Questions from an Ex-Catholic

  • Thread starter Thread starter free_thinker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

free_thinker

Guest
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
  2. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
  3. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
 
free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
  2. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
  3. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
Click to expand...
  1. Hell is one of the fundamental definitions of the Bible, as it is the opposite of Salvation.
  2. It’s the Holy Bible, thus, it must be free of errors (concept of faith in practice).
  3. That is the magic of faith 😉
 
Welcome to CAF 🙂

Choice and consequence.

Regarding hell.
Yes God is merciful.
Part of his love is in giving us free will.
In our lives our choices have consequences.
How this relates to hell can first be understood by the words of Jesus himself, in Matthew 25, verses 31-46 .
He is judge of souls and yet what He makes plain is that the choice was made by ourselves, that we place the judgement upon ourselves.

Matthew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

God is love Himself, and in rejecting love we are rejecting Him but we are also rejecting who we are meant to be, persons who share eternally in God’s love.

Rejecting that love by living in selfishness and unlove we have rejected our true selves, our destiny of loving beings lived eternally in God’s loving presence.

To be without love on earth is bad enough. To have lived in a way that has rejected love without repentance to the end, even the last instance where the choice for love is still possible…we have condemned ourselves to exist without love, which is hell for creature meant to live in light and love. We have turned our back on love so the lack of it becomes our destiny…which is hell.
 
I don’t post here very often, heck this is the first time I signed in for over a few years, but I want to try to answer some of your concerns.

First off, I think you bring up a good point in your first thing, but I fear this is a common misperception people often have. The Church has always taught that we do not know who is in hell, and it does not attempt to make such a claim. Often a lot of people try to say (and Christian’s often get a bad reputation for this), do XYZ or you will go to hell, when ultimately we do not know this for fact, precisely because of God’s infinite mercy. What we do know is that God loves us unconditionally, and would go to infinite measures to ensure we have every opportunity to enjoy that love (even sending His own Son to die on a cross for love of us). That being said, God is a lover, not a rapist, He won’t force you to love Him. He is there, pouring out His love to each and everyone of us, but one needs to respond to that love. When someone chooses to reject that love they display that they have no desire for God and are thus leading themselves to Hell (remember, Hell is a place completely void of God’s love, complete seperation from Him). A person who goes to Hell does not just end up there, they end up in Hell because they have chosen, time and time again that they do not want God’s love. Again, God isn’t going to force Himself onto them.

In my own reflection on this, I imagine it is VERY difficult to go to Hell, you have to choose to cut yourself off from God. And if God is infinitely merciful and unconditionally loves then He is not going to just let someone go there because they messed up while trying to seek after Him, or if they never had a chance to know Him fully. Not saying it is ok to go live a sinful lifestyle just because you know He is merciful, because then that is presuming on His love, which is a gross abuse of what love is meant to be. I guess my point is when seeking after Him to trust in his infinite mercy before all else, because ultimately that is going to merit more then any action I could do on earth. I’m honestly not sure how more you can love a person then to completely trust in them.
For your second point, I guess it comes down to believing that it is the Word of God. Surely if the bible is His word, then God would not let anything come to it which was not in His plan. He is perfect, and He can perfect our imperfections, even though it is written by humans, the human is merely an instrument to make His Word known. So I guess, to answer your question here, it is because of faith and trusting in God that we believe it is free from error.
For your last point, arguably I would say that because there are so many religions, it validates the idea that there must ultimately be some eternal “truth”. Why would so many people seek after a “truth” if there was none, how could an idea of “truth” even be posited unless there actually is “truth”. Anselm writes that because of the fact we can even conceive of the idea of God, there must be a God, because else how could we think of a thing which does not exist?

In terms of who is right and who is wrong, ultimately we need to be open to seeing God’s working in the world. It is a fact (although some will try to say otherwise) that there was a man in the Roman Empire, around 30 AD, who went by the name Jesus, teaching, healing, and who was crucified. That is a fact of history. I also believe that the miracles we see in the world are God working, and that He uses those to call those who need to see in order to believe. From this I would have to say that surely God is going to perform these things in His Church.

As for the question of is there even right or wrong, I would again say yes, as all societies have had some standard of basis for right and wrong (even if they conflict with one another). How can societies across all of history have this idea, unless there was some type of standard which exists beyond time.

I pray that this helps answer your questions. I apologize if some of it is not worded the best, I do not do this very frequently.
 
You do not know what the Church teaches about other faiths…and there is truth, one truth. It’s just that we don’t all possess the fullness of truth

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Code: 
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

**If you read on in the link to the Catechism, you will see how charitably the Church regards non-Catholic Christians, the Jews, Muslims and other faiths, and unbelievers.

