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planten
Guest
Yes, Zaki, that was a very good reply to napoli. I wish I could also do the same. Thanks for guidance.thanks-that comment really enlightened us
wasalam
- Status
P
planten
Guest
Thanks elwill for giving true information about Saul of Tarsus. I admire your words. How wonderfully you have described a man who tried to usurp the teachings of Jesus. Saul was beheaded too. He left judaism. That was another bad thing. But your words should be written in golden letters. Thanks for your guiding words.
E
elwill
Guest
although your understanding can to be right , but i think mine either can to be right .
but where is the gospel of peter anyway , and dose that means that you will hold writings of peter to be superior the other gospeles if they differed ?
give me your post # to read it
iâm talking about the conflicts happened in Gal 2
anyway i need your insight about this verse in Gal.2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the **gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision **was unto Peter; 8
iâm confused now , i really talking about paul not peter , i have no problems with peter , i think
i will give you just one important example
Paul said that âsalvation comes through faith and graceâ which is exactly what the missionaries are saying today. Let us read the words of Jesus.
And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. (Mark 9:29)
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. (Matthew 17:21)
âThe Christianity which the nations claim to follow is the religion of Paul, who is admittedly the chief and almost the only theologian that the Church recognizes. Because of his betrayal of the Masterâs teachings, the vision of true Christianity has been so dimmed that men have been able to defend war and a host of other evils, such as flesh eating and slavery, on the authority of the Bible.â (Christ or Paul? Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore)
âLet the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught⌠For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message⌠That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world⌠The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness.â (ibid, Rev. V.A. Holmes Gore)
âTrue Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock, the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology.â (Ernest Renan, Saint Paul)
"There is not one word of Pauline Christianity in the characteristic utterances of Jesus⌠There has really never been a more monstrous imposition perpetrated than the imposition of Paulâs soul upon the soul of Jesus⌠It is now easy to understand how the Christianity of Jesus⌠was suppressed by the police and the Church, while Paulinism overran the whole western civilized world, which was at that time the Roman Empire, and was adopted by it as its official faith. (Androcles and the Lion, George Bernard Shaw)
âPaul⌠did not desire to know Christ⌠Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded⌠What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?.. The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority⌠The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it.â (The Quest for the Historical Jesus, Albert Schweitzer)
i just quote those for you to show you that itâs not the problem which muslims raised , i think that itâs the openion of many scholars for christianity either
i didnât find any convincing answers , itâs all openion without any proofs
the original lost gospeles supposed to be written by jews themselfs and may be they used words as son of God attributed to jesus with reference to thier culture and in reference to culture of thier religion which is the OT .
for me using the son of God phrase in both the old and new testament are the same , are you have proofs that they isnât the same
E
elwill
Guest
thank you planten
by the way itâs not literally my own words
to be honest , my english not good as that
J
Jay53
Guest
although your understanding can to be right , but i think mine either can to be right .
But, considering that St. Peter IS the first Pope of the Catholic Church, Iâm obviously more inclined to think that Iâm right.
but where is the gospel of peter anyway , and dose that means that you will hold writings of peter to be superior the other gospeles if they differed ?
Itâs the Epistles of St. Peter. And there are no differences. You can probably read them at biblegateway.com. Theyâre not real lengthy.
give me your post # to read it
Post #956
iâm talking about the conflicts happened in Gal 2
anyway i need your insight about this verse in Gal.2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the **gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision **was unto Peter; 8
Iâll have to let someone else respond right now. I donât have a quick answer - I need to reread your previous post to understand what youâre talking about here and Iâm leaving for work.
iâm confused now , i really talking about paul not peter , i have no problems with peter , i think
Thatâs what I donât understand. Muslims here seem to villify St. Paul, but not the other disciples. St. Peter was the first Pope, so he was obviously in agreement with St. Paul (read his epistles and youâll see he also calls him âbrotherâ.). Where do Muslims believe all the other disciples of Jesus went? St. Peter, according to Muslims, betrayed Jesus by joining Paul in his ânewâ religion, St. John wrote the Gospel that confirms what St. Peter and St. Paul were teaching.
