Question on Islam -- round 4

[tomarin]

Dhimmi Tomarin:

Now that’s not very nice. I suppose if you have no argument you have to resort to name-callling.

 

[jakasaki]

Now that’s not very nice. I suppose if you have no argument you have to resort to name-callling.

Tomarin - I don’t want to get into a tit-for-tat here between you and Lothair, because these conversations back and forth for this topic are too much for me.

My question to you Tomarin is do you deny the “death penalty” under islam for apostates?

By deny I am asking in your opinion and knowledge if they occur in the middle east?

Thanks!

 

[R_not]

Right back at you Vickie!!!

Perhaps you and others can assist in giving this software version to all who need it!!!

The installation is easy to follow… See instructions provided!

Instructions on how to install Jesus 1.0

1. • Log on with God. (PRAY)
2. • **CONFESS **- "My system is corrupt and I need you.

I confess my sin.

Save me."

1. -**INSTALL **- "Lord Jesus, I need You. I make you Lord of my life.

Come into my life and be number one.

Write Yourself onto the tablet of my heart and mind and never leave me.

Re-write me and restore me."

being retired from mainframe systems programming - I really perked up with this one. I really like it!

 

[R_not]

Now that’s not very nice. I suppose if you have no argument you have to resort to name-callling.

It is a name, but it is more of a state of mind too. After centuries of being dhimmi there is something that was discovered in the West and that is the fact that there is a syndrome called ‘Stockholm syndrome’. And many dhimmi do indeed have that mindset in them.

I call it an apologist, or an appeaser. Either way, it doesn’t do anyone any good except to sharpen our skills at debate. When we come up against this mindset in the future it will lead us in a direction to deal with it in one way or the other.

 

[jakasaki]

being retired from mainframe systems programming - I really perked up with this one. I really like it!

That’s right my dear… don’t forget to upload Jesus version 1.0 and send the software to everyone you know!

Hugs to you and best regards,
Pam

 

[R_not]

Dhimmi Tomarin:

You aren’t merely disagreeing, you are creating a test that is impassable, in order to silence objection. You see, in your analysis, **critics **of Islam need to speak an ‘Islamic language’. How about practicioners? Let’s suppose I was a devout American Muhammadan who spoke only English. Would I be able to understand Islamic doctrines taken from English books? What about you as a ‘Catholic’? Do you read Latin? Latin is, after all, the offical language of the Church. So, if you do not read Latin, you are no longer permitted to speak of the Church.

I read peer reviewed translations from all over the Islamic world. Man, if I have to say that again I am going to have a STROKE!

Using your analysis, I would have to speak ALL OF THOSE LANGUAGES in order to form an informed opinion on apsotacy. Not just one, but all of them.

If I am WRONG the the subject, then PRESENT YOUR SOURCES rather than just dismissing my premise. Are you starting to see clearly?

I would keep in mind that all the translations that we have in English - the 5 of the koran and the 6 of the hadiths - are indeed accepted translations.

If Arabic is the only language that is acceptable for muslims then the koran/islam isn’t for everyone. It all falls short of being universal. (well, it falls short in a lot of areas - but this is just for the Arabic/English excuses)

the whole problem with islam is that the muslims are not used to debate about their stuff - they shut them up real quick! But, they are indeed used to throwing out excuses and another strategy - victimization, as I have read in other posts and the news. The muslims are indeed trying to shut the West up though. They are doing it via the UN. And in our country they use lawsuits and bullying. Well, bullying is used along with these other strategies. And claiming victimhood is a type of bullying - the ‘martyr’ bully. (there are different types of bullying in order to try to control others)

 

[jakasaki]

I would keep in mind that all the translations that we have in English - the 5 of the koran and the 6 of the hadiths - are indeed accepted translations.

If Arabic is the only language that is acceptable for muslims then the koran/islam isn’t for everyone. It all falls short of being universal. (well, it falls short in a lot of areas - but this is just for the Arabic/English excuses)

the whole problem with islam is that the muslims are not used to debate about their stuff - they shut them up real quick! But, they are indeed used to throwing out excuses and another strategy - victimization, as I have read in other posts and the news. **The muslims are indeed trying to shut the West up though. They are doing it via the UN. ** And in our country they use lawsuits and bullying. Well, bullying is used along with these other strategies. And claiming victimhood is a type of bullying - the ‘martyr’ bully. (there are different types of bullying in order to try to control others)

Yup, they want the UN to pass laws that would become illigal to critisize islam.

