Question on Islam -- round 4

[tomarin]

of course I would be happy to. in the first part of the video he shows where the Koran it actually says that anyone who changes his religion must be killed.

Thank you. Can you also tell me which Sura in the Qu’ran he is referring to?

 

[R_not]

And that’s what has to change. I’m agreeing with you, R_not. We are in agreement. You must not have read my post carefully if you think I’m attacking you and deserve some kind of rude response.

I am sorry if I misread your post - please accept my apologies.

 

[tomarin]

I am sorry if I misread your post - please accept my apologies.

Apology accepted, natch.

 

[Lothair]

I’m making a distinction here though which you are not picking up on between traditional Muslim societies and contemporary Muslim societies. I’m not in any way disputing that in pre-modern Islamic countries apostasy was punished by death; that is well documented. However I think it’s possible that in modern times certain Muslims who question traditional Islam for various reasons may have qualms about this and may wish to speak out about it, either by questioning or reinterpreting the scriptural sources for the death penalty.

This is why I was so interested in your claim that no Muslim condemns the traditional penalty for apostasy in Muslim countries, and wanted to know how you knew this. When I learned you did not speak any Middle Eastern or Asian languages, I concluded you did not have the requisite familiarity with Muslim societies to make such a strong statement. However, the question still stands – you may be right. So far we don’t know one way or the other.

First of all, you have this image of a metropolitan Islamic society that regards individual religious liberty in the same way we view it in the West. That is a fiction created by dhimmi with nothing better to do than ignore the obvious.

When I speak of ‘Muslims countries’, anyone with the prerequisite background would know that I am speaking of those countries that enforce Sharia law. There are noteable exceptions, like Central Asia nations that were a part of the Soviet Empire. But, the center of ORTODOX Islamic thought and doctine is in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, not Uzbekistan. And, there are no orthodox Islamic scholars in ‘Muslim countries’ rethinking the importance of protecting the Ummah by killing and/or jailing apostates. Just as there are no orthodox Christians ‘rethinking’ the resurrection of Jesus.

Unfamiliarity with language limits abolutely nothing. I suppose since you don’t speak Spanish you really couldn’t comment on the swine flu epidemic, right? Or since you don’t speak Russian it is impossible that you could have any skill in the study of the Bolshevic Revolution. As a matter of fact, if you don’t read Latin you have no business talking about the Catholic Church at all! Don’t speak French? Then the French Revolution is off limits to you. Are you getting the point yet?

It is true that Muslims in the West are the only ones speaking on the subject of apostacy, and I am very suspicious of the motive, especially considering the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[Aydan]

Thank you. Can you also tell me which Sura in the Qu’ran he is referring to?

I apologize it was this passage from the Hadith not the Koran

‘Whoever changes his religion, kill him’ Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

 

[Aydan]

Yes, of course. If you speak Turkish I consider you qualified to weigh in on Lothair’s claim.

well for the sake of full disclosure Turkish is my second language but I’m still in training so I’m not fluent yet. But as I said before in Turkey people can be thrown into jail for spreading Christianity. It’s also considered a violation of Turkishnrss to speak against Mohammed and Islam so yes Lothair’s claim is correct even in modern societies such as Turkey. As a matter of fact there is always a battle in Turkish society between the Turks that want Turkey to remain secular and those Turks who want to establish an Islamic theocracy based on sharia law like they have in Iran. Many Turks who want an Islamic society are not tolerant of Christians or any other minority which is why Christians are in danger of their and the government will not allow new churches. those web sites I gave you earlier should answer your question more fully

 

[dzheremi]

Unfamiliarity with language limits abolutely nothing. I suppose since you don’t speak Spanish you really couldn’t comment on the swine flu epidemic, right? Or since you don’t speak Russian it is impossible that you could have any skill in the study of the Bolshevic Revolution.

I speak both of these fluently. It helps in reading primary source documents, so I’m not so sure I would be quick to say that it absolutely doesn’t matter (that there’s no difference between, say, reading Pushkin in the original or in translation), but there are ways around it, definitely. Every language has some things that are not directly translatable (idioms, proverbs, etc.), but no language is so full of these things as to make translation impossible, or to make any translation invalid or wrong by the nature of it being a translation. (I used to work in translation…some jobs were certainly easier than others!)

