Question on Islam -- round 4

[planten]

au.truveo.com/Crucifixion-or-Crucifiction-1-of-7-/id/2243276052

I have the answer to whether or not Muslims believe that Jesus was beaten whipped and crowned with thorns. According to this Muslim scholar from Candida Jesus** did not suffer those punishments because pilot ordered much lighter punishments because he did not really want to kill Jesus so he ordered his soldiers to do it in the least painful way possible.** Also the Muslim scholar claims that passion of the Christ was all a lie and things did not really happened that way and we have no proof that Jesus died actually died on the cross itself. Muslim women was correct the period of time leading up to the crucifixion is not discussed in any of the Hadiths or the Koran itself. You can find this information in the first two videos. In the first video skip the middle of it and then the answer ends by the first part of the second video.
To be quite honest I only watched the first and part of the second video because after the Muslim scholar said that the passion of the Christ movie was fake I could not stomach anything else he had to say because that was over the top for me I just couldn’t take any more.

**Aydan, please remember that Pilate and his wife were on Jesus side. Pilate tried his best to avoid any punishment to Jesus. But the Jews did not allow that.

I do not mind if you think that Jesus was abused and beaten. I had agreed to that in my post because once a man is arrested then he is alone in the hands of his enemies (Jews) and anything can happen to him.

But Pilate had given specific orders tot he soldiers not to seriously harm Jesus. One proof of that I can provide to you. I hope you will consider that as a key point in all this matter.

Did not the soldiers catch some one to carry the cross for Jesus?. Thus they relieved Jesus from that difficulty. That was a major act of kindness. Can you check up that in your bible? That will prove that it was not all too bad for Jesus.**

 

[Aydan]

Yes I understand you’re telling me what Muslims believe happened to Jesus but Christians do not agree because the Bible tells a different story. Yes it is true that Pilate did not want to kill Jesus but in the Bible it tells us that people kept pressuring Pilate to let them kill Jesus and eventually Pilate gave in and said okay. That’s what he meant when he said I washed my hands of this man. Yes Pilate did not support killing Jesus but he still allowed him to be beaten whipped and crowned with thorns and he allowed Jesus to be crucified. Christians do not believe that Jesus was given light punishments by the Romans at all because our Bible tells us that Jesus had been beaten so badly that he was too weak to carry the cross and that’s why he fell so many times. The soldiers forced Simon to help Jesus carry the cross because he was too weak to do it himself not because the Roman soldiers wanted to make his punishment easier. The final reason we know that Jesus received severe punishment is because the Bible tells us that nails were actually driven into the hands and feet of Jesus and he was actually nailed to the cross which was the severest punishmentin a crucifixion.If Jesus was given a lighter punishment he would’ve been tied to the cross instead of being nailed to it.

**Aydan, please remember that Pilate and his wife were on Jesus side. Pilate tried his best to avoid any punishment to Jesus. But the Jews did not allow that.

I do not mind if you think that Jesus was abused and beaten. I had agreed to that in my post because once a man is arrested then he is alone in the hands of his enemies (Jews) and anything can happen to him.

But Pilate had given specific orders tot he soldiers not to seriously harm Jesus. One proof of that I can provide to you. I hope you will consider that as a key point in all this matter.

Did not the soldiers catch some one to carry the cross for Jesus?. Thus they relieved Jesus from that difficulty. That was a major act of kindness. Can you check up that in your bible? That will prove that it was not all too bad for Jesus.**

 

[planten]

Yes I understand you’re telling me what Muslims believe happened to Jesus but Christians do not agree because the Bible tells a different story. Yes it is true that Pilate did not want to kill Jesus but in the Bible it tells us that people kept pressuring Pilate to let them kill Jesus and eventually Pilate gave in and said okay. That’s what he meant when he said I washed my hands of this man. Yes Pilate did not support killing Jesus but he still allowed him to be beaten whipped and crowned with thorns and he allowed Jesus to be crucified. Christians do not believe that Jesus was given light punishments by the Romans at all because our Bible tells us that Jesus had been beaten so badly that he was too weak to carry the cross and that’s why he fell so many times. The soldiers forced Simon to help Jesus carry the cross because he was too weak to do it himself not because the Roman soldiers wanted to make his punishment easier. The final reason we know that Jesus received severe punishment is because the Bible tells us that nails were actually driven into the hands and feet of Jesus and he was actually nailed to the cross which was the severest punishmentin a crucifixion.If Jesus was given a lighter punishment he would’ve been tied to the cross instead of being nailed to it.

