Question on Islam -- round 4

[tomarin]

First of all, you have this image of a metropolitan Islamic society that regards individual religious liberty in the same way we view it in the West. That is a fiction created by dhimmi with nothing better to do than ignore the obvious.

I consider this issue of language to be a bit of a red herring. I’m not saying you can’t be at least minimally informed and have opinions about what’s going on in the Middle East without knowing a Middle Eastern language. I’m saying that if you’re going to make the very strong sweeping statement that no one in the Middle East (or any Islamic countries) questions the death penalty for apostasy, then your claim would have much more credibility if you spoke or read one of these languages. Because otherwise, you would have to rely on other people (people who might have agendas and present things in a selective way) in order to know what kinds of debates might be going on in these countries. Wouldn’t it be easy to miss something?

Anyway, upon re-reading your responses, it seems you’ve modified your original strong statement in Post #165. Now you’re saying there are dissidents who disagree with the death penalty in Islamic countries but they have no impact on the debates because they’re marginalized. If that’s your position now then I have no quarrel with you. But I wish to point out that you’re backtracking from what you originally said in Post #165. If there are dissidents who question the death penalty in the Middle East, then it is not true that no Muslims in the contemporary Middle East disagree with the death penalty. You were wrong.

 

[R_not]

With all due respect, the Hadith is not considered by Muslim scholars to be false. To the contrary, Bukhari’s collection is “[Generally accepted to be the most reliable and most prestigious of the collections of hadith.” See http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html

Further, simlar Hadith’s can be found elsewhere in Bukhari. For example, this one:

**Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ " **

A quick check of some of my references shows at least five Hadiths in Bukahari mandating the death penalty for Apostates, indicating that this Hadith has significant support. This probably explains why it is so well accepted among the major schools of Sunni Islam.

Further, the teaching to kill Apostates is followed by all four major Suni schools as well as some Shia. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam So all major schools of Islam apparently agree that this Hadith is reliable. The fact that the author of the “Satanic Verses” remains under a death Fatwa issued by Khomenni shows that this teaching is very much alive and accepted in the modern world.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

Not only are Bukhari’s hadiths one of the 6 accepted translations, sharia laws use the hadiths to form their laws. Sharia laws also use other sources too.

This is a famous excuse of muslims - to discount their own texts whenever they are faced with something they don’t like.

Maybe planten can enlighten us as to what sharia laws says about apostates - and I am not talking about what he wants to tell us - but what sharia laws say. Give us a quote and a reference so we can check it out. (I don’t think he has ever done this and he has gotten away with his diatribes up to this point)

There are many writeups about it. Law of apostasy and
Silas on Apostasy

Basically, if you really want to look at islam and what muslims face when they apostacize - listen to Caner’s videos. The muslims are at the very least exiled from family and friends and their country, at the worst they are killed. And I would suspect if they cannot leave the country they cannot live a decent life even if they prefer to live away from family and friends.

I suspect that the Caner brothers were better off because they are in our country, and they have each other. But as islam grows, so will the nastiness concerning apostates. Many apostates have to live in hiding, or have guards, especially if they speak about what islam is all about, even using its own texts.

 

[R_not]

One thing about that hadith to kill apostates - it was done when mohammed was warring against others and when the muslims would leave him/islam they would take up the fight against him with his enemies (this alone should tell us that islam isn’t a religion!).

But, since muslims want to think that islam, the koran, etc is for all time - they have taken this hadith (only one) and use it to justify their killing apostates.

Some books that go into this too are ‘Foundations of Islam, sharia Law and Introduction’ and ‘Freedom of Expression’, 212-250 (riddah).

 

[Aydan]

Let’s see. I have given evidence that the the death penalty for apostacy is proscribed and has been practiced for 1500 years. If need be, I can cite early Islamic historians who docuemnted and supported the practice. It is still in the penal code in many Islamic nations. In Iran, many annual hangings are for the crime of ‘treason’. That is a euphanism for apostacy.

It is Muslims who bribe converts to your religion. If you need me to, I can cite ayat from your Quran, and the Hadiths as well.