I hope this will help you to understand that while there are some faiths that condemn other religions, the Catholic Church sees them in relation to a single truth of a loving God.**
 
Regarding the Bible. The Church takes account of the different culture, of the translations and so on. The Church is aware that not all is literal truth and yet the message is inspired by the Holy Spirit. I know this but you will of course need sources…so I’ll work on that now.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Sacred Scripture

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

An excerpt…you may wish to read further

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

"109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 I**n order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. **"For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

This does not yet answer all your questions…and I wish I could recall where in the last few days I read a scholarly assurance that the meaning of the translations hasn’t actually changed even if the language and words have variations. It is not enough for me to say so, therefor I must try to recall where I found this reference.

I respect that you have not simply gone along your way without any attempt to research further to discover if there is any truth in the faith in which you were raised.
God bless you for your willingness to seek answers.
Warmly,
Trishie
 
“In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.”

(Vatican II, Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation), 11)

This link may be helpful:

“The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church”

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_Interp-FullText.htm
 
I note that you were content with your faith until you were exposed to the secular world on a daily basis. Competing ideas that were based in physical things, observable things, sensual things. All to the detriment of the spiritual. You might very well benefit from a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. It clearly and logically explains the tenets of the faith, and the reasons behind those beliefs. It is a primer, and not an in-depth treatise on the faith, but has more than enough substance so that you may refer to it for some time to come. As you have discovered, there is something unsettling about a misdirected spirit. I think that each of us has had that experience to some degree. As well, if you have had a traditional problem with organized religion, realize that the alternative is disorganized religion.
 
free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
  2. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
  3. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
Click to expand...
I am not interested in debate but I would recommend three things. Read the New Testament at least. Also, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that will answer all your questions, but not necessarily in the way you wish. Finally, read the Sinner’s Guide by Venerable Louis of Granada. I will say that your case is not unusual. 👍
 
IF you believe in God, the creator of the universe, then you believe in:

A being “smart” and “powerful” enough to create the entire universe…and yet not “smart” and “powerful” enough to create it free from pain, suffering, unfairness, stinging insects, AIDS, feline meningitis and the clap.

Yet, people who believe in a non-Christian God call this being “pure love”.

Odd.

The Christian faith says very clearly that evil is contrary to God, it exists, and He allows it but did not create it. Hell falls into this category as does the aforementioned stinging insects.

Faced with this dilemma, I go for #2.
It’s funny that the one book modern spiritual types won’t follow is the one most rigorously studied and fact-checked in the whole world.

We know these things happened in history (We know the Israelites came into Canaan form somehwere, we know that someone was the first king of Israel, someone built the first temple, someone was crucified by Pilate, and someone sent the Apostles out. We can easily verify these things happened, we live in the world of their consequences. If someone wants to stand or fall on whether the animals entered the ark two by two, well, nobody cares, at least not around here.
Nope. Not really at all. Try to find the higher power in the Eastern religions. Go on, I dare you. Now we’re down to paganism or monotheism. I know the Sun is not a God, but rather a creation of God, so I’m firmly in the monotheistic camp as practiced since Abraham. That leaves us Judaism, and Chistianity (I’m not interested in heretical offshoots of either religion, like Islam).
 
free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
  2. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
  3. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
Click to expand...
  1. God is Love that is why He lets people choose to accept him or reject him.
  2. The Bible is the most historically correct book known, The word of God never contradicts itself, it is about Love, Joy, Wisdom and everything relevant to the needs of every human person, etc…, etc…
  3. …
hope this helps
Shalom
God Bless
 
free_thinker said:
One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. …I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone… A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
Click to expand...
Why would a truly unconditional God who loves you, force himself on you? Why does it make sense to you that he would he impose his desire on you, against your will?
Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
Click to expand...
We don’t believe that every word in the Bible is free from error (e.g., all of the items presented as historical facts), for precisely the reason you give – humans had a hand in its development, and therefore, humans may have introduced these kinds of errors. However, the Church does assert that the Bible is inerrent: what it means by this is that the Bible accurately transmits God’s message of self-revelation without error. What God intended the Bible to “do”, it does. Why would we expect that if God chose the Bible as a means of expressing his Word, that it would fail to do so accurately?
How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”?
Click to expand...
Each year, the NFL season starts, and fans of 32 teams claim their team will win the Super Bowl. How does the existence of 31 opinions that will later be proven “wrong” invalidate the ‘truth’ of the victory of the (eventual) Super Bowl champion?
 
Okay, I’ll give them a shot. Here is how I make it work.
Hello Everyone!
Click to expand...
Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
Click to expand...
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, God loves us unconditionally, and given that Jesus forgave the unrepentant crowd before the cross, the God I know forgives unconditionally also. After all, forgiveness is an act of love. But we do indeed create our own Hell, right here on Earth. When we hang onto resentment, hatred, or bitterness, there is one kind of Hell. When we are addicted to drugs, uncontrolled in our sexuality, caught up in the slavery of materialism, and other such natural compulsions, then we are living in our own Hell; we are not living in the “kingdom”, anyway. We are disconnected from wholeness or (holiness). It is not that God is disconnected from us. He is always there, and holds us in the palm of His hand. It is that we are disconnected from realizing our being One within, and without.

