Question on Islam -- round 4

[planten]

R_not, you have (uncharacteristically, I think) come up with the understatement of the year, given that the traditional punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. And that is something we can all agree should be condemned.

**Even though it is believed and practiced that punishment for apostacy in Islam is death. But that is not true. It is not proved by the Quran. The punishment of death cannot be carrie dout on the words of Hadith only. A capital punishment must be proved by the Quran.

So, even though, the Muslim clerics hold the view that punsihment is death, it is not true. It is similar mistake as by the Jews of the time of Jesus who used to misinterpret the words of Torah or they always had wrong results of their study of the scripture.**

 

[jakasaki]

**Even though it is believed and practiced that punishment for apostacy in Islam is death. But that is not true. It is not proved by the Quran. The punishment of death cannot be carrie dout on the words of Hadith only. A capital punishment must be proved by the Quran.

So, even though, the Muslim clerics hold the view that punsihment is death, it is not true. It is similar mistake as by the Jews of the time of Jesus who used to misinterpret the words of Torah or they always had wrong results of their study of the scripture.**

Planten, there is a site below which lists every possible fatwa for islam, go in there and search for “apostate”, you will find that it states they should be put to death:

**

Islam Web
Offers discussion forums, an Islamic library, Fatwa center, and an introdution to the Noble Hadith and the Holy Qur’an. Also in Arabic and French.www.islamweb.net

• 228k - Cached**

Also, your claim is that if it’s not in the koran, well then it’s not true. It is true because this practice is being carried out in the 21st century.

 

[tomarin]

**Even though it is believed and practiced that punishment for apostacy in Islam is death. But that is not true. It is not proved by the Quran. The punishment of death cannot be carrie dout on the words of Hadith only. A capital punishment must be proved by the Quran.

So, even though, the Muslim clerics hold the view that punsihment is death, it is not true. It is similar mistake as by the Jews of the time of Jesus who used to misinterpret the words of Torah or they always had wrong results of their study of the scripture.**

It was in anticipation of responses such as yours that I specified “the traditional punishment for apostasy”. As a Christian I can’t comment on whether it is “true” or not (by which I think you mean in line with authentic Islam), but as long as it is practiced and believed by Muslim clerics as you acknowledge it needs to be condemned by decent people of all faiths.

 

[Lothair]

It was in anticipation of responses such as yours that I specified “the traditional punishment for apostasy”. As a Christian I can’t comment on whether it is “true” or not (by which I think you mean in line with authentic Islam), but as long as it is practiced and believed by Muslim clerics as you acknowledge it needs to be condemned by decent people of all faiths.

**
The only time and place that Muhammadans condemn the death penalty for apostacy [Ar: irtidad or riddah] is when they are talking to Christians in the West.**

 

[neploho]

Planten, there is a site below which lists every possible fatwa for islam, go in there and search for “apostate”, you will find that it states they should be put to death:

.

That’s funny. Because I know of a well, well respect Islamic jurist in Egypt, who is a strict Sunni, who has stated that while an Apostate must be punished, that punishment being death is not clear.

Outside of the Sunni old guard plenty of modern scholars have deconstructed the traditional conflation of singular apostacy with apostacy tied to treason, which they admite does warrent death.

Perhapse your websight does not contain, by any means, “every possible for Islam”.

 

[jakasaki]

That’s funny. Because I know of a well, well respect Islamic jurist in Egypt, who is a strict Sunni, who has stated that while an Apostate must be punished, that punishment being death is not clear.

Outside of the Sunni old guard plenty of modern scholars have deconstructed the traditional conflation of singular apostacy with apostacy tied to treason, which they admite does warrent death.

Perhapse your websight does not contain, by any means, “every possible for Islam”.

It’s not my website, but a web site muslims go to for clarification. You have a beef, take it up with them. They are surely speaking to muslims and islam. Which islam, that’s for you to find out. I couldn’t care less!