Caner has a problem with Islam, ans his acceptance of Jesus Christ is all he needs in this world and the next.

The Turkish Muslims who slaughtered Christians were taking their cue from both the Quran and the Traditions of your poet prophet, so Islam had everything to do with it.

Yes that is exactly what I’m saying. Thank you. I don’t agree with everything that the Caner brothers have to say especially in regards to Catholicism because they hold the typical Baptist viewpoint of Catholicism being too caught up in rigid traditions and no substance and I also personally disagree with their definition of the word allah but that doesn’t mean that everything they say is invalid. I’ve learned a lot from them. What better way to understand Turkish society and the role that Islam plays in it than to have two native Turks whose father was a well-known Islamic leader talking about Islam and who are able to explain it to Christians because they have extensive knowledge of both religions.

One more thing I want to point out these Turkish Muslims who want a government like the one in Iran are going against everything Atatürk stood for and is exactly what he wanted to prevent. That’s why he got rid of the caliphate because he felt it was the Islamic social institutions that prevent Turkey from becoming a modern nation and that is why he insisted that Turkey be a secular nation and not an Islamic one. Ever since then there are those Turks who agree with Atatürk and those who don’t. More often than not it is the Turks that want an Islamic government who end up killing Christians in the name of Islam and they certainly feel like the Koran gives them the authority to do so.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

God Increases His Blessings on Those Who Are Grateful*

By Harun Yahya

…If you tried to number God’s blessings, you could never count them. God is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful) (Surat An-Nahl 16:18)*

Despite this fact, most people fail to give thanks for any of the blessings they have. The reason for this is related in the Qur’an: Satan, who pledged to misguide people from God’s way, said that his ultimate aim is to make people be ungrateful to God. Satan’s defiant statements to God emphasize the importance of giving thanks to God:

(’Then I will come at them, from in front of them behind them, from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them thankful.’ He (God) said, ‘Get out of it, reviled and driven out. As for those of them (mankind) who follow you, I, will fill up Hell with every one of you.’) (Surat Al-A`raf 7:17-18)

…And when your Lord announced: “If you are grateful, I will certainly give you increase, but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is severe. (Surat Ibrahim 14:7)

Being grateful is also a sign of one’s closeness to and love of God. People who give thanks have the insight and capability to perceive the beauties and blessings that God creates. God’s Messenger, peace be upon him, also referred to this when he said:

When God gives you property, the bliss of God’s blessing and offering must be reflected on you.

…God states that He will test people with fear, hunger and loss of wealth or life. In such a situation, believers rejoice and feel grateful, hoping that God will reward them with the gifts of paradise in return for the steadfastness they displayed in this test. They know that God does not impose on anyone more than he can bear

The translation of the Qur’an used in this article is The Noble Qur’an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English by Hajj Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley, published by Bookwork, Norwich, UK.

islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Worship/Heart/article04.shtml

 

[planten]

Thank you Steve for your effort on post #221. You have shown the Hadith. Perhaps the Muslim Religious heads are reading those hadith too much. That is why all are voting for Death for the apostates. I take it exactly like all the Jews were crying hoarse in the court of Pilate to Crucify Jesus. I hope you understand. Thanks again. My voice may be a lone voice in teh desert.

 

[Lothair]

I consider this issue of language to be a bit of a red herring. I’m not saying you can’t be at least minimally informed and have opinions about what’s going on in the Middle East without knowing a Middle Eastern language. I’m saying that if you’re going to make the very strong sweeping statement that no one in the Middle East (or any Islamic countries) questions the death penalty for apostasy, then your claim would have much more credibility if you spoke or read one of these languages. Because otherwise, you would have to rely on other people (people who might have agendas and present things in a selective way) in order to know what kinds of debates might be going on in these countries. Wouldn’t it be easy to miss something?

Anyway, upon re-reading your responses, it seems you’ve modified your original strong statement in Post #165. Now you’re saying there are dissidents who disagree with the death penalty in Islamic countries but they have no impact on the debates because they’re marginalized. If that’s your position now then I have no quarrel with you. But I wish to point out that you’re backtracking from what you originally said in Post #165. If there are dissidents who question the death penalty in the Middle East, then it is not true that no Muslims in the contemporary Middle East disagree with the death penalty. You were wrong.