And Peter, James and John were Jesusâ closest disciples who even witnessed His Transfiguration. Either Muslims believe Jesus did a terrible job of picking disciples or they just might be mistaken in some of their beliefs.
BTW, when did this villification of St. Paul start? Is this something found with Muhammad, or did this start with Muslim apologetics at a later date?
âsnipâ
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planten
Guest
**elwill, Thank you. Your English may not be good but your presentation is very good. Your post #995 with all the references **is also very good and an eye opener for the christian friends. We are talking the same things that other world scholars are saying, that paul overtook the teachings of Jesus.thank you planten
by the way itâs not literally my own words
to be honest , my english not good as that
The name of Paul is no where in the four gospels, i.e. the active lifetime of Jesus. Jesus did not talk about him and Paul did not talk or walk with Jesus even one day. The most part of the bible is made up of Pauls letters. What Paul has got to do with Mother Mary or Jesus? Was Paul a comrade of Jesus? We hope not.
We let the christian friends defend Paul as much as they like. For us Muslims Paul is nothing. We are with Jesus, not with Paulâs made out Jesus.
S
sedonaman
Guest
Why canât you stick to the subject, which is Islam, not Paul and not Jesus? Is it because you cannot defend Islam?
E
elwill
Guest
feel wellcome if you have questions not answered yet about islam
E
elwill
Guest
okey , but iâm talking about paul not peter , or may be there is something i missing ?
let us see what the scholars said about Epistles of St. Peter.
First epistleThe authenticity, universally admitted by the primitive Church, has been denied within the past century by Protestant or Rationalist critics (Baur and the TĂźbingen School, Von Soden, Harnack, JĂźlicher, Hilgenfeld, and others), but it cannot seriously be questioned. It is well established by extrinsic and instrinsic arguments.
Second epistle
In the present state of the controversy over the authenticity it may be affirmed that it is solidly probable, though it is difficult to prove with certainty.
newadvent.org/cathen/11752a.htm
may be you inclined that St. Peter IS the first Pope of the Catholic Church , i have no problem with that
but iâm also inclined to not taking such gospel full of doubts about itâs Authenticity as an evidence for the real mssage of jesus (pbuh)
iâm inclined to take the words of jeusus (pbuh) to be superior than any others
i have to be fair with the disciples of jesus , personally i believe that they were in truth
but if ask what i think , so i think that we donât have the original writings for them , we just discuss thw writings which attributed to them . so that we need to make deep study for these writings and verifying them , we canât take it as to be absolute truth
i think that this is something founded by christians scholars in the first place , not by muslims at all
S
sedonaman
Guest
OK. Why does Mohammed and Islam need Judeo-Christian scriptures to validate themselves. Why canât they stand on their own?
J
jakasaki
Guest
Youâve must have asked this question a bazillion times on here and you have yet to receive an answerâŚ
S
sedonaman
Guest
Furthermore, since Mohammed and Islam do use Judeo-Christian scriptures, the next question then becomes, âWhy does anyone need Mohammed if those scriptures are valid, as they must be in order to validate Mohammedâs prophethood?â Then, how can Mohammed subsequently reject the scriptures he relies on for validation?
Why does Allah send Jesus to start a false religion that misleads billions of people?
Why does Allah send prophets to preach a different message from Islam, and get people to believe a lie?
Why did Allah deceived people into believing that Jesus had died on the cross? Even if we allow that Allahâs only goal was to deceive the people who wanted to kill Jesus, it is clear that his disciples also fell for Allahâs deception. So who is responsible for the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross? If Islam is correct, Allah started this idea when he decided to trick Jesusâ enemies into thinking that they had killed Jesus. This leads to even more problems. If the deception of the disciples was UNintentional, then we must conclude that Allah didnât realize that he was about to start the largest false religion in the world. If it was INtentional, then why is Allah is in the business of starting false religions?