Yet you hear of NO other religion putting this demand to the UN or other civilized governments.

 

[Lothair]

Now that’s not very nice. I suppose if you have no argument you have to resort to name-callling.

Dhimmi Tomarin:

I am still waiting for you to take a rational position that demonstrates consistency in your approach. If you need me to recap, I would be willing. But, it goes something like this:

Tell me why I must read/speak a language spoken in an Islamic nation, besides English, in order to comment on Islam? I read ‘el haretz’ in English every week. Using your analysis, I am not permitted to comment on contemporary events in Israel since I am not reading the articles in Hebrew.

It seems to me that you are just bigoted towards English and the West. Are you starting to see just how untenable your position is? For example, about 37% of Egyptians speak English. Is that enough to make English an ‘Islamic language’?

 

[Aydan]

Can you tell me how you would know with certainty that the only Muslims who disagree with the death penalty for apostasy are those in the West who do so disingenuously when you don’t speak or read any Middle Eastern, Near Eastern or Asian languages? You simply don’t know what debates go on there, so how would you know? Not everything is translated into English.

Your argument is** a weak one not to mention it borders on absurd** you don’t have to be able to speak all those languages to understand the debates that go on in Islam. If you were truly concerned about the language barrier problem you should’ve been more than satisfied since both of the Caner brothers speak fluent Turkish and each of them are capable of reading and analyzing the Koran in Arabic. But something tells me the language barrier isn’t the real problem here. You do not have to speak a language if there is a document you do not understand you simply find someone who is fluent in that language and ask them to translate it for you. I have several friends who are fluent in both English and Turkish and they translate for me all the time. The idea that you have to speak the language to understand the debates is just absurd when all you need is a native speaker to translate it for you.

 

[SteveLohr]

Thank you Steve for your effort on post #221. You have shown the Hadith. Perhaps the Muslim Religious heads are reading those hadith too much. That is why all are voting for Death for the apostates. I take it exactly like all the Jews were crying hoarse in the court of Pilate to Crucify Jesus. I hope you understand. Thanks again. My voice may be a lone voice in teh desert.

Planten-
Thank you for your kind words. I sincerely wish you the best on your spiritual journey. If I may be so bold, I would like to leave you with a thought: Your statement “My voice may be a lone voice in the desert” indicates you are rightly troubled by the Hadith. It also indicates that you know that you face a serious uphill battle within Islam in contesting this Hadith, as it well accepted in all major Sunni and Shia schools. Yet it advocates murder. This Hadith doesn’t merely ascribe to some minor philosophical or theological dispute between sects. These Hadiths clearly advocates the murder of people simply for leaving Islam. Why then, are you Muslim? You realize that the Hadith mandate murder, and that such a teaching is considered authoritative within Islam. Yet, your sense of right and wrong rightly rejects such a callous law. Why are you a Muslim? If your sense of justice and morality is greater than that revealed in your scriptures, how can they be authored by God? Shouldn’t God’s sense of morality be greater than that of his creations, and not vice-a-versa?
I sincerely wish you the best on your spiritual journey. I pray that you keep asking these tough questions, and pray that God may grant you aid in your quest.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Dhimmi Tomarin:

First time it was funny ; now looks like you are becoming rude to your fellow Christian unnecessarily .

btw Dhimmis are the protected one under Muslim rulers ; they enjoy many facilities about what many do not know at all.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful



Did Islam Grow By Killing Non-Believers?

Arrows :. Why do you think the article by Rick Mathes entitled: “Allah or Jesus?” is being circulated so widely among ordinary Americans through e-mail?..is it true that the Qur’an actually instructs Muslims to kill non-believers to guarantee them a place in heaven?

Here is “Allah or Jesus?” By Rick Mathes:…

Shahul Hameed :…

God has categorically prohibited forcing anyone to accept Islam, let alone killing! The Qur’an says what means:

*{Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256).

*{Say: “The Truth is from your Lord.” Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]}* (Al-Kahf 18:29).

