem!

antiaphrodite,
I’ve looked into the matter, and reincarnation is a belief held by the mystical sects of Judaism. Many Chasidic sects believe in reincarnation, for example. Kabbalah is also a mystical sect of Judaism. Outside of the mystical sects, reincarnation is not a very popular belief, which explains why I’ve never known a Jew who believes in it. (I’m Reform. We’re not mystical.) I hope this helps.

 

[VociMike]

I just finished reading “The Real Messiah” and a few things really jumped out.

1. It definitely seems to be aimed at Evangelical Christians, not Catholics.
2. They really don’t understand some Christian theology such as the Trinity or the Incarnation.
3. They sound very much like the Jews who opposed Jesus in the Gospels. I don’t say this in a negative sense. They hold God in such reverence that they can’t adjust their thinking to the humility of God’s plan, to be born in an animal feeding trough, gather a ragtag band about Him, and finally die a disgraceful and “fruitless” death. They say the Christian God is too small, but I’m afraid it is their concept of God that is too small.
4. As to the reasons Jesus isn’t the Messiah, I’m not scholarly enough (by a long shot!) to go over the list point by point. But again the thought comes that their Messiah is so much smaller than the Messiah they (and we) were actually given.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

I just finished reading “The Real Messiah” and a few things really jumped out.

1. It definitely seems to be aimed at Evangelical Christians, not Catholics.
2. They really don’t understand some Christian theology such as the Trinity or the Incarnation.
3. They sound very much like the Jews who opposed Jesus in the Gospels. I don’t say this in a negative sense. They hold God in such reverence that they can’t adjust their thinking to the humility of God’s plan, to be born in an animal feeding trough, gather a ragtag band about Him, and finally die a disgraceful and “fruitless” death. They say the Christian God is too small, but I’m afraid it is their concept of God that is too small.
4. As to the reasons Jesus isn’t the Messiah, I’m not scholarly enough (by a long shot!) to go over the list point by point. But again the thought comes that their Messiah is so much smaller than the Messiah they (and we) were actually given.

I’ve been reading it as well, and the book does seem to be aimed more at Evangelical Christians. Are Evangelicals the primary group that tries to convert Jews? I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment on number 2) and 3), but number 4) does ring true. The Jewish concept of the Messiah is smaller than the Christian concept. On one hand, you have a human Messiah. On the other, you have a Messiah who is G-d Himself. No one can compare to G-d.
I’m still not ready to fully commit, but I’ve been praying, talking, researching, and attending Mass and shul. (By the way, I’ve been researching the Catholic faith as well as Judaism, in an effort to understand both more. I’ve been talking to rabbis and priests too.) So far, the Catholic views seem to be “winning.” All the Jewish views that I encounter and raise seem to be believably rebutted by the Catholic views. I’m seriously beginning to wonder if I actually will become a Catholic and truly believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve been reading it as well, and the book does seem to be aimed more at Evangelical Christians. Are Evangelicals the primary group that tries to convert Jews? I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment on number 2) and 3), but number 4) does ring true. The Jewish concept of the Messiah is smaller than the Christian concept. On one hand, you have a human Messiah. On the other, you have a Messiah who is G-d Himself. No one can compare to G-d.

If I can suggest one line of meditation, ponder on the utter self-giving of the Christian (Catholic) Jesus. God will provide Himself the Lamb. Jesus has redeemed not just mankind but all of creation. He has also, in the Incarnation, united man with God. He is not God in a man-suit, but fully God and fully man. And just as He has a perfect divine Father in heaven, so His Father gave to Him a perfect human mother in a young Jewish maiden, Mary (whom Christ then gave to all of us as our perfect spiritual mother, just as He gives to us the Father – it’s all giving!). And Christ, who was perfectly obedient to His Father’s will, then left us with a Church which guards the faith He gave us without error. His plan is perfection upon perfection. In His love and mercy He took the worst evil that could be committed, the killing of God, and turned it into the greatest gift, eternal life united with God for all who seek it.

Wow! I’m ready to become Catholic all over again!

I’m still not ready to fully commit, but I’ve been praying, talking, researching, and attending Mass and shul. (By the way, I’ve been researching the Catholic faith as well as Judaism, in an effort to understand both more. I’ve been talking to rabbis and priests too.) So far, the Catholic views seem to be “winning.” All the Jewish views that I encounter and raise seem to be believably rebutted by the Catholic views. I’m seriously beginning to wonder if I actually will become a Catholic and truly believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Just pray and ask for truth wherever it leads.

I read something along the lines of this. To the Jews alone in the world God revealed His identity, His name. Then to the followers of Christ alone He revealed His relationship to them. He is Father, Abba, Daddy. We are His children, adopted into His divine family and, in heaven, into His very divine nature.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

If I can suggest one line of meditation, ponder on the utter self-giving of the Christian (Catholic) Jesus. God will provide Himself the Lamb. Jesus has redeemed not just mankind but all of creation. He has also, in the Incarnation, united man with God. He is not God in a man-suit, but fully God and fully man. And just as He has a perfect divine Father in heaven, so His Father gave to Him a perfect human mother in a young Jewish maiden, Mary (whom Christ then gave to all of us as our perfect spiritual mother, just as He gives to us the Father – it’s all giving!). And Christ, who was perfectly obedient to His Father’s will, then left us with a Church which guards the faith He gave us without error. His plan is perfection upon perfection. In His love and mercy He took the worst evil that could be committed, the killing of God, and turned it into the greatest gift, eternal life united with God for all who seek it.

Wow! I’m ready to become Catholic all over again!

Just pray and ask for truth wherever it leads.

I read something along the lines of this. To the Jews alone in the world God revealed His identity, His name. Then to the followers of Christ alone He revealed His relationship to them. He is Father, Abba, Daddy. We are His children, adopted into His divine family and, in heaven, into His very divine nature.

Thank you. That’s exactly what I want: truth. Wherever it is.

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

antiaphrodite,
I’ve looked into the matter, and reincarnation is a belief held by the mystical sects of Judaism. Many Chasidic sects believe in reincarnation, for example. Kabbalah is also a mystical sect of Judaism. Outside of the mystical sects, reincarnation is not a very popular belief, which explains why I’ve never known a Jew who believes in it. (I’m Reform. We’re not mystical.) I hope this helps.

wow. thank you for the info!

 

[Jennifer123]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you. That’s exactly what I want: truth. Wherever it is.

“I am the way, the TRUTH and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me” John 14:6

I am in awe of the way the Holy Spirit is working in your life, and how humble of heart you seem to be. Thank you for letting this forum help you along your path, and thanks to all for your wonderful and intelligent posts. This is must-read stuff!!!

God Bless!

 

[jimmytoes]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve been reading it as well, and the book does seem to be aimed more at Evangelical Christians. Are Evangelicals the primary group that tries to convert Jews?

I don’t really know of any prostelitizing (sp) group of Catholics other than foriegn missionary religious orders. Groups like the Hebrew Catholic Association are more there to answer questions if someone comes to them…

I’m still not ready to fully commit, but I’ve been praying, talking, researching, and attending Mass and shul. (By the way, I’ve been researching the Catholic faith as well as Judaism, in an effort to understand both more. I’ve been talking to rabbis and priests too.) So far, the Catholic views seem to be “winning.” All the Jewish views that I encounter and raise seem to be believably rebutted by the Catholic views. I’m seriously beginning to wonder if I actually will become a Catholic and truly believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

I’ll continue to pray for you. It’s not our job to convince you, that’s between you and the Holy Spirit. Thank you for your enerjetic use of this thread. You and I joined about the same time, and it’s been a good learning experience for me.