Muhammadâs position also means that Jesus was the greatest failure in the history of all the prophets. He spent 33 years preaching [again, he began preaching Islamic theology at birth], yet shortly after his death [or being snatched up to heaven by Allah at the last minute to save him from crucifixion], the children of Israel were divided into two broad camps. Those who believed his message became Christians, all of whom were guilty of the worst sin imaginable [shirk], while those who rejected his message were guilty of rejecting one of Allahâs greatest messengers. Thus, whether people believed in Jesus or rejected him, everyone would ultimately be condemned and cast into the hellfire. Why then do Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the greatest prophets ever? If we follow the teachings of Islam through to their logical conclusion, we see that Allah either intentionally or unintentionally started Christianity. But the Qurâan doesnât stop there.
Instead of correcting the mess he made, Allah took Christianity to the next level. The Qurâan states that Allah helped spread Christianity. Once Allah had caused belief in Jesusâ death and resurrection, he then worked diligently to aid the Christians in spreading their false message.
Allah even led Jesusâ followers astray by tricking so many people into believing that Jesus died. This could have been avoided if Allah hadnât been so intent on deceiving people. But this leads to more questions: Why would Allah want people to believe that Jesus was dead when he really wasnât? Muslims canât argue that Allah did it to protect Jesus from the Jews or Romans, since Allah was taking Jesus away safely anyway. So, why would Allah want to give Jesusâ enemies the satisfaction of seeing Jesus killed? Why not raise Jesus up without deceiving everyone about it? There seems to be no reason at all for Allah to deceive these people, especially since such a deception would soon lead to the formation of Christianity ⌠and the resulting deception of billions of people.
And donât give me the God/Allah-confuses-those-whom-he-wills-to-be-confused [or something like that] excuse.
Finally, why arenât these enough to reject forthwith the claims of Islam and Mohammed?
J
jakasaki
Guest
You covered it all SedonaMan - every bit of it - so now we wait for answers to each question your postedâŚ
Hopefully, youâll get your answers before the Modâs lock the thread because itâs reached over 1000 entriesâŚ
But oh well, if it gets locked, this post should be moved to âIslam round 5â thread.
C
Christos
Guest
Furthermore, since Mohammed and Islam do use Judeo-Christian scriptures, the next question then becomes, âWhy does anyone need Mohammed if those scriptures are valid, as they must be in order to validate Mohammedâs prophethood?â Then, how can Mohammed subsequently reject the scriptures he relies on for validation?
The reason we need Muhammad was the exactly the same reason we believe that the Christians needed Jesus. The Jews were in a habbit of going astray from the path of God, and thus God continuously sent them a prophet. Finally, God sent Jesus, to rectify the mistakes of the Jews, not die for their sins or the sins of the world, but to rectify their mistakes. Similarly, Muhammad came to a barabarric reagion of the world, where mostly all of the people had become ignorrent. They changed their paths from the teachings of the Prophets before Muhammad. Muhammad had to come to rectify their mistakes and the mistakes of the now Christians, and also the Jews, because they were still in error. Yes, we believe the Holy Bible was inspired by God, however, it was changed and distorted to suit the needs of a few. Thus, even though Muhammad said that the Scriptures were sent by God, He also says that they are no longer in their original form. He does not rely simply on the Scriptures for validation. His works and teachings which he did in the name of God, and his teachings about Jesus, and Moses, and the many other Prophets, were more pure than those teachings of the same Prophets in the Bible. The Bible had transformed these great Prophets into Adulterous people, who commit incest or witness their own children commit incest, yet it prescribes no punishment towards these people(GENESIS 19:33-35, GENESIS 35:22, GENESIS 38:15-I8). What is the moral of these stories? What will, you or your childres (if you have any at the moment) gain if you teach them this story. Islam does not make any differences amongts the Prophets (La nufariku bayna ahadim minhum, We make no distinction between any of them,)
Why does Allah send Jesus to start a false religion that misleads billions of people?