*{Goodness and evil can never be equal. Repel [evil] with good: then will he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate}* (Fussilat 41:34).

*{Invite [all] to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance}* (An-Nahl 16:125).

From these verses it is clear that anyone who uses force to convert a non-Muslim or harm any human being on that score, breaks the divine command; and such a person is not what a Muslim should be.

  3. What is jihad? Is this a real ongoing endless call for the murder of “unbelievers” (a bit like Bush’s War on Terror), or is it a metaphor describing the need to fight for what you believe in and share your faith with the doubters? Explain.

Jihad simply means “striving,” and any effort can be called a jihad. But in Islamic parlance, it stands for the Muslims’ effort to obey the commands of God in their life, even when the odds are against them. In certain contexts, as mentioned above, where fighting for truth and justice becomes unavoidable, that effort can also be called jihad. But today the word is terribly misinterpreted and misunderstood to mean “holy war.” The concept of a holy war comes from the Christian history of the Crusades. Islam never considers war as holy. Fighting is allowed in Islam only as a last resort, as a necessary evil, not as something holy. The Qur’an says what means:

*{To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid…}* (Al-Hajj 22:39).

I hope the foregoing answers your questions.

And Allah knows best. Thank you and please keep in touch.

Salam.

Useful Links:

Islamic Rules of Combat

When and How to Fight

The Ethics of War in Islam

War Ethics in Islam

Treat Them Kindly… Prisoners of War

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016474

 

[R_not]

First time it was funny ; now looks like you are becoming rude to your fellow Christian unnecessarily .

btw Dhimmis are the protected one under Muslim rulers ; they enjoy many facilities about what many do not know at all.

In one sentence she is saying it is rude to call one a dhimmi and in another she is defending it and trying to tell us how they ‘enjoy’ and are ‘protected’. It is all hogwash.

dhimmitude

And I will quote from this article since muslim woman won’t tell you what dhimmitude really is and for the benefit of muslims who refuse to read what they subject people to in their countries. I can tell you that if we did that to them the wailing would be deafening.

They are not allowed to vote, or have any rights under dhimmitude.

…free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur’an’s command that they “feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the legal superstructure that global jihadists are laboring to restore everywhere in the Islamic world, and wish ultimately to impose on the entire human race.

If dhimmis complained about their inferior status, institutionalized humiliation, or poverty, their masters voided their contract and regarded them as enemies of Islam, fair game as objects of violence. Consequently, dhimmis were generally cowed into silence and worse. It was almost unheard-of to find dhimmis speaking out against their oppressors; to do so would have been suicide. For centuries dhimmi communities in the Islamic world learned to live in peace with their Muslim overlords by acquiescing to their subservience. Some even actively identified with the dominant class, and became strenuous advocates for it.

If a muslim does something to a dhimmi - woman, child or whomever - a dhimmi cannot do anything back. There is no law to protect them from torture, death, harassment, etc. nothing.

But in this era of global terrorism it must be said: this silence, this distortion, has become deadly. Before 9/11 it was easy to ignore and whitewash dhimmitude, but the atrocities changed the situation forever. In jihads throughout history, untold millions have died. Tens of millions have been uprooted from their homes. Tens of millions have been stripped of their cultural identity. To continue to gloss over the destruction wrought by jihad ideology and its attendant evil of dhimmitude is today to play into the hands of jihadists, who have repeatedly vowed to dhimmify the West and destroy any recalcitrant elements. While jihadist groups, even with their global diffusion, are not strong enough to realize this goal by themselves, they have a potent and destructive ally, a genuine fifth column, in the dhimmi academics and dhimmi journalists they have recruited in the West. They have succeeded in confusing millions in the West into mistaking honesty and truthfulness for bigotry, and self-defense for oppression.

Before it’s too late for Western Europe and the United States, which gave birth to the traditions of freedom and equality of rights for all that shine today as lights in the entire world, this must be stopped. Therefore Dhimmi Watch seeks to bring public attention to:

The plight of the dhimmis, an immense but almost completely ignored ongoing scandal that continues in Muslim countries today;
The plight of women under Sharia provisions, similar to conditions imposed on dhimmis, in the denial of equal rights and dignity;
Slavery in Islamic lands, which continues today, justified by Sharia-'s dhimmi codes;
The integral role of jihad and dhimmitude ideology in global terrorism today;
The license that academic and journalistic whitewashes of dhimmitude gives to radical jihadist enemies of human rights for all.