Thanks Aydan for presenting the christian version of the story. We understand it now. We know that Jesus was punished severely before crucifixion and during the crucifixion and after the crucifixion. So you are happy now? Thanks.

 

[Aydan]

yes all my questions about the Muslim view of the crucifixion have been answered. You’re welcome I hope you have a better understanding of what Christians believe now.

Thanks Aydan for presenting the christian version of the story. We understand it now. We know that Jesus was punished severely before crucifixion and during the crucifixion and after the crucifixion. So you are happy now? Thanks.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Giving out Charity from Bank Interest

Muhammad - United States

I am living in United States and I have a bank account. I don’t take interest but just I am thinking why should I leave that interest money with bank, why not I use it to give Sadqah to poor people. Is it permissible to use bank interest in Sadqah?

Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states the following:

"The general rule in Islam is that haram money should not be used for charity. Allah says in the Qur’an, "O you who believe! Give of the good things which you have (honorably) earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which is bad, in order that out of it you may give away something.” (Al-Baqarah: 267)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “Allah is good and accepts nothing but that which is good." (Reported by Muslim)

However, since Islamic banks are not available in this country and some banks give interest even on checking accounts, one should take this money and give it in charity without counting it as Zakah.

A number of Muslim jurists (from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, India and Pakistan etc…) have given this Fatwa. The late Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar Jadul-Haq `Ali Jadul-Haq mentioned that Muslim jurists in the past also used to allow giving in charity the money whose owner was not known.

As an analogy, they mentioned that someone brought the meat of a goat to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The Prophet took a bite then he set it aside and said, “I feel that this goat was taken from its owner without permission.” The Prophet then told them to distribute the meat among the prisoners of war. (See Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21471)

Imam al-Ghazali argued against those who said that it was not right to use haram money in charity. He said, "We are not giving it in charity to seek reward for ourselves, but we are giving it to get rid of it. We had a choice either to destroy this money or to use it to help someone. So we preferred helping someone instead of destroying it.

If someone says that how can we give to others what we do not like to take ourselves. We say to them that we do not take it because we do not need it, but it is permissible for the poor to take it because they are in need." (See al-Buhuth wa al-Fatawa, 1992, p. 284)."

Allah Almighty knows best.

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543388&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

 

[mary1173]

Don’t send the money to your relatives overseas so that Americans can be slaughtered with guns bought by your relatives as ‘‘pay back’’ for the Iraqi people killed in this war. Better yet, go home to Iraq- where you belong.

 

[Agabriel]

It looks like Muslims are trying to shut down faithfreedom.org

here is another email I got in my inbox today from MEF (Middle East Forum)

The Legal Project of the Middle East Forum The Federalist Society Center for National Security Law The Thomas Jefferson Center
for the Protection of
Free Expression

Present:

LIBEL LAWFARE:
Silencing Criticism of Radical Islam

Tuesday, May 19th, 2009
9:30 am - 4:00 pm

The Capital Hilton Hotel
1001 16th Street NW
Washington D.C., 20036

Islamists have launched a two-pronged effort to suppress free discourse on such subjects as Islam, radical Islam, terrorism, and terrorist funding:

By filing predatory lawsuits.
By passing “hate speech” and defamation laws.
Victims of these “lawfare” attacks have included the famous and the obscure, politicians, journalists, analysts and plain citizens.

This inhibition has great consequences, for when discussion of Islam and terrorism are limited, radical Islam is empowered and Western civilization is imperiled.