Allah did not send Jesus to start a false religion. Allah sent Jesus for the Jews and for those who would beleive in him. The majority of the Jews did not believe in him, just like they did not believe in the Prophets before him. Jesus says himself, he is following the religion of his forfathers, of Abaraham, and Moses. So therfore how is this a NEW religion, and how is it a false religion. The religion of his forfathers, did not include the trinity, you can ask any Jew about that, and neither did the religion after him, Islam, include the trinity.
Why does Allah send prophets to preach a different message from Islam, and get people to believe a lie?
The core beliefs of Christianity, closely resemble those of Islam. Islam is not a different message from Christianity, but it goes into more detail. We can ask the same question about Christianity. Why does Allah send Jesus to preach a different message than from Judiasm, and get people to believe in a lie. Itâs because it is not a different message, it is the same message in nature, its just the minute details that differ. Lets say for example divorce. In the Torah, divorce was allowed. Before, what used to occur was a man would divorce his wife, and then recant his proclamation of divorce saying it never occured. Thus Moses said a man mustgive his wife a written notification that he has divorced her. The Jews, began to take advantage of this also, and therfore when Jesus came he said that divorce was prohibited unless it involved adultery. Islam, tells us that Allah looks down upon as a really horrible act, but sometimes necessarry. Yet, he says when you want to divorce it should be a last option and when you ask for a divorce he prescribes measures one should take to still part respectfully and give a possible chance of reconcilliation. (Read Surah At-Talaq[The Divorce])
Why did Allah deceived people into believing that Jesus had died on the cross? Even if we allow that Allahâs only goal was to deceive the people who wanted to kill Jesus, it is clear that his disciples also fell for Allahâs deception. So who is responsible for the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross? If Islam is correct, Allah started this idea when he decided to trick Jesusâ enemies into thinking that they had killed Jesus. This leads to even more problems. If the deception of the disciples was UNintentional, then we must conclude that Allah didnât realize that he was about to start the largest false religion in the world. If it was INtentional, then why is Allah is in the business of starting false religions?
Allah decieved the people because Jesus asked for God not to let him die there at that time. Therfore God, accepted his prayer and placed someone else in Jesusâ place to be crucified. His deciples had fled, remember, so they were not there at the time of the crucifixtion. Then when Jesus came to them, he told them that he was not crucified and was saved by the Almight-God, and he will now be raised to heaved. He will come back sometime in the future to the world. (Muslim Opinion). Tell me this, the recount in each of the four Gospels was different. You may argue that just oral tradition reaching that person may have been different than to the other. Then, if these Gospels were truly Inspired by God, then it would not matter about the oral tradition reaching these individuals because God would still inspire them to write as it had happened, and not differently. However, if the Bible had been changed, or had interpolations, and had these many changes done towards it, then it is understandable that yes, these Gospels were inspired by God, but other people had changed it.
The reason we need Muhammad was the exactly the same reason we believe that the Christians needed Jesus. The Jews were in a habbit of going astray from the path of God, and thus God continuously sent them a prophet. Finally, God sent Jesus, to rectify the mistakes of the Jews, not die for their sins or the sins of the world, but to rectify their mistakes. Similarly, Muhammad came to a barabarric reagion of the world, where mostly all of the people had become ignorrent. They changed their paths from the teachings of the Prophets before Muhammad. Muhammad had to come to rectify their mistakes and the mistakes of the now Christians, and also the Jews, because they were still in error. Yes, we believe the Holy Bible was inspired by God, however, it was changed and distorted to suit the needs of a few. Thus, even though Muhammad said that the Scriptures were sent by God, He also says that they are no longer in their original form. He does not rely simply on the Scriptures for validation. His works and teachings which he did in the name of God, and his teachings about Jesus, and Moses, and the many other Prophets, were more pure than those teachings of the same Prophets in the Bible. The Bible had transformed these great Prophets into Adulterous people, who commit incest or witness their own children commit incest, yet it prescribes no punishment towards these people(GENESIS 19:33-35, GENESIS 35:22, GENESIS 38:15-I8). What is the moral of these stories? What will, you or your childres (if you have any at the moment) gain if you teach them this story. Islam does not make any differences amongts the Prophets (La nufariku bayna ahadim minhum, We make no distinction between any of them,)
Why does Allah send Jesus to start a false religion that misleads billions of people?
