Quran 5:116

[dolphinlove]

Again Pete 29, this is not directed at you. I accept you don’t worship Mary, but there are people before you who worshiped Mary. And the verse could be applied to them. Therefore it is a reasonable question to ask Jesus.

Follow-up question to Dolphin, On who’s authority do the saints intercede on your behalf.

Have they beeen granted the right of intercession to be able to intercede on your behalf, how do you know their intercession is valid. Please provide referenced answers from scripture.

Read here for answer, praying to the Saints
There is also references you asked for.

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

My little question here: did Jesus ever pray in his life? I am certain the answer is in the affirmative.

My submission is the Catholics should pray just like Jesus did and not like Paul, in my opinion.

Did Jesus pray with the statues of Saints alongside him? Yes or no, please

I love Jesus and Marya s I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

No, Jesus didnt pray with statues along side him.
However, the reason why Catholics pray with statues is answered in the link i provided earlier.

 

[paarsurrey]

No, Jesus didnt pray with statues along side him.
However, the reason why Catholics pray with statues is answered in the link i provided earlier.

Hi

Thanks for confirming that Jesus didnt pray with statues along side him.

For your reasoning part:
When Jesus did not accept your reasoning; how could I?

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

Thanks for confirming that Jesus didnt pray with statues along side him.

For your reasoning part:
When Jesus did not accept your reasoning; how could I?

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Did you read the link, obviously not…

Now answer me this, did Allah tell you to pray to a big black rock? Isnt this idiolatry?

 

[Jay53]

** Dear Jay, the Quran is right. It is accusing the christians of praying to Jesus and Mary. Please see the verse 5:116 again which you have posted:

[5:116] **GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother ****idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

Muslim Woman has rightly explained (in brief) to you. But I may also try it. I feel that you have only objection to the prayers to Mary. You do not believe that christians pray to Mary. Am I right?

Other wise, I hope you are agreed to your praying to Jesus. Is that right? You question seems to revolve around the worship of Mary. Is that right?

So at least half the problem is solved. You pray only to Jesus and not to Mary. That is what you feel. and you think that Quran is wrong in attributing any prayers to Mary. Am I right in understanding you? Please tell so that we can proceed with discussion further. thanks.

The issue I have is with the part bolded and underlined above. Allah, all knowing, would already know that Jesus did not tell us to worship Mary as a god and that Christians (or anyone else that I know of) do NOT worship Mary, so this question would be ridiculous. Jesus DID tell us that he is the Son of God so I will proudly say that I listened to Him!

My other issue is with some Muslims thinking Christians worship the Trinity as Father, Jesus and Mary which is obviously incorrect and other Muslims calling Christians polytheists and teaching this. I don’t understand why the intelligent Muslims who understand the concept of the Trinity and what Christians believe don’t educate the ignorant ones. I’ve seen videos of Muslim clerics in mosques (on Youtube) yelling about the polytheists (the one I’m thinking of was also complaining about the Jews and their supporters, so I took him to mean Christians.) and these are the people who are supposed to be knowledgeable teaching falsehoods. ???

 

[pete_29]

Hi

Please don’t be angry; Catholics are supposed to be patient; a good quality indeed.

Though I don’t believe Jesus dictated anything to John revealed on Jesus from God Allah YHWH or he ever dictated to John even from himself, yet I quote here from **John 14:8-20 **for arguments sake for my friends here:

8 Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Unquote

Well , I don’t find anything here where Jesus told his followers that he was God Allah, in my opinion, and that he commanded his followers to worship him and to pray to him.

How could he tell such a thing which he never did himself? He always prayed to God Allah YHWH and told others to pray to God Allah YHWH in hours of need.

Kindly mention clearly and exactly Jesus’ words in a staightforward manner; and not your far-stretched inerpretition for which there are no explicit words there, please.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

How dare you say my interpretation is far stretched when you come on here and spread that garbage of yours that Jesus did not die on the Cross. As for getting angry, I guess you wouldn’t be upset if I told you that.IMO, mohammed was the greatest liar that the world has ever seen. Interesting to note that you waited for me to sign off last night before you responded.

 

[Reuben_J]

Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

Until someone who can answer this in detail I’d fill in with some simplicity.