Issues to be discussed on May 19 include: A close analysis of Islamist methods; the possible need for legislation to protect free speech on these topics; a comparison of the situation in Europe and the United States; and ways to prevent the United Nations from curtailing discussion of Islam.

Schedule
9:30 a.m. Registration & Complimentary Coffee, Tea and Biscuits
10:00 a.m. Welcome & Address by Senator Arlen Specter
10:30 a.m. Panel discussion: Islamist Lawfare in the United States
12:15 p.m. Private lunch (By invitation only)
2:00 p.m. Panel discussion: Islamist Lawfare in Europe, Canada and at the United Nations
3:45 p.m. Closing Remarks

Confirmed speakers include:
Alan Dershowitz (Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, Harvard Law School)
Frank Gaffney (President, the Center for Security Policy)
David Harris (Senior Fellow, Canadian Coalition for Democracies)
Andrew McCarthy (Director, Center for Law and Counterterrorism at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies)
Alan Mendoza (Executive Director, The Henry Jackson Society)
Douglas Murray (Director, The Centre for Social Cohesion)
Daniel Pipes (Director, Middle East Forum)
David Rivkin (Attorney at law, Baker Hostetler)
James Taranto (Columnist, The Wall Street Journal)
Senator Arlen Specter

For the past few years they have been working hard via the UN to shut down this speech in the world, and with the thugs and dullards in the UN they past a resolution that only moronic countries (eg: the Europe and UK) obey. Of course, not one Muslim nation cares what the UN does against them - human rights abuses, slavery, etc all are still carried on in those countries.

 

[Agabriel]

One of the Muslims on a thread brought up the statistics against Islam as being bogus. I cannot find who or where it was stated. But, I figured this is just as good a place to put this post as anywhere.

The Statistical Analysis of Islamic Doctrines

The most unique aspect of Islamic doctrine is dualism. The Koran, Sira (Mohammed’s biography) and Hadith (his traditions) hold contradictory positions on many points of doctrine that confuse kafirs. Much ink is wasted on questioning which side of the contradiction is right and which is wrong. However, Islamic dualism allows both sides of a contradiction to be true at the same time. The only way to determine truth in any multi-state system is to use statistics.
…

Muthuswamy: Statistics is a tool of science. In doing a scientific analysis of a large pool of data, statistical analysis is by and far the most effective way of interpreting or extracting useful information. Especially in the social context, data may often represent views or outlook in varying or even in opposing directions. The statistical synthesis consists of representation of data in certain percentages that clearly bring out the overall thrust of what should otherwise be a confusing set of information.

Statistics is especially powerful in exposing the intent of an entity that may cleverly camouflage itself. For instance, a mafia don’s ten percent of the activities may be geared toward charity, but an overwhelming seventy percent may involve illegal or criminal activities geared toward enriching himself and his cronies. The percentages reveal the don as a thug who invokes charity in order to camouflage his violent lawbreaking track record.

…
Islamic scriptures… These texts form Islam’s trilogy - the Koran, the Hadiths and the Sira. …

…61 percent of the Koran talks ills of unbelievers or calls for their violent conquest and subjugation, but only 2.6 percent of it talks about the overall good of humanity.

… Islamic doctrines overwhelmingly preach dislike, hatred and conquest of unbelievers and that this material constitutes the majority of the content in the Koran. Using this statistical basis, one may also interpret that the token “goodness” toward unbelievers is present in the Koran in order to camouflage the true intent of subjugating and conquering them. When this anti-unbeliever-rich Islamic doctrine is preached through mainstream mosques, one could justifiably claim that neither the mosques nor the people who deliver the sermons there nor those who listen to them are likely to develop a moderate outlook toward unbelievers.