Their lands can be stolen, their women and children can be kidnapped/raped/enslaved. Don’t forget they can be killed too. And too often the kidnapping and rape is called ‘marriage’ to muslims. And then they cannot visit their relatives because they are forced to convert and the relatives are unbelievers.

This whitewashing of dhimmitude by any muslim shows the level of uncaring for their fellow human being. And it is not surprising when they divide the world up into believers and unbelievers and dehumanize the unbelievers. And then they want to tell us that they are ‘peaceful’ when in fact they support such a level of inhumanity towards their fellow human being. But there is not a concept for ‘human being’ in islam - it is all believers/unbelievers.

 

[SteveLohr]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Shahul Hameed :…

God has categorically prohibited forcing anyone to accept Islam, let alone killing! The Qur’an says what means:

*{Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256).

*{Say: “The Truth is from your Lord.” Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]}* (Al-Kahf 18:29).

*{Goodness and evil can never be equal. Repel [evil] with good: then will he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate}* (Fussilat 41:34).

*{Invite [all] to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance}* (An-Nahl 16:125).

From these verses it is clear that anyone who uses force to convert a non-Muslim or harm any human being on that score, breaks the divine command; and such a person is not what a Muslim should be.

With all due respect, your citations only tell half the story. While strictly true that there is no compulsion to join Islam, the entire story is that non-believers are given three choices: conversion, inferior status as a dhimmi, or death. In other words, a non-believer can 1) “willingly” convert, or else 2) choose to be humiliated, impoverished and legally treated as a form of lesser humanity as a dhimmi or 3) be killed. See Sahih Muslim 19: 4294 (available here: usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/019.smt.html) As far as the status of dhimmi, see Bat Ye’or’s book “Dhimmitude” for probably the most recent comprehensive study on the status of dhimmi people in Muslim land.

However, there is a fair amount of debate within Islam as to whether these “peaceful” verses even apply. Many scholars claim that these peaceful Meccan verses have been abrogated by the later verses from the Medinan period. (see generally sura 2:106; 16:101). Certainly, this is reasonable, as Mohammed himself is reported as having personally engaged in a bit of forceable conversion. According to Ibn Hisham in “The Biography of Muhammad”(Part 4, Page 11)

Muhammad told him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “I do believe that.” Muhammad then said to him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul.” The ‘Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: “Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword.” Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim.”

Given Islamic history, including that recorded during Mohammed’s life, it appears that in fact unbelievers were given one of three choices: “Freely” convert; suffer significant legal, social, and financial penalties; or death. Given this fairly narrow range of choices, I believe it is fair to call into question the voluntariness of the ensuing conversions.

 

[planten]

Dhimmi Tomarin:

You aren’t merely disagreeing, you are creating a test that is impassable, in order to silence objection. You see, in your analysis, **critics **of Islam need to speak an ‘Islamic language’. How about practicioners? Let’s suppose I was a devout American Muhammadan who spoke only English. Would I be able to understand Islamic doctrines taken from English books? What about you as a ‘Catholic’? Do you read Latin? Latin is, after all, the offical language of the Church. So, if you do not read Latin, you are no longer permitted to speak of the Church.

I read peer reviewed translations from all over the Islamic world. Man, if I have to say that again I am going to have a STROKE!

Using your analysis, I would have to speak ALL OF THOSE LANGUAGES in order to form an informed opinion on apsotacy. Not just one, but all of them.

If I am WRONG the the subject, then PRESENT YOUR SOURCES rather than just dismissing my premise. Are you starting to see clearly?

**Lothair, there is no need to learn every language. Just like we work in the world with our limited knowledge of few languages, we can understand the religion too. The purpose of all religions is to bring mankind close to God. We keep the purpose in mind. Then we get hold of bible or Quran or Torah or Bhagwat Geeta and read them in any translation. Some will be good translations and some will be weak.

With our good intentions in mind that we are to be good and fair to every one. We are to do justice and not be narrow minded. We are to be mindful of our duty to God (Taqwa). With the Grace and Mercy of God, we can slowly discern truth from falsehood and progress in our way towards the ultimate truth.