I agree that language is an irrelevant topic here, but it was a red herring that you threw into the water.

I haven’t backtracked at all, just clarified my statements to help your understanding. I and my colleages are credible sources on the topics I respond to. Let me again state in no uncertain terms that I have no interest in a newspaper article printed in Qatar in 1965 that discussed freedom of religion on the editorial page of a newspaper set up to polish the image of a 7th century death cult. That would be yet another red herring, and it would not follow that an insignificant fraction of absolutely unimportant opinions from a tiny segment of Islam should be considered as any more than ‘NONE’.

Let’s look at it from this point of view. Criticising the Sunnah of the prophet is a repudiation of Islam, therefore, any ‘dissident’ is an outlaw by choice, whose opinion against the death penalty would ***NOT ***be that of a Muslim. ERGO…back to my original post…

 

[tomarin]

I agree that language is an irrelevant topic here, but it was a red herring that you threw into the water.

No, it was relevant insofar as it concerns whether you are in a position to state “outside of the West, no Muslim questions the death penalty for apostasy”. But your attempt to raise issues of whether translations of original sources were valid evidence was a red herring. I guess you had to say something in response.

I haven’t backtracked at all, just clarified my statements to help your understanding.

Only if “clarification” is a euphemism for “changed what I was saying” in light of my objections.

I and my colleages are credible sources on the topics I respond to.

I think I’ve already demonstrated why that isn’t so, Lothair.

 

[Lothair]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

God Increases His Blessings on Those Who Are Grateful*

By Harun Yahya

…If you tried to number God’s blessings, you could never count them. God is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful) (Surat An-Nahl 16:18)*

Despite this fact, most people fail to give thanks for any of the blessings they have. The reason for this is related in the Qur’an: Satan, who pledged to misguide people from God’s way, said that his ultimate aim is to make people be ungrateful to God. Satan’s defiant statements to God emphasize the importance of giving thanks to God:

(’Then I will come at them, from in front of them behind them, from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them thankful.’ He (God) said, ‘Get out of it, reviled and driven out. As for those of them (mankind) who follow you, I, will fill up Hell with every one of you.’) (Surat Al-A`raf 7:17-18)

…And when your Lord announced: “If you are grateful, I will certainly give you increase, but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is severe. (Surat Ibrahim 14:7)

Being grateful is also a sign of one’s closeness to and love of God. People who give thanks have the insight and capability to perceive the beauties and blessings that God creates. God’s Messenger, peace be upon him, also referred to this when he said:

When God gives you property, the bliss of God’s blessing and offering must be reflected on you.

…God states that He will test people with fear, hunger and loss of wealth or life. In such a situation, believers rejoice and feel grateful, hoping that God will reward them with the gifts of paradise in return for the steadfastness they displayed in this test. They know that God does not impose on anyone more than he can bear

The translation of the Qur’an used in this article is The Noble Qur’an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English by Hajj Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley, published by Bookwork, Norwich, UK.

islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Worship/Heart/article04.shtml

Muslim Woman:

Since you insist on spamming, I’ll answer with some spam of my own:

Abul Quyasim had no less than 40 scribes helping him with the verses of the Quran. So, to argue that an illiterate man wrote the Quran all by himself is a little foolish. Also, the timing of his alleged revelations seems much suspect, as he tended to receive them when he himself wanted something someone else had. Like when he wanted sex with slaves 23:5,6] or when he wanted to have sex with the daughters of his wives [4:23] or to beat one of them [4:34] or subject them to any sexual desire he wished [2:223]. Lets not forget the crucial timing of the revelation that gave him permission to take his son-in-laws wife.

 

[Lothair]

No, it was relevant insofar as it concerns whether you are in a position to state “outside of the West, no Muslim questions the death penalty for apostasy”. But your attempt to raise issues of whether translations of original sources were valid evidence was a red herring. I guess you had to say something in response.

Only if “clarification” is a euphemism for “changed what I was saying” in light of my objections.