Your statement above is illogical and no doubt an apologetic work. The Trinity is Christian’s core belief and if the Quran wanted to address this, there should not be any mention of Mary at all. The Trinity had been an integral Christian belief that by the 7th century during Mohammad’s time, he would have no problem in acknowledging this. No Christians worshipped Mary and Mohammad should know that as well.

What Mohammad did was simply stating his misunderstanding of the Trinity. Seeing That Christians venerated Mary he took it to mean as part of the Trinity. He did not know about the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity. Till today Muslims consider the Holy Spirit of the Bible as angel.

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

Obviously a commentary of personalized opinion.

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

Observation is just an observation and therefore is not the truth of the fact and more often than not, misleading and erroneous. Conclusion cannot be made out from an observation. You are merely looking through a glass house without hearing what the occupants actually are saying. Like a foolish voyeur after seeing a couple talking intently went back and reported that they were quarrelling when actually they did not.

Basically there is no prohibition in the Bible in putting statues in places of worship. The prohibition is in worshipping it.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

Because you cannot make a statue of God as you would not know how he looks like. Jesus as a man was seen and touched by his disciples.

The Truth

  **The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.**

Al-Qur’an, 003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Nonsensical conclusion. You have to ask the Catholics what they think about their religion and not what you think.

 

[LutheranDK]

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. … Al-Qur’an, 005.116

The Qur’an says that this is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will say to his Lord on the Day of Judgment… and this of course means that he would not have said it yet during his time in this world.

How would Christians KNOW what Jesus (pbuh) will say on the Day of Judgment if they are not referring to their own scriptures??

Nice try - but you forgot that the real issue is that God supposedly thinks that Jesus told people to worship Mary as a goddess.
That is a problem for islam, because NO Christian has EVER worshipped Mary as a goddess. God, Who is all-knowing, would certainly know this. An illiterate merchant (who never set foot outside the western part of the Arabian peninsula), on the other hand, might very well not know.

The koran is thus exposed as the words and ideas of Muhammed, not of Allah.

I confess that there is no other god than Allah, and that Jesus IS Allah!

 

[LutheranDK]

:banghead: I might as well be talking to a wall.:hypno:

I know that feeling…but, I’m sorry to say, often from debates with Roman-Catholics

 

[KevinAK]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

In Islam , if you/we pray to anyone except God is called shirk/blashphemy. It’s the major sin & if we die without repentance , only punishment is eternal fire.

Christians give much importances on Mother Mary (p) ; they make statue of her for worship purpose , they pray to her.…it’s called worship/ take deity besides God.

If Muslims make statue of Muhammed (p) & pray to him , that will be also considered as the most major sin.

it’s part of our faith to respect Jesus & Mary (peace be upon them). We are not allowed to make statues of them & worship them besides God.

As it was pointed out we DO NOT worship Mary.

Islam worships Allah instead of the one TRUE God. Isn’t this a sin?

 

[Reuben_J]

As it was pointed out we DO NOT worship Mary.

Islam worships Allah instead of the one TRUE God. Isn’t this a sin?

If their interpretation of worship is so strict, I would be more concerned why the needs to kiss the black Kaaba stone.

One would only has to look at CNN and see the vast multitude of Muslims go berserk in kissing the black stone. Maybe Muslims should consider this first before throwing stones at Catholics venerating Mary or placing of statues in churches.

 

[LutheranDK]

If their interpretation of worship is so strict, I would be more concerned why the needs to kiss the black Kaaba stone.

One would only has to look at CNN and see the vast multitude of Muslims go berserk in kissing the black stone. Maybe Muslims should consider this first before throwing stones at Catholics venerating Mary or placing of statues in churches.

 

[pete_29]

I know that feeling…but, I’m sorry to say, often from debates with Roman-Catholics

Nice dig. Did I say something to upset you. If I did I apologize.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks

 

[LutheranDK]

Nice dig. Did I say something to upset you. If I did I apologize.

Not at all! Neither was my comment meant as an insult towards you. It was merely stating the same feeling that I’ve had many times on these forums.

 

[dzheremi]

I think it’s important to remember that even if the Qur’an had gotten the composition of the Trinity right somehow, it would still be wrong in many other ways. It is wrong from the get-go because it claims to correct the word of GOD (by claiming a corruption of God’s incorruptable word). I mean…honestly, folks…can anything be more wrong than that?