During the past sixty years from every Muslim majority region of South Asia - without exception - upon gaining power Muslims have set about marginalizing and worse - expelled most non-Muslims to the neighboring non-Muslim majority areas. This occurred despite the people sharing everything - including ethnicity, culture, language, but excluding religion. Most of these expulsions occurred before 1975, when money from Saudi Arabia was starting to flow into the region to immerse the population with even more Islam. This region of Asia is home to about to a third of the worldwide population of 1.3 billion Muslims. This is significant.

Any non-Muslim majority region of the world with a higher local Muslim population growth rate has to worry about its very existence in the coming years.

There is also a strong correlation between the increased funding for the propagation of Islam and the worsening of Muslims’ uneasy relations with unbelievers - in the form of insurgencies, terrorism and riots that extend across the world. This is seen in India, the Philippines, Thailand, America, Russia, Europe, to name a few.

…Without statistics we didn’t have a case, only opinions. Policymakers and the pundits could ignore opinions, but would be hard-pressed to discount scientific assertions based upon statistics.

 

[Agabriel]

I should have written the EU instead of Europe.

Anyway, that kind of nitpicking doesn’t help at all. What the problem is are the attempts at trying to stifle speech concerning Islam. It is systematic and free nations are just acquiescing instead of looking at these attempts and curtailing such attempts.

What this reminds me is the same sort of behavior that allowed Hitler to gain ground in Germany. And now, it has multiplied.

I don’t really wish to argue with you about this phenomenon. If you cannot see what is happening then that is fine with me. History is lost on a lot of people and that is why it gets repeated so often.

 

[Agabriel]

An example of what is happening in the UK.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Say not even “Fie” to Parents

Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr

.JPG

…PARENTS IN QURAN

… Allah says: “Your Lord had decreed, that you worship none save Him, and (that you show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age with you, say not “Fie” unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word. And lower unto them the wing of submission through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both, as they did care for me when I was young.” [Quran 17:23-24]

… Allah demands that children recognize their parents:

“We have enjoined on humankind kindness to parents.” [Quran 29:8 and 46:15]

1. The demand for recognizing parents is made more emphaticly when Allah says in the Quran:

“And (remember) when We made a covenant with the children of Israel, (saying): worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents…” [Quran 2:83]

1. In Surah Al-Nisaa’ (The Women) Allah emphasizes again that children should be kind to their parents.

"And serve Allah. Ascribe nothing as partner unto Him. (Show) Kindness unto parents… " [Quran 4:36]

1. The same directive is repeated again In Surah Al An’Am (The Cattle), where Allah says:

“Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord has made a sacred duty for you; that you ascribe nothing as partner unto Him and that you do good to parents…” [Quran 6:151]

MOTHERS

… a man came to the Prophet and asked him, ‘Who is to be close to my friendship?’ The Prophet answered:

Your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father, then the one closest to your kinship, and the one after.

Islam has endorsed respect for parents by their children even if the parents are non-Muslims. Only if parents coerce their children against Islam, then the children have the right not to obey their parents, but they are still to be good to them. In this regard, Allah says in Surah Luqman:

“And We have enjoined upon man concerning his parents–his mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years–Give thanks unto Me and unto your parents. Unto Me is the journeying. But if they strive with you to make you ascribe unto Me as partner that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not. Consort with them in the world kindly, and follow the part of him who repents unto Me. Then unto Me will you return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.–” [Quran 31:14-15]

islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0305-1965

 

[Agabriel]

Say not even “Fie” to Parents

Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr

…PARENTS IN QURAN

… Allah says: “Your Lord had decreed, that you worship none save Him, and (that you show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age with you, say not “Fie” unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word. And lower unto them the wing of submission through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both, as they did care for me when I was young.” [Quran 17:23-24]

… Allah demands that children recognize their parents:

“We have enjoined on humankind kindness to parents.” [Quran 29:8 and 46:15]

1. The demand for recognizing parents is made more emphaticly when Allah says in the Quran:

“And (remember) when We made a covenant with the children of Israel, (saying): worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents…” [Quran 2:83]

1. In Surah Al-Nisaa’ (The Women) Allah emphasizes again that children should be kind to their parents.

"And serve Allah. Ascribe nothing as partner unto Him. (Show) Kindness unto parents… " [Quran 4:36]

1. The same directive is repeated again In Surah Al An’Am (The Cattle), where Allah says:

“Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord has made a sacred duty for you; that you ascribe nothing as partner unto Him and that you do good to parents…” [Quran 6:151]

MOTHERS

… a man came to the Prophet and asked him, ‘Who is to be close to my friendship?’ The Prophet answered:

Your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father, then the one closest to your kinship, and the one after.