Allah did not send Jesus to start a false religion. Allah sent Jesus for the Jews and for those who would beleive in him. The majority of the Jews did not believe in him, just like they did not believe in the Prophets before him. Jesus says himself, he is following the religion of his forfathers, of Abaraham, and Moses. So therfore how is this a NEW religion, and how is it a false religion. The religion of his forfathers, did not include the trinity, you can ask any Jew about that, and neither did the religion after him, Islam, include the trinity.
Why does Allah send prophets to preach a different message from Islam, and get people to believe a lie?
The core beliefs of Christianity, closely resemble those of Islam. Islam is not a different message from Christianity, but it goes into more detail. We can ask the same question about Christianity. Why does Allah send Jesus to preach a different message than from Judiasm, and get people to believe in a lie. Itâs because it is not a different message, it is the same message in nature, its just the minute details that differ. Lets say for example divorce. In the Torah, divorce was allowed. Before, what used to occur was a man would divorce his wife, and then recant his proclamation of divorce saying it never occured. Thus Moses said a man mustgive his wife a written notification that he has divorced her. The Jews, began to take advantage of this also, and therfore when Jesus came he said that divorce was prohibited unless it involved adultery. Islam, tells us that Allah looks down upon as a really horrible act, but sometimes necessarry. Yet, he says when you want to divorce it should be a last option and when you ask for a divorce he prescribes measures one should take to still part respectfully and give a possible chance of reconcilliation. (Read Surah At-Talaq[The Divorce])
Why did Allah deceived people into believing that Jesus had died on the cross? Even if we allow that Allahâs only goal was to deceive the people who wanted to kill Jesus, it is clear that his disciples also fell for Allahâs deception. So who is responsible for the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross? If Islam is correct, Allah started this idea when he decided to trick Jesusâ enemies into thinking that they had killed Jesus. This leads to even more problems. If the deception of the disciples was UNintentional, then we must conclude that Allah didnât realize that he was about to start the largest false religion in the world. If it was INtentional, then why is Allah is in the business of starting false religions?
Allah decieved the people because Jesus asked for God not to let him die there at that time. Therfore God, accepted his prayer and placed someone else in Jesusâ place to be crucified. His deciples had fled, remember, so they were not there at the time of the crucifixtion. Then when Jesus came to them, he told them that he was not crucified and was saved by the Almight-God, and he will now be raised to heaved. He will come back sometime in the future to the world. (Muslim Opinion). Tell me this, the recount in each of the four Gospels was different. You may argue that just oral tradition reaching that person may have been different than to the other. Then, if these Gospels were truly Inspired by God, then it would not matter about the oral tradition reaching these individuals because God would still inspire them to write as it had happened, and not differently. However, if the Bible had been changed, or had interpolations, and had these many changes done towards it, then it is understandable that yes, these Gospels were inspired by God, but other people had changed it.
C
Christos
Guest
Muhammadâs position also means that Jesus was the greatest failure in the history of all the prophets. He spent 33 years preaching [again, he began preaching Islamic theology at birth], yet shortly after his death [or being snatched up to heaven by Allah at the last minute to save him from crucifixion], the children of Israel were divided into two broad camps. Those who believed his message became Christians, all of whom were guilty of the worst sin imaginable [shirk], while those who rejected his message were guilty of rejecting one of Allahâs greatest messengers. Thus, whether people believed in Jesus or rejected him, everyone would ultimately be condemned and cast into the hellfire. Why then do Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the greatest prophets ever? If we follow the teachings of Islam through to their logical conclusion, we see that Allah either intentionally or unintentionally started Christianity. But the Qurâan doesnât stop there.