Hell as a place of eternal punishment does not make sense to me now, but it made a lot of sense when I was younger. So I don’t look at Hell vs. No Hell as a true/false thing, I look at it as “what works for me now.” The idea of an unconditionally loving God conflicts with the idea of an eternal Hell. The idea that a person would knowingly choose Hell, when they fully understand the alternatives, conflicts with human nature.
  1. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from a.ncient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
Click to expand...
I used to go to a Bible study led by a local priest. He said, “you can take the Bible literally, unless you find something that appears to contradict.” I look at the Bible, especially the Old Testament, as a story of a people’s relationship with God as best as they could know Him.

I look at the story of Adam and Eve as an explanation of how creation happened. The Catholic Church does not hold to a literal interpretation of the creation story; it allows for science. Remember, Darwin and Lemaitre came up with theories that did not conflict with their faith.

continued…
 
  1. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
Click to expand...
I start from this point: God created us. God created us with feeling, compulsions, drives, needs. We have an innate need, for example, for territory. Our territory can include our material stuff and even our mates. We get defensive when our territory is violated. This is all very natural. We are all going to resent having our territory violated by theft. We all come to see theft as wrong. So yes, there is a right and a wrong, and ultimately it comes from God. I look at what we all agree is “right” and “wrong”, and then where we disagree, well, one of us is ignorant. But God forgives our ignorance too, right?

I don’t judge other religions. Have you read Life of Pi? Movie coming out soon. Incredible book. All the religions I know of emphasize forgiveness. Forgiveness creates the Kingdom.
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
Click to expand...
Yes, so I have obviously questioned some of these things, but I don’t see orthodoxy as “wrong” by any means. I teach orthodoxy. It has its place in all of our lives. You have come to a time in your spiritual journey where you are having to sort things out. Stay with the Church, or come back if you have left. You seem to have a pure love and faith, and the Church needs people like you. I stay, because “If you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem.”

For more answers, and I am sure you will get more here, see the CCC. If some of the answers don’t make sense, check Fr. Richard Rohr’s work, I like the way he clarifies some things.
 
free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
Click to expand...
Would you invite people to your wedding or ask them to live in your house if they made it plain to see that they hate you? Think of all the worst degenerates : the likes of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, the likes of Dutroux (Belgian child abductor, pedophile), do you think they should share in God’s glory? Nothing impure, nothing evil can be in God’s presence. If you agree that the worst that humanity has to offer shouldn’t have an eternity of joy and bliss with God, then you begin to accept, partially, the fact that the existence of Hell befits a loving and perfect God.
 
You are entirely right: a truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.

However, if you reject infinite love for eternity, you will be hurting yourself for eternity, just like if you close your eyes because you reject light, you will remain in self-inflicted darkness.

Hell is just that: a state in which the soul rejects God. It’s the soul’s choice. God does not change in his feelings towards us. Which is why He revealed that even the damned will not be annihilated, but they will resurrect in a glorified body, but onto a resurrection of condemnation.
We do not believe it is free of flaw, but yes free of error, because we believe it is inspired by God, the same God who guided all those who translated the books of the Canon, gathered them together, and preserved them until this very day. You say it takes more faith in men than in God, I think the contrary: to accept that despite men’s imperfections and flaws and despite the flow of time and the work of the enemies of Christianity the Bible is preserved intact and pristine requires great faith in God.
Religion is how we relate to the spiritual realm. Some have many divinities, others no divinity, others one God. We know Christianity has the fullness of the divine revelation because the teachings of Christ are far superior in terms of love and charity than anything else, and for a billion reasons more. But ultimately anyone who strives to do things to the best of his conscience without knowing Christ can attain salvation in mysterious ways. But this is not the same as to impugn the known truth.

We all question these things at one time or another. I myself had gone rather far away from the Church for a rather long time. It took one confession to change my life forever and for better, in ways that I myself cannot understand. I know we are on the right path by what we do, that is, by how we love and by how we preserve ancient treasures in a world that ignores the presence of evil and of creatures of darkness who, along with men, try to destroy mankind by undermining morals, values, society as a whole, redefining concepts in ways that cast scorn upon what is good and praise upon what is evil.