Islam has endorsed respect for parents by their children even if the parents are non-Muslims. Only if parents coerce their children against Islam, then the children have the right not to obey their parents, but they are still to be good to them. In this regard, Allah says in Surah Luqman:

“And We have enjoined upon man concerning his parents–his mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years–Give thanks unto Me and unto your parents. Unto Me is the journeying. But if they strive with you to make you ascribe unto Me as partner that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not. Consort with them in the world kindly, and follow the part of him who repents unto Me. Then unto Me will you return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.–” [Quran 31:14-15]

Then why is it so common, throughout the history of Islam’s Jihad for 1400 years, that they have aimed for mothers? who had children? Even now Muslims aim at them in Israel, along with children, in buses, pizza parlors, schools, etc.

(answer: they were treated as loot, slaves)

History of jihad

in the above link, the history of jihad in India tells us that

The reason why the Hindus survived thirteen centuries of savage Muslim tyranny was that they learnt that the art of survival in face of a Muslim attack was giving back almost as much as they got from the beastlike Muslims.

We use the qualifier “almost” as the Hindus slaughtered the Muslims on the battlefield, but did not go to the extent of slaughtering Muslim civilians and giving them the choice of Hinduism or death, Hindus did not molest Muslim women en masse, neither did they destroy, en masse, all Mosques, nor did they build Hindus temples over them (the Babri Masjid-Ramjanabhomi struggle being a one off and very belated case). Never did the Hindus, after a victory, impose a penal tax like the jaziya on all Muslims and reduce the Muslims to such a state of servitude,

pssst, your scales will be unbalanced today - you didn’t use PBUH anywhere.

 

[richrdCohn]

" Christians do not believe that Jesus was given light punishments by the Romans at all because our Bible tells us that Jesus had been beaten so badly that he was too weak to carry the cross and that’s why he fell so many times. "

But why and how the God of Christians was beaten so badly by a bunch of Jews/ and or due to Pagan Romans order?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

yes, its amazing how many ‘small’ other mistakes muhammed had did.

I would usually say as a non-theist who knows theology fairly well (and who has seen the slippery slope of these religious debates) it’s usually not a great idea to try and discredit a religion based on the faults of its founders (or the men who have helped shape it). Muhammad, however, gives me pause (I have to admit) because some of the things he did seem pretty over the top.

However, was he any worse than David or many other Old Testament prophets? Paul persecuted the Christian church (and executed Christians) before his conversion. I do admit though betrothing Alisha at six years old does shock my conscience in ways the sins of David or Paul do not. However, on balance I still think attacking a religion through ad hom attacks on its founders is a poor approach to apologetics.

The lesson in all my gibberish is … religion can get choppy. I say we have ultimate fighting competitions to figure out whose right. Whoever wins must have god on their side right (plus it will be great entertainment & almost no one will die)! Even better, let atheists in the ring too

 

[humble_in_doubt]

But why and how the God of Christians was beaten so badly by a bunch of Jews/ and or due to Pagan Romans order?

If Jesus was in my ultimate fighting class or my Army unit it would have never happened. I bet one M249 could take out a Roman century sized element (and certainly make a bunch of pharisees go crying home to momma).

 

[humble_in_doubt]

But why and how the God of Christians was beaten so badly by a bunch of Jews/ and or due to Pagan Romans order?