You are placing these absurdities as the teachings of Muhammad stating he was the greatest failure. The Prophet is never to be blamed for the failure of his nations people. If such criteria is used, then Moses would be the greatest failure in the history of all people. However, like i mentioned before Islam does not make any distinctions between these Prophets, and gives them much more respect than the Bible has given anyone.
Instead of correcting the mess he made, Allah took Christianity to the next level. The Qurâan states that Allah helped spread Christianity. Once Allah had caused belief in Jesusâ death and resurrection, he then worked diligently to aid the Christians in spreading their false message.
Yes, I belleve Allah helped spread Christianity. After Jesusâ supposed crucifixion many people became aware that the real Jesus had not been crucified and had become followers of him. It was in later times that the Bible was to be slandered and have all these interpolations added into it
Allah even led Jesusâ followers astray by tricking so many people into believing that Jesus died. This could have been avoided if Allah hadnât been so intent on deceiving people. But this leads to more questions: Why would Allah want people to believe that Jesus was dead when he really wasnât? Muslims canât argue that Allah did it to protect Jesus from the Jews or Romans, since Allah was taking Jesus away safely anyway. So, why would Allah want to give Jesusâ enemies the satisfaction of seeing Jesus killed? Why not raise Jesus up without deceiving everyone about it? There seems to be no reason at all for Allah to deceive these people, especially since such a deception would soon lead to the formation of Christianity ⌠and the resulting deception of billions of people.
It was so that when people witness Jesus after his supposed crucifixtion they could believe that it was not him who was crucified, but someother and thus believe in him and his God Allah. It was a wonder why Jesus always refered to his followers as âye who have little faith.â Little did he know how misinterpreted his teachings would become.
And donât give me the God/Allah-confuses-those-whom-he-wills-to-be-confused [or something like that] excuse.
Finally, why arenât these enough to reject forthwith the claims of Islam and Mohammed?
It will never be enough to reject the claims of Muhammad, because he was a true Prophet of God, Just as Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve sons of Jacob, and Moses, and Jesus, and the many other Prophets who had come.
You are placing these absurdities as the teachings of Muhammad stating he was the greatest failure. The Prophet is never to be blamed for the failure of his nations people. If such criteria is used, then Moses would be the greatest failure in the history of all people. However, like i mentioned before Islam does not make any distinctions between these Prophets, and gives them much more respect than the Bible has given anyone.
Instead of correcting the mess he made, Allah took Christianity to the next level. The Qurâan states that Allah helped spread Christianity. Once Allah had caused belief in Jesusâ death and resurrection, he then worked diligently to aid the Christians in spreading their false message.
Yes, I belleve Allah helped spread Christianity. After Jesusâ supposed crucifixion many people became aware that the real Jesus had not been crucified and had become followers of him. It was in later times that the Bible was to be slandered and have all these interpolations added into it
Allah even led Jesusâ followers astray by tricking so many people into believing that Jesus died. This could have been avoided if Allah hadnât been so intent on deceiving people. But this leads to more questions: Why would Allah want people to believe that Jesus was dead when he really wasnât? Muslims canât argue that Allah did it to protect Jesus from the Jews or Romans, since Allah was taking Jesus away safely anyway. So, why would Allah want to give Jesusâ enemies the satisfaction of seeing Jesus killed? Why not raise Jesus up without deceiving everyone about it? There seems to be no reason at all for Allah to deceive these people, especially since such a deception would soon lead to the formation of Christianity ⌠and the resulting deception of billions of people.
It was so that when people witness Jesus after his supposed crucifixtion they could believe that it was not him who was crucified, but someother and thus believe in him and his God Allah. It was a wonder why Jesus always refered to his followers as âye who have little faith.â Little did he know how misinterpreted his teachings would become.
And donât give me the God/Allah-confuses-those-whom-he-wills-to-be-confused [or something like that] excuse.
Finally, why arenât these enough to reject forthwith the claims of Islam and Mohammed?