I think I’ve already demonstrated why that isn’t so, Lothair.

What you have demonstrated is that you are willing to ignore the obvious, lose badly and click your heels three times from your hiding place in the sand. I clarifed my point in light of your willful ignorance, your reaction is unimportant.

I and my fellow critics cannot ignore the evidence, and your willingess to do so doesn’t change the facts. Translations of original sources, when peer reviewed, are indeed evidence to support my claims. You remind me of the Muhammadans who get faced with their own material and have no choice but to fall back on ‘you don’t read Arabic’ as their only possible response. But hey, I guess you had to say something.

 

[jakasaki]

Muslim Woman:

Since you insist on spamming, I’ll answer with some spam of my own:

Abul Quyasim had no less than 40 scribes helping him with the verses of the Quran. So, to argue that an illiterate man wrote the Quran all by himself is a little foolish. Also, the timing of his alleged revelations seems much suspect, as he tended to receive them when he himself wanted something someone else had. Like when he wanted sex with slaves 23:5,6] or when he wanted to have sex with the daughters of his wives [4:23] or to beat one of them [4:34] or subject them to any sexual desire he wished [2:223]. Lets not forget the crucial timing of the revelation that gave him permission to take his son-in-laws wife.

Didn’t Ayshia say something like “your god hurries to please you mohamad”?? Or something like that. Mohamad would so some thing and next thing he has a revelation?

But how can that be?

Isn’t it written that Angel Gabriel visited mohamad only once a year and gave him revelations?

And on mohamads last year on earth the Angel visited him twice that year.??

Too many missing pieces.

 

[tomarin]

What you have demonstrated is that you are willing to ignore the obvious, lose badly and click your heels three times from your hiding place in the sand. I clarifed my point in light of your willful ignorance, your reaction is unimportant.

If you say so, Lothair.

I and my fellow critics cannot ignore the evidence, and your willingess to do so doesn’t change the facts. Translations of original sources, when peer reviewed, are indeed evidence to support my claims. You remind me of the Muhammadans who get faced with their own material and have no choice but to fall back on ‘you don’t read Arabic’ as their only possible response. But hey, I guess you had to say something.

Your inability to recognize the possiblilty of counterevidence because you have no familiarity with the languages spoken in the region you purport to be an expert in is at the crux of our dispute. Oh and by the way, if you want to pose as a scholar or expert with your “colleagues” and “peer review,” you should know that no one says “Muhammadans” anymore. It sounds distinctly archaic and peculiar.

 

[Booklover]

Didn’t Ayshia say something like “your god hurries to please you mohamad”?? Or something like that. Mohamad would so some thing and next thing he has a revelation?

But how can that be?

Isn’t it written that Angel Gabriel visited mohamad only once a year and gave him revelations?

And on mohamads last year on earth the Angel visited him twice that year.??

Too many missing pieces.

Good point, Pam!

Vickie

 

[jakasaki]

Good point, Pam!

Vickie

Right back at you Vickie!!!

Perhaps you and others can assist in giving this software version to all who need it!!!

The installation is easy to follow… See instructions provided!

Instructions on how to install Jesus 1.0

1. • Log on with God. (PRAY)
2. • **CONFESS **- "My system is corrupt and I need you.

I confess my sin.

Save me."

1. -**INSTALL **- "Lord Jesus, I need You. I make you Lord of my life.

Come into my life and be number one.

Write Yourself onto the tablet of my heart and mind and never leave me.

Re-write me and restore me."

 

[Booklover]

Right back at you Vickie!!!

Perhaps you and others can assist in giving this software version to all who need it!!!

The installation is easy to follow… See instructions provided!

Instructions on how to install Jesus 1.0

1. • Log on with God. (PRAY)
2. • **CONFESS **- "My system is corrupt and I need you.

I confess my sin.

Save me."

1. -**INSTALL **- "Lord Jesus, I need You. I make you Lord of my life.

Come into my life and be number one.

Write Yourself onto the tablet of my heart and mind and never leave me.

Re-write me and restore me."

Amen!

Vickie

 

[dolphinlove]

Amen!