It is true that Muslims in the West are the only ones speaking on the subject of apostacy, and I am very suspicious of the motive, especially considering the overwhelming evidence to the contrary

I’m not sure how you can know this if you don’t speak the languages, though. The majority of texts written on this subject would most likely be in Arabic or any number of Indo-European or Indo-Iranian languages. I doubt very much if any outside of the most influential in the field of Islamic jurisprudence or philosophy ever get translated into European languages.

I’m not willing to say you’re wrong here, but I would re-think some of your assumptions if I were you.

 

[Lothair]

I speak both of these fluently. It helps in reading primary source documents, so I’m not so sure I would be quick to say that it absolutely doesn’t matter (that there’s no difference between, say, reading Pushkin in the original or in translation), but there are ways around it, definitely. Every language has some things that are not directly translatable (idioms, proverbs, etc.), but no language is so full of these things as to make translation impossible, or to make any translation invalid or wrong by the nature of it being a translation. (I used to work in translation…some jobs were certainly easier than others!)

I’m not sure how you can know this if you don’t speak the languages, though. The majority of texts written on this subject would most likely be in Arabic or any number of Indo-European or Indo-Iranian languages. I doubt very much if any outside of the most influential in the field of Islamic jurisprudence or philosophy ever get translated into European languages.

I’m not willing to say you’re wrong here, but I would re-think some of your assumptions if I were you.

People here need to read what I write, not what they think I wrote. I did not say that understanding the original language ‘absolutely’ doesn’t matter. I said it ‘absolutely limits nothing’. Idioms are also the exception to the lexicon, and REMEMBER… IT ISN’T ME TRANSLATING!!! IT IS ARABIC SPEAKING CHRISTIANS AND ARABIC SPEAKING MUSLIMS WHO ARE TRANSLATING THE TEXT INTO ENGLISH!!! GET IT…? HELLO? IS THIS THING ON? If the translations are incorrect, then they can be challenged, but your comments prove that you are not reading mine.

It is only the ‘most influential’ texts that are important in this debate.

Tell me, what assumptions have I made?

 

[planten]

of course I would be happy to. in the first part of the video he shows where the Koran it actually says that anyone who changes his religion must be killed. And I can also tell you that in Turkey Christians are severely persecuted and they can be thrown in jail for trying to teach people about Jesus Christ. In the video I have on my signature it tells the story of four Turkish Christians who were murdered just because they converted to Christianity.
Anyways here are the web sites for Dr. Caner and his brother Dr. Emir Caner you can read their stories there and there is a lot of other information as well.
emircaner.com/
erguncaner.com/home/default.php

**Aydan, you have failed to provide anything useful against Islam. If some christians were murdered in Turkey due to becoming christians (Apostacy) then it was the fault of the Turks, not the fault of Islam. What have you shown anything from Quran to blame Islam. You have shown nothing.

That fellow Caner may have had problems with the Turkish Maulvis. That was not the fault of Islam. If he left islam, he will be punished in hell in next life. that is what islam says. He can have a new wife here and a new home too. because such things are offered by the church to new potential converts. But there is no hope for him in the next world. Even in this world he will suffer some dis-satisfaction. Caner will suffer spiritually. That could be great torment.

In India too, in Years 1870 A.D. the church used to win over weak maulvis (Clerics), sons of Maulvis and used to give them new wife and bangalow, under the British rule in India. That did not mean Islam was wrong or false.

I do not want to continue it further. On demand of one Catholic friend (tomarin), you have failed to give any sensible argument against islam. Rather you have again given reference to some videos which nobody is ready to watch.**

 

[dzheremi]

People here need to read what I write, not what they think I wrote. I did not say that understanding the original language ‘absolutely’ doesn’t matter. I said it ‘absolutely limits nothing’. Idioms are also the exception to the lexicon, and REMEMBER… IT ISN’T ME TRANSLATING!!! IT IS ARABIC SPEAKING CHRISTIANS AND ARABIC SPEAKING MUSLIMS WHO ARE TRANSLATING THE TEXT INTO ENGLISH!!! GET IT…? HELLO? IS THIS THING ON? If the translations are incorrect, then they can be challenged, but your comments prove that you are not reading mine.