 

[neploho]

It’s not my website, but a web site muslims go to for clarification. You have a beef, take it up with them. They are surely speaking to muslims and islam. Which islam, that’s for you to find out. I couldn’t care less!

It’s not your website, but you did claim, contrary to a massive ammount of evidence, that this is the universal oppinion of jurists and the fatwas here are the only possible ones in Islam. I don’t have a beef with either you or them. I have a beef with intelectual sloth that is so common, acting like a google search or search on some website is somehow an appropiate way to study a matter.

 

[neploho]

oh, I see the confusion.

I did not mean “your” like you possess it, but as in it is now associated with you. That you have taken a sort of ownership over it by presenting it as your support etc.

 

[jakasaki]

It’s not your website, but you did claim, contrary to a massive ammount of evidence, that this is the universal oppinion of jurists and the fatwas here are the only possible ones in Islam. I don’t have a beef with either you or them. I have a beef with intelectual sloth that is so common, acting like a google search or search on some website is somehow an appropiate way to study a matter.

Well, say what you like.

I belong to quite a few forums and that is the fatwa site the muslims use. I didn’t google it, I didn’t go out and search for it.

And since you have a “problem with intelectual sloth(s)”, why are you here since your “intelectual” is above ours! Plenty of other “intelectual” boards on the net!

Feel free to wonder on in and converse with your own kind and leave some of us “sloths” be!

 

[Lothair]

That’s funny. Because I know of a well, well respect Islamic jurist in Egypt, who is a strict Sunni, who has stated that while an Apostate must be punished, that punishment being death is not clear.

Outside of the Sunni old guard plenty of modern scholars have deconstructed the traditional conflation of singular apostacy with apostacy tied to treason, which they admite does warrent death.

Perhapse your websight does not contain, by any means, “every possible for Islam”.

Neploho:

Your attempt to avoid the obvious is running right into me. The vast majority, in fact an overwhelming *plurality *of a near *concesus *view across *all *Islamic schools of jurisprudence is that when a Muslims repudiates Islam, the punishment is death. There are a few noteable exceptions for women and insane men, as well as children. However, for any Muslim to point at the exceptions with pride, in light of the rule, is just dawaganda.

It goes like this. A Muslim who may have repudiate his ‘deen’ is given a trial. If in fact he recants, there is a fine, perhaps a flogging and he returns home after some jail time. However, if there is no recantation in front of four male witnessess [two in some schools] the Muslim is put to death by beheading or crucifixion. In Saudi Arabia, at least 5 Arabs have been *crucified *in the past 20 years.

Baptism into Christianity has always been held as a sign of permanant repudiation, and grounds for the death penalty for treason. You Sunni scholar either doens’t exist or he is unfamiliar with ‘fiqh’ on the subject of apostacy. Killing apostates is ‘fardh’ or ‘an obligation’ in law.

I hope that this short post helped to further your understnading of Islam.

 

[Lothair]

It’s not your website, but you did claim, contrary to a massive ammount of evidence, that this is the universal oppinion of jurists and the fatwas here are the only possible ones in Islam. I don’t have a beef with either you or them. I have a beef with intelectual sloth that is so common, acting like a google search or search on some website is somehow an appropiate way to study a matter.

Neploho:

Here is how we’ll do this. You cite from Al-Ahzar University the number of rulings *against *death for apostacy, and I’ll show you all the ones in *favor *of the death penalty. Let me know when you are ready to begin. We’ll see, from our own study, what the univeral opinion really is.

You and I can also study just how often the penalty is carried out, and what the follow up discussion is among leading Sunni and Shi’a scholars.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?
By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.

Evidence from the Qur’an

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy. Verses about apostasy in the Qur’an speak only about God’s punishment of the apostate in the Hereafter.

The following Qur’anic verses illustrate two examples:

[Your enemies will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his/her faith and die as a denier [of the truth] – these it is whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.] (Al-Baqarah 2:217)…

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:137)

It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur’an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy.

