You are right, Aydan. I appreciate all of your knowledge and insights. I guess at the very least my questions may make some of the Muslims here think and investigate. I suppose if they haven’t had any real exposure to Christianity, they wouldn’t know what to think about various Bible verses. It would be the same for some Christians’ (including mine) views of verses from the Quran.
i got your point
so , did jesus meant by church the basic teaching or beliefs about him or did he meant construction for worship ?
I think He meant Church as in the beliefs and teachings. The continuation of His ministry. He did tell us at the Last Supper: “Do this in remembrance of me.”
all what i want to say about paul that he created his own Religion. It wasn’t the message of Jesus he came to preach but his own.
How do you figure that? And again, where were the other disciples, St. Peter et al.?
Paul was the first one who made Jesus (pbuh) a Son of God
Acts 9:
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
No. St. Peter acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God - just in the verse I quoted above!
God also acknowledged Jesus as His Beloved Son at both His baptism and His transfiguration.
Paul was the innovator of resurrection in Acts 17:18 : “…And some said, What will this babbler (i.e. Paul) say? He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection.”
Paul also admit that the resurrection was his innovation in II Timothy 2:8 : “Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my Gospel.”
Again, this is incorrect. Read my response to Hadi a few posts back regarding the Epistles of Peter in the Bible.
One should also note that Saint Paul as he is known was not among the Disciples of Jesus
Ac 9:
26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Probably because he used to persecute Christians.When they realized he really had been converted, they acknowledged him.
**elwill, I am amazed at your quotes from the bibleNT about Paul. Thank you very much. We Muslims know that it was paul who ruined the teachings of Jesus. But the Catholics cannot see that. Anyhow, thanks for providing the actual proofs.
Like the 99-headed Allah?
Nadir Ahmed does that too. I find it amazing that most Christians are ready to defend their faith without attacking anybody, whereas some Muslims, when asked to defend their faith in apologetics or debate, have to attack Christianity. Again, the abuse of the non-sequitor and tu quoque fallacies is simply amazing.
cool , let us then back to the verses
Paul was a Hellenized Pharisee converted to Christianity and rejected the Judaism which Jesus and the Jerusalem Church belonged to. So Paul renounced his Judaism, the law, and reincarnation and began teaching the Gentiles the alien doctrine of bodily resurrection
what did jews meant by saying son of God , read the OT
you can ignore what we say about christianity
where did i defend my faith by attacking christianity ?
cool , let us then back to the verses
Matthew 16:13-19
Now Jesus Having come into the district of Caesarea Philippi, began to ask his disciples, saying, “Who do men say the Son of Man is?” But they said, “Some say, John the Baptist; and others Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”** Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **Then Jesus answered and said, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to thee, but my Father in heaven. And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
can we agree that upon this rock (that jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God) jesus will build his relegion ?
No, we cannot agree that that is what this passage means. Jesus is establishing His Church and making Peter the head of it - hence he was the first Pope. “You are Peter (which means “rock”) and upon this rock (Peter) I will build my Church.”
Paul was a Hellenized Pharisee converted to Christianity and rejected the Judaism which Jesus and the Jerusalem Church belonged to. So Paul renounced his Judaism, the law, and reincarnation and began teaching the Gentiles the alien doctrine of bodily resurrection
This is false as I just showed in previous posts passages of Peter’s epistles where he acknowledged the resurrection and the Jesus is God. This was not a doctrine of Paul - it actually happened!!
Pauline Christianity became Christianity minus the Judaism of Jesus and plus the Hellenization that ultimately led to the great historical schism within Christianity between Pauline Christianity established in Rome and Jerusalem Christianity established by Jesus and the twelve.
Peter and James did not want Paul to separate Judaism from the teachings of Jesus. They did not believe that Jesus rejected Judaism and the law of Moses as Paul did.
What?Sorry, but you’ve totally lost me on this one. What in the world are you talking about?
My friend I will ask you a simple question, under whose authority did Paul become an apostle, did jesus tell his disciples that there will be one that will come and he will take over after me.I am sure the question was asked.Apart from the Vision that he claimed to have had did Jesus himself appoint him as the one to take over after him?
I can tell you clearly the answer is NO.So how is it that he is the one that that took over.
paul is the one who conceived all of your doctrines, and set up its churches throughout the world of his time. Christians don’t deny this, either . No figure in Christian history stands so tall or has had such a tremendous influence as has Saul of Tarsus
Again, this is completely false. Again, I tell you that St. Peter was the first Pope and in charge of the Church. In fact, I think St. Peter has more significance because he holds the keys. Have you ever heard any jokes or references to people dying and meeting St. Peter at the ‘pearly gates’?
There is one big problem with this picture, however: the teachings of Paul, the true founder of Christianity, cannot be found anywhere in the teachings of Jesus or in those of prophets before him.
False.
what did jews meant by saying son of God , read the OT
if you want me to hold such idea that they believed that jesus his divine son , so many of jews and prophets were his sons in OT either
Suggested reading for you on this topic.
I don’t think that was directed at you, elwill. I think it was directed mainly at planten’s absurdly off topic posts which he has a habit of doing.you can ignore what we say about christianity
i just responding to questions of jay , she discuss with me my view for christianity , if you want you can ask her to continue her questions in private
peace
No, that was a fair question and your response would have been fair if it answered the question. If 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of Muslims defend their faith by attacking Christianity, then I think it is fair to say that Muslims in general defend their faith by attacking Christianity. You took the statement personally. You might be an exception to the statement, as there always is an exception to any rule. The only rule I can think of to which there is no exception is the rule that there is an exception to every rule.
elwill I completely agree with Jay on this. When you answer questions like these I find it very beneficial because it helps me to understand where my Turkish friends are coming from when they ask me questions about Christianity and it gives me new insights on Islam as well. I don’t agree with your theology but I respect your answers and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to discuss your faith with us. I hope you’ll continue to answer questions and remain an active part of our community.I don’t think that was directed at you, elwill. I think it was directed mainly at planten’s absurdly off topic posts which he has a habit of doing.
Oh relax. I had planten in mind when I wrote that post and was speaking about the entire forum’s atmosphere in general.
thank you for your interest aydan