I’m not sure what your religion is … but I hate to point out the obvious? Where was god when his chosen people were being slaughtered in gas chambers? Where was Allah when a non-Muslim nation (the US) conquered Iraq in six weeks (the heartland of the middle east, ancient Mesopotamia, Sumer, Babylon, with holy cities like Najaf)?

Of course in the Jesus mythology he came to earth specifically to die the death he died.

So I really don’t see your logic? What happens in these debates over religion is an angry post or response begets another more angry post or response, and the anger level builds exponentially until everyone is acting like school children.

 

[Aydan]

But why and how the God of Christians was beaten so badly by a bunch of Jews/ and or due to Pagan Romans order?

There was no pagan ruler involved here I don’t know where you got that information from all of the people involved in the crucifixion of Jesus were Jewish. As for why it happened Jesus said it himself as he was being nailed to the cross, father forgive them they know not what they do."

 

[Agabriel]

I would usually say as a non-theist who knows theology fairly well (and who has seen the slippery slope of these religious debates) it’s usually not a great idea to try and discredit a religion based on the faults of its founders (or the men who have helped shape it). Muhammad, however, gives me pause (I have to admit) because some of the things he did seem pretty over the top.

However, was he any worse than David or many other Old Testament prophets? Paul persecuted the Christian church (and executed Christians) before his conversion. I do admit though betrothing Alisha at six years old does shock my conscience in ways the sins of David or Paul do not. However, on balance I still think attacking a religion through ad hom attacks on its founders is a poor approach to apologetics.

The lesson in all my gibberish is … religion can get choppy. I say we have ultimate fighting competitions to figure out whose right. Whoever wins must have god on their side right (plus it will be great entertainment & almost no one will die)! Even better, let atheists in the ring too

The problem is that the leader told his followers to do what he did to attain their heaven. He created an ‘us vs them’ mentality (believers vs unbelievers). He dehumanized the unbelievers which is a prerequisite to not caring what happens to them. The only option for unbelievers in order to have a peace is death, conversion, or subjugation.

There is no concept of forgiveness, equality, freedoms for unbelievers (or even their own women), human being, etc; and they still have slavery in Islam to this day.

No peace treaty, cease fire, or whatever you want to call a stop in hostilities can last no longer than 10 years and they are told to break that treaty as soon as they are rearmed/regrouped. It is called hudna. It can be used as a strategy against the unbelievers in order to lull them into thinking all is well.

Deception is ok in Islam. It is another strategy. This is called taqiyya and kithman (and they will say that they do not practice it, but that is actually more deception. The Shia are noted for doing it because in order to live as a minority in a majority of Sunna lands they had to use taqiyya/kithman).

I guess what you need to do is read the Quran and then come back and tell us if you have the same opinion.

And yes, reading the Quran is not easy. There is no order, it is like one thought here and another thought there, and basically it took me a long time to read it - it gave me a headache sometimes. Overall, I didn’t remember it either - so I downloaded all the accepted translations of it to my PC to refer to them whenever need be.

 

[Aydan]

I’m not sure what your religion is … but I hate to point out the obvious? Where was god when his chosen people were being slaughtered in gas chambers? Where was Allah when a non-Muslim nation (the US) conquered Iraq in six weeks (the heartland of the middle east, ancient Mesopotamia, Sumer, Babylon, with holy cities like Najaf)?

Of course in the Jesus mythology he came to earth specifically to die the death he died.

So I really don’t see your logic? What happens in these debates over religion is an angry post or response begets another more angry post or response, and the anger level builds exponentially until everyone is acting like school children.

Just because God doesn’t stop an evil act does not mean he is not there and cannot stop it. It does mean that he has given us free will and chooses not to intervene.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

The Never Seen Video of Inside of holy KAABA !

Did not watch videos …supposed to be good & interesting

The Description of the Interior of the Holy Ka’bah

islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/the-description-of-the-interior-of-the-holy-kabah/

The Form of the Marble of the Floor and Walls of the Holy Ka’bah

islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/the-form-of-the-marble-of-the-floor-and-walls-of-the-holy-kabah/