It is only the ‘most influential’ texts that are important in this debate.

Tell me, what assumptions have I made?

I did not mean to imply that you had said that it makes absolutely no difference. I only meant to clarify that the difference that it does make is not so great as to make translation suspect by virtue of it being translation. If you want to still yell, be my guest, but I am supporting you on that point against the people who might say that you cannot possibly know about something just because you do not know the original language that it is written in.

On the “influential” vs. “non-influential” texts: My point in bringing this up is that while the most influential texts probably have been translated into English or another European language and hence would be available to you, what is most current is not necessarily what is most influential. It stands to reason that if it seems like Middle Eastern societies are stagnant in dealing with this problem, then any people who are trying to introduce reform on this issue are probably among the less influential in the society as a whole, since they are unsuccesful in their fight against the establishment. So you are unlikely to hear about them, as all that is available to you will be the old, influential texts by scholars or jurists that probably from the foundation of the traditional interpretation that says apostate killing may be justified. How would you know if there is a great deal of resistence to this whole situation among today’s Arabs if your only resource in English are these old texts that are translated for you by Arab Christians or others? You yourself say that it is only the most influential texts that matter. Then that precludes the non-influential (non-traditional?) anti-apostate killing movement and its writings.

None of this is to say that you cannot find anti-apostate killing writings by Middle Eastern people in English (such as this article), but I have a feeling that this might not be seen as trustworthy to you based on a previous post where you said: “It is true that Muslims in the West are the only ones speaking on the subject of apostacy, and I am very suspicious of the motive, especially considering the overwhelming evidence to the contrary”.

So, what assumptions are you making? 1) That you know what sorts of things are being written and talked about in languages that you don’t speak based on translations of old texts that may or may reflect the current debates or thinking on a given issue; 2) That Muslims in the West only talk about apostasy with the goal of deceiving non-Muslims as to their “true” position on the subject.

 

[planten]

I apologize it was this passage from the Hadith not the Koran

‘Whoever changes his religion, kill him’ Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

**Aydan, this is a false Hadith. The prophet would never say such a bad thing. Does it mean that whoever becomes a Muslim by leaving christianity, we must kill him?? It seems to be a general statement “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” What a foolish sentence!!. it could mean that any one becoming a Muslim from the Jews or becoming a Muslim from the christians or becoming a christian from the Muslims should be killed. Think over. Go by the words please.

Such a bad report is not valid. It is against the teaching of the Quran. Muhammad taught and practiced Quran only. Many people had been cooking false Hadith before Imam Bukhari started collecting Hadith i.e. 200 years after the prophet passed away peacefully. He (bukhari) himself says that he had a record of 10,000 false Hadith. Some are still to be found in the books.

We have the Quran to shunt out such bad reports. We are not helpless and worried. There is no problem… **.

 

[Aydan]

**Aydan, you have failed to provide anything useful against Islam. If some christians were murdered in Turkey due to becoming christians (Apostacy) then it was the fault of the Turks, not the fault of Islam. What have you shown anything from Quran to blame Islam. You have shown nothing.

That fellow Caner may have had problems with the Turkish Maulvis. That was not the fault of Islam. If he left islam, he will be punished in hell in next life. that is what islam says. He can have a new wife here and a new home too. because such things are offered by the church to new potential converts. But there is no hope for him in the next world. Even in this world he will suffer some dis-satisfaction. Caner will suffer spiritually. That could be great torment.

In India too, in Years 1870 A.D. the church used to win over weak maulvis (Clerics), sons of Maulvis and used to give them new wife and bangalow, under the British rule in India. That did not mean Islam was wrong or false.

