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tomarin
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Do you speak any languages spoken in Islamic countries?
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Booklover
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Excellent article, Jesse! I wish more people would wake up to the deceit used by Muslims when interacting with the rest of us.
Vickie
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Lothair
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lol…yes I do…English!
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tomarin
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So even if contemporary Muslims did dispute the justice of the death penalty for apostasy in Muslim societies, you wouldn’t know because you don’t speak any of their languages. So essentially you don’t know what you’re talking about, and are simply posing as an “expert”.
I took your claim seriously because it seemed possible (though even if it were true it could be that Muslims remain silent out of fear of reprisal from traditionalists rather than out of agreement – silence doesn’t always indicate agreement) but it appears you have no real evidence for this claim and are just indulging in idle speculation.
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Aydan
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is Turkish good enough for you?
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tomarin
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Yes, of course. If you speak Turkish I consider you qualified to weigh in on Lothair’s claim.
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Lothair
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Some contemporary Muslims do dispute the historical treatment of apostates, but they have no effect or influence in Islamic society, and are challenging the majority view from the West and in the vernacular of the region. Sources are abundant.
I do know all of this because Arabic speaking Christians have translated the original sources and those are the sources I am using. If the translations are incorrect, let us know. But, for anyone to suggest that only an Arabic speaker is capable of commenting is just a vain attempt to change to subject.
I should be taken seriously, and so should the treatment of apostates who are murdered or jailed for no other reason than questioning Islam. Quit trying to throw up roadblocks and just discuss the topic.
Silence does equal consent, even if motivated by fear. So, essentially I do know what I am talking about, and your attempt to change the topic just withered up and died. After all you did admit in your post that there is fear of repraisal from traditionalists. Take a minute and think about the implications of that admission.
I went over your post a few times, and really, your conclusion is based on speculation of your own, and totally ignores the sources I have cited.
Lastly, only about 20% of Muslims read Arabic. English translations of Arabic and other sources are widely available. So, essentially, maybe you should read a few before making your follow up remarks.
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tomarin
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No, I haven’t drawn any conclusions. I consider it an open question until someone qualified to answer the question about contemporary Muslim societies weighs in. (I know what happened in traditional Muslim societies in past eras; that’s not in dispute.)
I do take freedom of religion and freedom of conscience very seriously.
I was willing to accept your claim on the basis of knowledge of languages other than Arabic. Heck, even Bahasa Indonesia would do. I know most Muslims do not speak Arabic, or live in the Middle East.
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R_not
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oh - oh - oh - I hear the masses of muslims condemning it… oops, maybe I just heard my guinea pigs squealing. I don’t hear a peep from the muslims about this - not one peep. Just like I don’t hear a peep about any atrocity that any muslim does - just protests when infidels get sick and tired of those atrocities and try to stop it - THEN we hear the muslims protesting and telling others to ‘go back to the ovens’, or ‘claiming victimhood’, or some other nonsense.
It gets old from you guys.
What I do hear are muslims trying to shut people up about discussing mohammed’s atrocities, or islam’s sharia laws and their atrocities, etc. For 1400 years they so easily shut people up via terror and death, and now you guys are in a tizzy that we are not shutting up anymore.
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Lothair
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So, according to you, all ***English speaking Muslims ***are disqualified from commenting on the topic? Think about your comments. You are not thinking them through before you type them out. Arabic into Bahasa is fine, but Arabic into English just won’t do?
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tomarin
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No, it doesn’t. Just because women do not take to the streets in rural India, for example, to protest widow-burning does not necessarily mean that they approve of the practice.
What I’m saying is that there may be other reasons why Muslims who disagree with the death penalty for apostasy keep mum; one of them might be fear of violence directed at them in retaliation for speaking out. Why do you think that’s impossible?
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Lothair
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I’ll tell you why it is impossible. Because it is codified by the ‘Sunnah’ of the prophet. Can you grasp the idea here? This isn’t a political discussion over the speed limit on the interstate freeway. Muslims are trained that the words and deeds of Muhammad set an example for all Muslims for all time. He and his Companions killed apsotates. I gave examples in an earlier post.
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tomarin
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You’re misrepresenting what I’m saying. I’m not saying that one language is better than another. I’m saying if you don’t speak any of the languages spoken in the majority-muslim countries, then you’re not in a position to back up the sweeping claim that “no Muslims condemn the death penalty for apostasy in Muslim countries” because even if they did you would not know what they were saying (in newspapers, books, websites, etc.).
I think your best bet here is to say this book or website tells me that this is the case and his credentials for knowing this are X, Y and Z.
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Lothair
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What I am saying is that Islamic law has BEEN TRANSLATED into English and if the TRANSLATIONS ARE INCORRECT then correct them. As these translations have been well authenticated by both Muslim and non-Muslims, your point is MOOT.
You ***are ***saying that one language is better than others. You have stated that langauges in MUSLIM MAJORITY countries are the only reliable ones, and that English cannot be considered as an authentic witness to ANYTHING RELATED TO ISLAM.
I never wrote, '“no Muslims condemn the death penalty for apostasy in Muslim countries”, so either recant or you will look like a fool. In fact, I have stated the O-P-P-O-S-I-T-E, while pointing out that the dissenters have NO AUTHORITY. Get it?
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tomarin
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I’m making a distinction here though which you are not picking up on between traditional Muslim societies and contemporary Muslim societies. I’m not in any way disputing that in pre-modern Islamic countries apostasy was punished by death; that is well documented. However I think it’s possible that in modern times certain Muslims who question traditional Islam for various reasons may have qualms about this and may wish to speak out about it, either by questioning or reinterpreting the scriptural sources for the death penalty.
This is why I was so interested in your claim that no Muslim condemns the traditional penalty for apostasy in Muslim countries, and wanted to know how you knew this. When I learned you did not speak any Middle Eastern or Asian languages, I concluded you did not have the requisite familiarity with Muslim societies to make such a strong statement. However, the question still stands – you may be right. So far we don’t know one way or the other.
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tomarin
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Your post number 165 said “The only time and place that Muhammadans condemn the death penalty for apostacy [Ar: irtidad or riddah] is when they are talking to Christians in the West.”
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Aydan
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tomarin
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Is there anything written you can show me? I can’t watch videos on this computer. Can you summarize his story? I am really interested in what kind of debates occur within Muslim countries about the justice of the traditional penalty for apostasy.
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Aydan
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of course I would be happy to. in the first part of the video he shows where the Koran it actually says that anyone who changes his religion must be killed. And I can also tell you that in Turkey Christians are severely persecuted and they can be thrown in jail for trying to teach people about Jesus Christ. In the video I have on my signature it tells the story of four Turkish Christians who were murdered just because they converted to Christianity.
Anyways here are the web sites for Dr. Caner and his brother Dr. Emir Caner you can read their stories there and there is a lot of other information as well.
emircaner.com/
erguncaner.com/home/default.php
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tomarin
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And that’s what has to change. I’m agreeing with you, R_not. We are in agreement. You must not have read my post carefully if you think I’m attacking you and deserve some kind of rude response.
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