As such there would be no opportunity to "again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth". In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml

 

[Lothair]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?
By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.

Evidence from the Qur’an

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy. Verses about apostasy in the Qur’an speak only about God’s punishment of the apostate in the Hereafter.

The following Qur’anic verses illustrate two examples:

[Your enemies will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his/her faith and die as a denier [of the truth] – these it is whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.] (Al-Baqarah 2:217)…

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe,

and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:137)

It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur’an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy.

As such there would be no opportunity to "again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth". In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml

Muslim Woman:

I am happy to read that on at least this forum you do not support the common Islamic answer to apostacy. However, let’s admit that you are speaking to a Christian audience here and have little regard for truth when speaking to kufir. So, I’ll correct you again.

Any Muslim who continues in his state of apostacy, when given an opportunity to recant, is to be killed. That is Islamic law. If that cannot be found in an explicit instruction in the text of the Quran, please go back and preach it to your own Ummah. I am not listening.

In many Muslim countries, the death sentence in carried out often. I do not see you decrying so vociferiously the practice when speaking to anyone other than a Western Christian. Prove me wrong. You and I both know Muslims support the murder of apostates, just not when you are speaking to Western audiences.

If a young boy apostacises, he is to be jailed until he is of age, then given the choice of returning to his ‘deen’ or being put to death. Here are a few other examples that found their was into Islamic law:

Narrated Abu Burda:
… The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a **fettered **man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "**I will not sit down till he has been killed. ****This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle **(for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’” (Sahih Bukhari 9.58, also Sahih Bukhari 9.271)

Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ " (Sahih Bukhari 4.260)

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Minorities in Muslim Countries: Enjoying Religious Rights?

Tuesday,Apr 28 ,2009

Time Makkah

From… 15:00…To… 16:30

GMT
From… 12:00…To…13:30

You can send your questions ahead to: living.shariah@iolteam.com

Every now and then, the question of whether non-Muslims in Muslim countries enjoy full religious rights or not arise. No doubt, states adopt different policies with regard to the rights of minorities in their territories. This fact is also applicable to minorities living in majority-non-Muslim countries.

Given the above, heated questions always arise such as: Do non-Muslims in Muslim countries enjoy full religious rights?

Does Islam allow preaching other religions in Muslim communities? What are the duties of non-Muslims towards the Muslim states they live in?

Therefore, IOL is conducting this live dialogue with Dr. Jamal Badawi to reply to users’ questions.

Dr. Jamal Badawi bio:

Dr. Jamal Badawi is a retired professor from Saint Mary’s University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, where he was a cross-appointed faculty member in the Departments of Religious Studies and Management.

He completed his undergraduate studies in Cairo, Egypt and his Masters and Ph. D. degrees at Indiana University in Bloomington, In.

Dr. Badawi has authored several books and articles on Islam. He also researched, designed and presented a 352-segnment television series on Islam, shown in many local TV stations in Canada and the US and in other countries as well. Audio and video copies of this series are widely available through out the world.

Some Titles of His Published Works are: Selected prayers, Gender Equity in Islam, Muhammad in the Bible, Status of Women in Islam, Polygamy in Islamic Law, The Earth and Humanity : An Islamic Perspective, Islam: A Brief Look, Muslim Woman’s Dress According to the Qur’an and the Sunnah and Islamic Ethics.

islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/select.asp

 

[planten]

It’s not my website, but a web site muslims go to for clarification. You have a beef, take it up with them. They are surely speaking to muslims and islam. Which islam, that’s for you to find out. I couldn’t care less!

**okay jakasaki, I had admitted that most Muslims do believe that apostacy is punishable by death. They have enacted laws according to that in Pakistan. Also, about blasphemy too, on flimsy grounds, they enacted that the blasphemer be put to death.

Muslims use those laws to punish Hindus and christians. False Witnesses are available very cheap… So the court also cannot help the victims. I feel that in the Quran, there is no punishment for blasphemy too. So please do not believe all that you hear about such things from the Muslims.