I do not want to continue it further. On demand of one Catholic friend (tomarin), you have failed to give any sensible argument against islam. Rather you have again given reference to some videos which nobody is ready to watch.**

sorry your arguments don’t hold water as usual.Caner’s father was a well-known Muslim leader whether you choose whether to believe it or not is not my problem. Yeah the next thing you’ll tell me is that it wasn’t real Muslim or he can’t possibly understand Islam because he’s a Turk. I’m not trying to discredit Islam I was simply responding to a question for a fellow Catholic. I have a right to post videos or whenever I choose if I feel it is relevant. I take issue with you saying that no one watches my stuff no one makes you read my posts if you don’t like what I have to say then don’t read my posts. These personal attacks on me because you don’t like what I say is getting kind of old. By the way how much have you studied Turkish history and do you speak the language?

 

[planten]

sorry your arguments don’t hold water as usual.Caner’s father was a well-known Muslim leader whether you choose whether to believe it or not is not my problem. Yeah the next thing you’ll tell me is that it wasn’t real Muslim or he can’t possibly understand Islam because he’s a Turk. I’m not trying to discredit Islam I was simply responding to a question for a fellow Catholic. I have a right to post videos or whenever I choose if I feel it is relevant. I take issue with you saying that no one watches my stuff no one makes you read my posts if you don’t like what I have to say then don’t read my posts. These personal attacks on me because you don’t like what I say is getting kind of old. By the way how much have you studied Turkish history and do you speak the language?

**Sorry Aydan, Tomarin had asked you about the arguments of that highly capable Turkish fellow who became apostate (Murtadd). But you could not give anything. All you had was a Hadith. That was my problem with you. I also wanted to learn something important from you. But it seems that you could not deliver the goods.

All you had was much praise for the Caner fellow without any knowledge about what he was preaching. You present sme one’s videos. Any one interested will watch them. But when it is specifically told to you that person is not willing to see the videos then you should refrain from presenting the videos. Do you understand?? Thanks.**

 

[SteveLohr]

**Aydan, this is a false Hadith. The prophet would never say such a bad thing. Does it mean that whoever becomes a Muslim by leaving christianity, we must kill him?? It seems to be a general statement “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” … Such a bad report is not valid. It is against the teaching of the Quran. Muhammad taught and practiced Quran only. **.

With all due respect, the Hadith is not considered by Muslim scholars to be false. To the contrary, Bukhari’s collection is “[Generally accepted to be the most reliable and most prestigious of the collections of hadith.” See http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html Further, simlar Hadith’s can be found elsewhere in Bukhari. For example, this one:

**Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ " **

A quick check of some of my references shows at least five Hadiths in Bukahari mandating the death penalty for Apostates, indicating that this Hadith has significant support. This probably explains why it is so well accepted among the major schools of Sunni Islam.

Further, the teaching to kill Apostates is followed by all four major Suni schools as well as some Shia. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam So all major schools of Islam apparently agree that this Hadith is reliable. The fact that the author of the “Satanic Verses” remains under a death Fatwa issued by Khomenni shows that this teaching is very much alive and accepted in the modern world.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

 

[Aydan]

Sorry Aydan, Tomarin had asked you about the arguments of that highly capable Turkish fellow who became apostate (Murtadd). But you could not give anything. All you had was a Hadith. That was my problem with you. I also wanted to learn something important from you. But it seems that you could not deliver the goods.
all you had was much praise for the Caner fellow without any knowledge about what he was preaching. You present sme one’s videos. Any one interested will watch them. But when it is specifically told to you that person is not willing to see the videos then you should refrain from presenting the videos. Do you understand?? Thanks.

if you actually read the conversation you will notice that I wasn’t speaking for myself I was quoting Dr.Caner so it wasn’t my argument at all. Why do I need to refute Islam when I have expert testimony from Dr.Caner? The answer is easy I don’t need to refute Islam nor do I want to because I’m not Muslim.
I understand perfectly English is my native language. Again if you actually read the conversation you will see that I summarized the video and if you had bothered to even look at the links that I posted after he asked me for information other than videos you will see the two links I posted are not videos at all. Really you should actually read what people write and look at links before you make judgments.