Vickie

Heya Vickie :hug3:
The problem is, some peoples software wont be compatable with that, you need to completely wipe the system to fully install the software so it works, and leave no trace of the corruption from before

 

[jakasaki]

Heya Vickie :hug3:
The problem is, some peoples software wont be compatable with that, you need to completely wipe the system to fully install the software so it works, and leave no trace of the corruption from before

Excellent idea.

Perhaps and feel free to modify the software Jesus 1.0 and insert those up front instructions you mentioned. I believe the enhancement to the software will work better with your analysis and suggestion.

Many thanks and best regards,
Pam

 

[Lothair]

If you say so, Lothair.

Your inability to recognize the possiblilty of counterevidence because you have no familiarity with the languages spoken in the region you purport to be an expert in is at the crux of our dispute. Oh and by the way, if you want to pose as a scholar or expert with your “colleagues” and “peer review,” you should know that no one says “Muhammadans” anymore. It sounds distinctly archaic and peculiar.

I have in fact recognized, and refuted, your counterevidence. It is a common tactic with you Muhamamdans to fall back on argumentation that has little merit. I rely on authentic translations, peer reviewed. For you continue to bang on the same drum gives me a giggle.

Rather than claim that familiarity with the native languages of the region is the final determiner and test of expertise, why don’t you provide us with a few examples of jsut how my translations are wrong?

The crux of our dispute is that you can’t actually falsify my claims on apostacy, so you instead fall back on the topic of language. In another post on an unrelated thread, you said that you lived in Europe in 1988-1989. Now, unless you can speak and read every language in Europe, you are not equiped to speak of European history, politics or culture. Consistency in argumentation matters.

And again, tens of millions of Muslims speak and write English, so ultimately your Ahmed Deedatian argumentation is silly.

 

[tomarin]

I have in fact recognized, and refuted, your counterevidence. It is a common tactic with you Muhamamdans to fall back on argumentation that has little merit. I rely on authentic translations, peer reviewed. For you continue to bang on the same drum gives me a giggle.

Lothair, please stop calling me a Muslim. The fact that I disagree with you does not make me a Muslim. Dzheremi disagreed with you too; is he a Muslim?

Can you tell me how you would know with certainty that the only Muslims who disagree with the death penalty for apostasy are those in the West who do so disingenuously when you don’t speak or read any Middle Eastern, Near Eastern or Asian languages? You simply don’t know what debates go on there, so how would you know? Not everything is translated into English.

 

[Lothair]

If you say so, Lothair.

Your inability to recognize the possiblilty of counterevidence because you have no familiarity with the languages spoken in the region you purport to be an expert in is at the crux of our dispute. Oh and by the way, if you want to pose as a scholar or expert with your “colleagues” and “peer review,” you should know that no one says “Muhammadans” anymore. It sounds distinctly archaic and peculiar.

Lothair, please stop calling me a Muslim. The fact that I disagree with you does not make me a Muslim. Dzheremi disagreed with you too; is he a Muslim?

Can you tell me how you would know with certainty that the only Muslims who disagree with the death penalty for apostasy are those in the West who do so disingenuously when you don’t speak or read any Middle Eastern, Near Eastern or Asian languages? You simply don’t know what debates go on there, so how would you know? Not everything is translated into English.

Dhimmi Tomarin:

You aren’t merely disagreeing, you are creating a test that is impassable, in order to silence objection. You see, in your analysis, **critics **of Islam need to speak an ‘Islamic language’. How about practicioners? Let’s suppose I was a devout American Muhammadan who spoke only English. Would I be able to understand Islamic doctrines taken from English books? What about you as a ‘Catholic’? Do you read Latin? Latin is, after all, the offical language of the Church. So, if you do not read Latin, you are no longer permitted to speak of the Church.

I read peer reviewed translations from all over the Islamic world. Man, if I have to say that again I am going to have a STROKE!

Using your analysis, I would have to speak ALL OF THOSE LANGUAGES in order to form an informed opinion on apsotacy. Not just one, but all of them.

If I am WRONG the the subject, then PRESENT YOUR SOURCES rather than just dismissing my premise. Are you starting to see clearly?