The Church stands as a pillar of light, as a library open to all, on which pristine knowledge can be sought and found, never imposed on anyone…on which we learn of a God who understood our weakness and who, rather than snapping His fingers and undoing Creation, decided instead to take flesh and look like us, and then to take upon himself our burdens and sufferings, to suffer for our sake, to forgive, to give hope to those who suffer and die for no reason at all, and to give hope to those who do evil, knowing that He is the Lord of infinite mercy, always ready to forgive those who repent. We learn about a God who commanded us to love our neighbors, yes, but even our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us. A God who told us: see that guy who is sick, hungry, and lacks clothes? If you help him, you are showing me your love. If you despise and hurt him, it is me you are hurting. A God who says: this world gives you tribulation, but I will turn your mourning into joy. Do not be afraid: I am with you.

All of this I did not have when I was away from the Church. When I started learning more, I realized that the Church is truly incarnate love, and that even if I can only contribute with helping a few people in my life, such works are infinitely valuable when joined to those of over one billion brothers in Christ. I saw myself being transformed into a better human being, one who readily loves unconditionally, that is, with Christ’s love, one who does more and for better reasons, one who actually helps others, one who is still a terrible sinner and a very imperfect soul but who tries and dreams of giving every minute of his life into doing what is good, what would benefit the suffering and the innocent. I do not think anyone can truly have this without the Church. They may have good lives, but not this.
 
free_thinker said:
**A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him. **
Click to expand...
This is why I can rationally understand hell exists. As you pointed out there are people out there that don’t ask for forgiveness don’t believe or outright reject God.

Forcing someone to be in the presence of one who they despise for eternity seems a rather cruel action to take. So an ever merciful and loving God allows those that wish it to chose to be separated from him for eternity.

*“Oh you don’t want to be around me for eternity? Here let me make this place for you to be with all the other souls that don’t want to be with me.” *

seems a lot nicer than

“Oh you don’t want to be around me for eternity? Well to bad there’s only Heaven!”

Just my thoughts on that first point you made
 
QUOTE=free_thinker;10016632]Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power /COLOR]and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
Well…you are correct in that God, indeed, loves His creation. He created paradise for us, and that is our destiny. God wants us to join Him there for eternity. That’s the plan:). Hell, however, is not a concept, it is a reality. And, for some, a very real reality because of the choices humans make when they are on earth. God longs for us, and wants to be in an intimate relationship with us. We reject God. We choose hell. All of the evil in the world is man-made. Read Genesis in the Old Testament. God pronounced His every creation, each and every time, as “Good”. However, God is not going to force humans to choose good over evil. He has given us a free will- to choose whether we want to have a relationship with Him, ask for forgiveness, believe and not reject Him. It is specious to declare that a human can live any way they wish, creating chaos, and because God is a God of infinite love, they won’t be accountable for the manner in which they lived. Realize this- Hell is an absence of relationship-with anyone, not the least with God. Hell is the absence of relationship with anyone, particularly the Lord. Hell is real, and needs to be preached about more, not less.

"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.
All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…"
—excerpted from The Problem of Pain and The Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis (1898-1963), included in The Quotable Lewis, 1989 Tyndale
 
free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
  2. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
  3. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
I have many many more questions but I think those are enough for now. I have become so far removed from the church that I wouldn’t even know how to answer those from a Catholic standpoint anymore. All I am looking for is honest discussion and I am simply stating my opinion and would like to hear yours. I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
Click to expand...
I am going to try to address your question about the validity of the translations of the Bible in the various languages.

First we should start with the books that make our Old Testament. For the Jews this are encopassed with the 5 books called the Torah and the Talmud.
these were written mostly in Hebrew but some of the most recent books were also written in Aramaic.
Jesus spoke Aramaic and also Hebrew since in the Sinagogue when they read from the Torah it is done in the language it was written. So you see there is NO translation here.

Now around 285-247 B.C. prior to Jesus birth the Torah and Talmud were translated into Greek because the majority of the jews of the time spoke only Greek. 70 or 72 of the most eridite Rabbis of their time accomplished this their effort was called the LXX by the jews and is what we call the Septuagint.
Now it is important to note a couple of things
Modern jews do not accept the Septuagint as valid. This trend started around 200 AD and it was a measure mostly taken to discourage the further migration of jews to the Christian religion.
How can we prove this?
Well St. Paul was a very educated Pharisee and he quotes the Septuagint in his letters.
Also important to recognize that St. Paul spoke Greek and his letters to the Romans and the epistles to the Corinthians for example were originally written in Greek.

Now the very first Catholic Bible which is a compendium of the inspired word of God was written in Latin and is called the “Vulgate” was written by St. Jerome and is a translation of the Torah from Hebrew and the other books that were available in Aramaic into Latin.
Lots of scholars have devoted lots of time to see if they find any discrepancies between the very early books and the more modern ones and we have yet to see any one come up with any.
Which is in itself very remarkable.

More recently these facts came back full circle when the Dead Sea Scroll were discovered and several of the fragments could easily be reconducted to the books of the Old Testament. Proving that indeed the Bible has been kept faithfull throughtout it’s more than 5000 years history.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top