 

[planten]

With all due respect, the Hadith is not considered by Muslim scholars to be false. To the contrary, Bukhari’s collection is “[Generally accepted to be the most reliable and most prestigious of the collections of hadith.” See http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html

Further, simlar Hadith’s can be found elsewhere in Bukhari. For example, this one:

**Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody discards his religion, kill him.’ " **

**I admitted that Muslim countries are acting on some material to kill the apostates. I do not know why. I do not believe they are right. This is not the only problem with the present day Muslims. There are quite a number of bad beliefs that i can enumerate non-stop without delay. They are not right in killing any one who recants his faith.

I wonder why they welcome the converts to Islam. That proves they are not right. There is no punishment for any apostate in islam. The Muslims are not even to harm any one who recants Islam.

You had about five more Hadith. You could have kindly posted them. But there will be many flaws in those Hadith as usual. “If somebody discards his religion, kill him.” It should be supported by the Quran otherwise it is a false report. I know one case in which a few persons ahd recanted Islam and killed the camel herdsman and went away. They were murderers. They were caught very quickly and put to death, not for recanting but for killing.**

A quick check of some of my references shows at least five Hadiths in Bukahari mandating the death penalty for Apostates, indicating that this Hadith has significant support. This probably explains why it is so well accepted among the major schools of Sunni Islam

.

Okay, please bring them in too.

Further, the teaching to kill Apostates is followed by all four major Suni schools as well as some Shia. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam So all major schools of Islam apparently agree that this Hadith is reliable. The fact that the author of the “Satanic Verses” remains under a death Fatwa issued by Khomenni shows that this teaching is very much alive and accepted in the modern world.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

** The Sunni and Shia and Ahle Hadith may all be hoping to kill the apostates according to their bad wishes, not according to Quran.

We go by principles:

1. capital punishment cannot be awarded simply by Hadith alone.
2. The matters of Halaal and Haraam cannot be decided by Hadith alone.
3. Any Hadith which teaches things against the express orders of Quran is invalid.
4. Any Hadith which teaches anything against another well known Hadith is also invalid.

The contradictory Hadith need not be entertained. They are not the word of God. If we take them a strue then we have to say good bye to some verses of the Quran. Or we have to deny the goodness of some well known Hadith. That is not allowed. So we say good-bye to such false Hadith.

I believe this matter of killing the apostate was taken from the jews. Some articles of faith were initially taken from the bibleOT and NT. The prophet practiced them until they were abrogated by new revelation. Facing to Jerusalem during daily prayers was one example of those things. Similarly, the prophet stoned to death some adulterers befor ethe orders to give them 100 lashes was revealed. Enough said on this matter.**

 

[katy_kt]

**Change of faith is allowed in Islam. So why it should allow the christians to become Muslims but disallow the Muslims to become christians. that is not fair. that is unislamic ideas, that is the wishes of the present day Muslims. But that is against the Quran. Hadith cannot overtake the teachings of the Quran.

At the most, the Hadith can help and serve and explain the Quran. But not in a reverse way. WE do not believe any Hadith which goes against the Quran. That is final. No Muslim would believe it.

Suppose Quran says God is One. If the Hadith says there are three (or two) gods then who will believe that Hadith? Nobody.

We have the Hadith as a servant of the Quran and a servant of the practice (Sunnah) of the holy prophet Muhammad. That order (mentioned in Bukhari) to kill the (apostate) man was from some person other than the prophet himself and it was a one man report. Did many others support or report a similar matter?? No. So the Hadith becomes a singular report and not reliable. On such serious matters, singular reports are not valid.

The best is to avoid such reports. the Muslim Clerics are using those things for some reason to stop people from leaving Islam, and becoming christians. That is not the right way. They cannot stop any one from becoming christian by that method. because that is not approved by Allah.

So it is a sin to kill or even harm an apostate. It is not allowed to harm any apostate, leave alone the killing of any such person. Rather the Muslim clergy should mend its bad ways so that Muslims do not say good-bye to Islam. That would be the right thing to do.**

Am I right in saying that you do not consider everything in Al-Bukhari to be correct?