Believe that there is no death for any apostate unless he recants and kills some one. Capital punishment cannot be awarded on the basis of Hadith alone… **…

 

[katy_kt]

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?
By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml

You always paste from that site. But this website has a different take on it. Please respond: why did that person have a different interpretation. He also quote from Al-Bukhari, which is an authentic Hadith according to Sunnis.
islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

 

[planten]

You always paste from that site. But this website has a different take on it. Please respond: why did that person have a different interpretation. He also quote from Al-Bukhari, which is an authentic Hadith according to Sunnis.
islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

**Change of faith is allowed in Islam. So why it should allow the christians to become Muslims but disallow the Muslims to become christians. that is not fair. that is unislamic ideas, that is the wishes of the present day Muslims. But that is against the Quran. Hadith cannot overtake the teachings of the Quran.

At the most, the Hadith can help and serve and explain the Quran. But not in a reverse way. WE do not believe any Hadith which goes against the Quran. That is final. No Muslim would believe it.

Suppose Quran says God is One. If the Hadith says there are three (or two) gods then who will believe that Hadith? Nobody.

We have the Hadith as a servant of the Quran and a servant of the practice (Sunnah) of the holy prophet Muhammad. That order (mentioned in Bukhari) to kill the (apostate) man was from some person other than the prophet himself and it was a one man report. Did many others support or report a similar matter?? No. So the Hadith becomes a singular report and not reliable. On such serious matters, singular reports are not valid.

The best is to avoid such reports. the Muslim Clerics are using those things for some reason to stop people from leaving Islam, and becoming christians. That is not the right way. They cannot stop any one from becoming christian by that method. because that is not approved by Allah.

So it is a sin to kill or even harm an apostate. It is not allowed to harm any apostate, leave alone the killing of any such person. Rather the Muslim clergy should mend its bad ways so that Muslims do not say good-bye to Islam. That would be the right thing to do.**

 

[tomarin]

The only time and place that Muhammadans condemn the death penalty for apostacy [Ar: irtidad or riddah] is when they are talking to Christians in the West.

Just curious … how do you know this?

 

[dzheremi]

**Change of faith is allowed in Islam. **

Tell that to Mohammed Hegazy, Abdul Rahman, or Liiban Ibraahim Xasan. In Hegazy’s case, his conversion to Christianity was denied by an Egyptian court, and he has been threatened with death threats from clerics, who have also said that his daughter (born to him and his Christian-convert wife while they were hiding) should also be killed if she does not choose Islam!

Abdul Rahman had to flee to the West after narrowly escaping with his life when Afghanistan’s courts bowed to international pressure not to kill him but merely delcare him mentally unstable.

Liiban Ibraahim Xasan was not so lucky, as he was a Somali convert who was murdered in his home country for the offense of having converted and then preached Christianity in Somalia.

It seems that there is a disconnect between what happens to apostates of Islam over the ages and what Muslims say is sanctioned to happen to them. Some say they should die and support it with what they say is traditional Islamic jurisprudence, some say they should not die and support it with what they say is traditional Islamic jurisprudence. For the non-believer like me, we only see the endless lists of martyrs for the faith and are forced to say that no matter which Islamic party is right, the reality of the situation is that conversion from Islam to any other religion means a death sentence for those unlucky enough to be stuck in an Islamic society, or brave enough to stay in their homelands despite the enormous pressure to immigrate.

 

[Lothair]

Just curious … how do you know this?

By looking at the oldest Islamic sources and examining how those sources are applied in Islamic law when free from Western fetters. Then, listen to how Muslims discuss the topic in debates with Christians in the West. For example, slavery in Saudi Arabia only ended in the 1960’s, and only after enormous pressure from Western nations and the United Nations.

This article I wrote *might *help you a little:

answering-islam.org/authors/toler/lying_sin.html