Jesus said “Do not judge otherwise you will be judged.” A very wise few words of wisdom. But here we see that every one is free to judge the best men of the world (the prophets) and every one is passing judgements. If we refrain then they only we may be able to see the truth and may be the true followers of Jesus. Otherwise we will be in fact under the contempt of Jesus.
**.

 

[planten]

Tomarin - I don’t want to get into a tit-for-tat here between you and Lothair, because these conversations back and forth for this topic are too much for me.

My question to you Tomarin is do you deny the “death penalty” under islam for apostates?

By deny I am asking in your opinion and knowledge if they occur in the middle east?

Thanks!

**jakasaki, there is no question of denying the death penalties in the middle east. They are very much available in the far east too. But the question is, “Is that Islamic?” The reply is “No.” “No thanks.” And mind the bigots too and their home made brutal laws.

There was no need to call Tomarin a Dhimmi. There is no more Dhimmii. People use too many Hadith. I also want to quote one Hadith here which states that there will be no more wars with weapons (Jihad with sword) for the sake of religion and there will be no more Dhimmis. So please forget about Dhimmah. It is only in the books now.
**

 

[planten]

Yup, they want the UN to pass laws that would become illigal to critisize islam.

Yet you hear of NO other religion putting this demand to the UN or other civilized governments.

But, jakasaki, England has a law which forbids any one criticising (abusing) Jesus only. That law protects Jesus only against blasphemy. Why is that?

 

[planten]

Planten-
Thank you for your kind words. I sincerely wish you the best on your spiritual journey. If I may be so bold, I would like to leave you with a thought: Your statement “My voice may be a lone voice in the desert” indicates you are rightly troubled by the Hadith. It also indicates that you know that you face a serious uphill battle within Islam in contesting this Hadith, as it well accepted in all major Sunni and Shia schools. Yet it advocates murder. This Hadith doesn’t merely ascribe to some minor philosophical or theological dispute between sects. These Hadiths clearly advocates the murder of people simply for leaving Islam. Why then, are you Muslim? You realize that the Hadith mandate murder, and that such a teaching is considered authoritative within Islam. Yet, your sense of right and wrong rightly rejects such a callous law. Why are you a Muslim? If your sense of justice and morality is greater than that revealed in your scriptures, how can they be authored by God? Shouldn’t God’s sense of morality be greater than that of his creations, and not vice-a-versa?

I sincerely wish you the best on your spiritual journey.  I pray that you keep asking these tough questions, and pray that God may grant you aid in your quest.

SteveLohr, thanks for your appreciation. I am still a muslim because I do not believe in any false man made matters ( writings, books). The Quran is the word of God. Hadith is not. Thanks for your prayers and good wishes/ advice. I send (the same) your prayers (good words) back to you.

 

[dzheremi]

But, jakasaki, England has a law which forbids any one criticising (abusing) Jesus only. That law protects Jesus only against blasphemy. Why is that?

No they don’t. Those laws were abolished in 2008, and even before then they were rarely used. The last successful persecution under England’s anti-blasphemy law happened in 1977, and it was against a homosexual-themed newspaper which published a blasphemous poem, not against some non-Christian religious group for disagreeing with Christianity. (source)

 

[Aydan]

**jakasaki, there is no question of denying the death penalties in the middle east. They are very much available in the far east too. But the question is, “Is that Islamic?” The reply is “No.” “No thanks.” And mind the bigots too and their home made brutal laws.

There was no need to call Tomarin a Dhimmi. There is no more Dhimmii. People use too many Hadith. I also want to quote one Hadith here which states that there will be no more wars with weapons (Jihad with sword) for the sake of religion and there will be no more Dhimmis. So please forget about Dhimmah. It is only in the books now.
**

that’s not true if it were true Turkish Christians would not be severely persecuted by Muslims and Turkish government would allow them to practice their faith and open new churches but they don’t instead they persecute any Turk who objects to Islam or Mohammed so Christians are indeed still treated like second-class citizens even in Turkey and of course that is also the case in many other Muslim countries. I would say the Dhimmi is not just of the books but is still regularly practiced in many Muslim countries.