But I am interested in the replies of our Sunni Muslim friends to the article. I thought that for many Sunni Muslims, Al-Bukhari is considered authentic and nothing in it is unconsidered untrue or false.
(I pasted the post below again)

You always paste from that site. But this website has a different take on it. Please respond: why did that person have a different interpretation. He also quote from Al-Bukhari, which is an authentic Hadith according to Sunnis.
islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

 

[Sam_777]

Aydan;5136616:

I apologize it was this passage from the Hadith not the Koran

‘Whoever changes his religion, kill him’ Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

**Aydan, this is a false Hadith. The prophet would never say such a bad thing. Does it mean that whoever becomes a Muslim by leaving christianity, we must kill him?? **

Death is the punishment if someone leaves Islam, here are the direct authentic hadiths about the death punishment of apostasy:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
(E) (A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”
(E) (A)

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”
(E) (A)

 

[Lothair]

**Aydan, you have failed to provide anything useful against Islam. If some christians were murdered in Turkey due to becoming christians (Apostacy) then it was the fault of the Turks, not the fault of Islam. What have you shown anything from Quran to blame Islam. You have shown nothing.

That fellow Caner may have had problems with the Turkish Maulvis. That was not the fault of Islam. If he left islam, he will be punished in hell in next life. that is what islam says. He can have a new wife here and a new home too. because such things are offered by the church to new potential converts. But there is no hope for him in the next world. Even in this world he will suffer some dis-satisfaction. Caner will suffer spiritually. That could be great torment.

In India too, in Years 1870 A.D. the church used to win over weak maulvis (Clerics), sons of Maulvis and used to give them new wife and bangalow, under the British rule in India. That did not mean Islam was wrong or false.

I do not want to continue it further. On demand of one Catholic friend (tomarin), you have failed to give any sensible argument against islam. Rather you have again given reference to some videos which nobody is ready to watch.**

Let’s see. I have given evidence that the the death penalty for apostacy is proscribed and has been practiced for 1500 years. If need be, I can cite early Islamic historians who docuemnted and supported the practice. It is still in the penal code in many Islamic nations. In Iran, many annual hangings are for the crime of ‘treason’. That is a euphanism for apostacy.

It is Muslims who bribe converts to your religion. If you need me to, I can cite ayat from your Quran, and the Hadiths as well.

Caner has a problem with Islam, ans his acceptance of Jesus Christ is all he needs in this world and the next.

The Turkish Muslims who slaughtered Christians were taking their cue from both the Quran and the Traditions of your poet prophet, so Islam had everything to do with it.

 

[SteveLohr]

Planten-

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Here are my counter-points:

** I admitted that Muslim countries are acting on some material to kill the apostates. I do not know why. I do not believe they are right. /COLOR]**

I would respectfully argue that the reason they are killing converts is that all the major schools of Islam have support from the most reliable collection of Hadith that mandates such action.

You had about five more Hadith. You could have kindly posted them.

See below

But there will be many flaws in those Hadith as usual. “If somebody discards his religion, kill him.” It should be supported by the Quran otherwise it is a false report. /COLOR]

The Quran has no specific prohibition against the death penalty in this world, and contains many references to divine wrath for apostasy in the next world. See 3:72, 3:90, 16:106, 4:137, 5:54. This fact, combined with the reliable Haddith of Bukari (see below) have not suprisingly, led all of the major schools to mandate death for apostasy. I am glad that you personally reject such Hadith, as such Hadith are (IMHO) murderous and evil. But the question isn’t your personal belief, it is what Islam requires. As I have demonstrated above, the requirement of death for apostasy is accepted by mainstream Islam based on interpretive rules that go back to its earliest days. In order to reject this, I believe you must base your opinion on reliable facts and objective evaluation criteria that is accepted by mainstream Islam. Otherwise, IMHO what you are proposing is not Islam, but your own personal religion.

**Bukari 9:83:17 Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims**.”

Bukari 4:52:260
**Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.**’ "

Bukaril 9:84:57

**Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’**”

Bukari 9:84:58
**Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed**. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”

Bukari 9:89:71

**Narrated Abu Musa:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him **(as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.