Also, the tapdancing of “well, it never says that she is a member of the Trinity! the word Trinity is not used there!” is really silly. As I’ve pointed out in the past, the Bible also does not use the word “Trinity”, but certainly the concept is explicitly outlined there - and in the correct manner! (by Jesus Christ Himself, in Matthew 28:19)

 

[LutheranDK]

I think it’s important to remember that even if the Qur’an had gotten the composition of the Trinity right somehow, it would still be wrong in many other ways. It is wrong from the get-go because it claims to correct the word of GOD (by claiming a corruption of God’s incorruptable word). I mean…honestly, folks…can anything be more wrong than that?

From what I’ve learned, the majority of islamic scholars will not claim that the Gospels have been corrupted, and argue that since they are God’s word, it is inconcievable that He would let men corrupt them. Rather, it is the Christians who misinterpret the Gospels.

The opinion that the Gospels have been falcified is the opinion of only a few islamic scholars, but it is the most prevalent among ordinary muslims…

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think it’s important to remember that even if the Qur’an had gotten the composition of the Trinity right somehow, it would still be wrong in many other ways. It is wrong from the get-go because it claims to correct the word of GOD (by claiming a corruption of God’s incorruptable word). I mean…honestly, folks…can anything be more wrong than that?

Also, the tapdancing of “well, it never says that she is a member of the Trinity! the word Trinity is not used there!” is really silly. As I’ve pointed out in the past, the Bible also does not use the word “Trinity”, but certainly the concept is explicitly outlined there - and in the correct manner! (by Jesus Christ Himself, in Matthew 28:19)

Muslims believe the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God. Words are not selected haphazardly, nor their order. Everything is very precise, and what words are used, which words are not used, and in what order they are placed must all be taken into account.

 

[planten]

Muslims believe the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God. Words are not selected haphazardly, nor their order. Everything is very precise, and what words are used, which words are not used, and in what order they are placed must all be taken into account.

Your reply is 100% correct, sis.

 

[meedo]

What exactly does this verse mean:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

What did Muhammad and/or Allah mean by this? Jesus obviously never said this. Was this Muhammad’s misinterpretation of the Trinity - that Mary was part of it? If so, why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!? Even if this is a jab at the Catholic reverence for Mary, we still don’t and have never put her “beside” God; and Muslims, I thought, had just as much reverence for Mary (although admittedly just as the mother of Jesus, the prophet and not as she is, the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.)

I have answered this question tens of times on this forum. But you are a polite person as far as i have seen .

The concept of worship or ‘‘God’’ in Islam is differen that in Christianity.

In Islam one is worshipping an idol or a false God if he would direct actions to this item or diety that otherwise would be directed to God or leads to the elevation of the satus of this diety or item to a point of divinity or simply , beyound mere creation of God .

example:

1-A muslim **cannot **go to the tomb of the prophet muhammed and ask him to intercede with God to heal his son .

                                 however

2-A muslim can ask Allah to heal his son invoking Gods love for all his prophets and that he ( the man ) is a follower fo those peophets and good men that God loves .

in the first case , you are asking a man who has left life (( thus imposing a character above humanity or abnormality of creation to him)) to interceded with God to heal another person ( somhing that God never stated that he gave power to passwed away people to intercede )

in addition , this case creates a simple third party between man and God , which is not needed. a man can direct his prayer to teh almighty directtly.

in the second case you see that the man didnt direct his asking or request to Muhammed ( although his love for Muhammed and teh following of his path that he detailed to us in his capacity of bieng Gods messenger was part of the invokation that meant to streanthen his prayer to God ) and that he directed his request to Allah , and that in his request he didn’t give any elevation of abnormality or divinity or supernaturality to a mortal man or a creation of God ( which in this case is Muhammed ) he just merely said that God loves muhammed ( and all the peophets)

This when Christians go for mary for intercession or go for Jesus fpr prayer , they are ‘‘worshiping’’ them in islamic understanding . it has nothing to do with the understansding fo teh trinity ( somthing that many Islam bashers love to feel they hold on the Quran)

did i make it clear ?

if you have more questions please don’t hesitate to ask .

best regards,

Meedo