It will never be enough to reject the claims of Muhammad, because he was a true Prophet of God, Just as Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve sons of Jacob, and Moses, and Jesus, and the many other Prophets who had come.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
That is, as stated many times, one of the greatest faults in Islamic apologetics. You can trust the Bible when it agrees with Islamic thought, but if it contradicts what Mohammad - who came 600 years later with no connections to Judaism or the Christian Church, mind you - taught, then it cannot be trusted. That is the circular logic found in cults, as is the following statement:
In that case, God and His prophets changed their method of revelation, because Godâs revelation had always been confirmed by what came before. Nearly every chapter of the New Testament has references to the Old Testament - the apostles of Christ never taught that the Jews corrupted their scripture, but believe the New Testament. Rather, the New Testament was confirmed by the Old.
Suddenly along comes this man who claims to have visions from God. And yet, there is something different between him and what came some 5000 years before him: he can offer no direct citation of the original scripture, and in fact he tells us just to ignore previous scripture. Yet no where in the history of monotheism and Judeo-Christian history, even in the darkest days of Israelâs history, has any prophet ever come along and backed up his validity with, âJust take my word for it.â As a result, you get strange statements such as this:
Ishmael was never a prophet. This only existed when Mohammad came along. The only way to ever believe Ishmael was a prophet is to simply take Mohammadâs word for it, or believe in conspiratorial beliefs that are contradicted by simple historical fact. One could look to the original scripture, but Mohammad never cited original scripture. Again, the stark difference between the New Testament and the Koran is that while the New Testament confesses the original scripture and says, âSee, hereâs some original citations to prove our point,â the Koran confesses the original scripture but then says, âTake our word for it, they changed it.â
Again, arguing with âMohammad is right because Islam says he isâ or âThe Koran is right because Mohammad said it wasâ may earn points among other Muslims, but if the ultimate goal is to bring people to Islam and out of the hellfire where Christians are destined to go, then that goal will not be reached.
C
Christos
Guest
Jesis had accused the Jews of corrupting their Scripture.
Mathew Chapter 15
- For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
- But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
- And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
I will show you how Jesus Plagiarized David, and where Quran gives perfect citation of Jesus.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth Mather 5:5
Here is what it says in the Psalms.
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. Psalms 37:11
Did Jesus give any type of reference to David or the Psalms when he plagiarized this to be of his own.
Yet the Quran states.
âAnd verily We have written in the Psalms, after the Reminder: My righteous slaves will inherit the earthâ (Al-Qurâan 21: 105).
Here it gives perfect reference to the verse of the Psalms 37:29
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Here is your direct citation.
Ishmael was the firstborn and heir to Abraham. But because of the instigating of Sarah, Hagar was sent to the wilderness of Paran. This in some form proves that becaue he was the original heir of Abraham, he should also have been a Prophet. Iâm sure you will still deny it though.
That goal will be reached one day, when Jesus returns to the world. I hope that the multitude before then still achieve salvation and humble themselves in the sight of God.
On another note, I request that you go back and read my post which you have replied to and answer the other parables and questions i have placed before you. Why ignore them and choose simple what your heart desires.
A
Aydan
Guest
I need to clarify one thing because I didnât write it very well when I said I disagree with your theology I actually shouldâve said Islamic theology because I was referring to your religion not your own personal views. I have friends who are devout Muslims and I completely respect their personal commitment to their religion because I am also completely committed to Catholicism. My Turkish friends understand my commitment to my faith and they show me the same respect as I show them. Yes I am fully aware of the Islamic teachings on Christianity as I said before I have studied Islam extensively because I almost converted before returning to the Catholic faith. I appreciate you sharing your personal interpretations with us.
P
planten
Guest
After carefully reading the replies from christos, I feel there is no need of any more reply. Praise be to Allah the Almighty and may He bless all the good natured persons of all faiths. Amen.
A
Aydan
Guest
new question for our Muslim members
what evidence convinces you that the Koran is actually the Word of God?
what evidence convinces you that the Koran is actually the Word of God?
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