Quran 5:116

[Sister_Amy]

I read her post, and my conclusion is that, as is with most other words used by Muslims, “rights” does not have the same meaning as the Christian meaning. Also, the link she provided in a subsequent post lists “Neighbour’s rights” but as I read between the lines, it means a Muslim’s Muslim “neighbor”. This paragraph describes “neighbors” as those we would call “friends and relatives”. In short, the “rights” listed are more in the nature of social obligations. Plus, the fact remains that Mohammed, their “perfect” example, never treated kafirs the same as he treated Muslims.

She starts off saying, “First of all, everyone has the same rights.” Then she goes on to explain how some have more rights than others: “There are five specific rights which a Muslim has on other Muslims which the rest of mankind does not have…” How can both statement’s be true? The answer is the duality of Muslim thought. As I posted before, Westerners use unitary thought. That is why talking with Muslims is confusing at times.

“…So every human being has certain rights. The rights to their life, to their property, to their dignity for example.”

Then how do Muslims justify suicide murder? I don’t hear any imams denouncing it.

She uses the term “human being”, and at the same time, she admits there is no Islamic belief that man is created in the image and likeness of God. How do you have a concept of “human being” without a concept of their being created in the image and likeness of God? This is what separates human beings from animals. This belief is the source of true equality: that everyone is equally love by God. [This is also where we get the idea that all should be equal before the law.] So there is no the concept of “human being” inside Islam, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever.

I will say that it is refreshing that she admits this. Perhaps she can explain why Allah created man.

I really have no idea what this has to do with the present discussion, and I think my post has been taken out of the context of its proper thread.

The reason that Allah created man is in the Qur’an. You can look it up, the reference is 51:56. And that, incidentally, brings us back to the topic of the thread. I found another verse I want to share, as a response to another post.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The difference, Sister Amy, is that intercession on behalf of Mary before the Lord is still bringing the prayer to God. It is not praying to another so much as it is praying through the Holy Mother.

I was looking up the verse about why God created mankind, and came across something even more interesting… very succinct, it is.

And verily, if you ask them: “Who created the heavens and the earth?” Surely, they will say: “Allah (has created them).” Say: “Tell me then, the things that you invoke besides Allah, if Allah intended some harm for me, could they remove His harm, or if He (Allah) intended some mercy for me, could they withhold His Mercy?” Say : “Sufficient for me is Allah; in Him those who trust (i.e. believers) must put their trust.” 39:38

Love it.

 

[dzheremi]

Let the record show that I pointed sedonaman to that thread and that post in particular because it is there that Sister Amy mentions that a Muslim would NOT say that man is created in the image of God, not to start any sort of secondary argument about other things in that (very long dead) thread. I should have been more clear about that, and I apologize if this derails the thread. That is not my intention.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Let the record show that I pointed sedonaman to that thread and that post in particular because it is there that Sister Amy mentions that a Muslim would NOT say that man is created in the image of God, not to start any sort of secondary argument about other things in that (very long dead) thread. I should have been more clear about that, and I apologize if this derails the thread. That is not my intention.

I see. Thanks for clarifying that.

I stand by that statement, that a Muslim wouldn’t say man is created in the image of God. At least, I have been taught not to say that.

 

[dzheremi]

I was looking up the verse about why God created mankind, and came across something even more interesting… very succinct, it is.

And verily, if you ask them: “Who created the heavens and the earth?” Surely, they will say: “Allah (has created them).” Say: “Tell me then, the things that you invoke besides Allah, if Allah intended some harm for me, could they remove His harm, or if He (Allah) intended some mercy for me, could they withhold His Mercy?” Say : “Sufficient for me is Allah; in Him those who trust (i.e. believers) must put their trust.” 39:38

Love it.

You may love it all you want, it still has very little to do with the point I was making. There is nothing in the action or belief in intercession that indicates a lack of trust in God on the part of those who pray the Rosary or ask for the intercession of any saint. Maybe if we prayed to saints to try to get them to remove God’s judgment of our deeds and thoughts, you might have a point, but no Christian would ever, ever do that. We don’t pit the saints against God in any way, because that’s precisely not the sort of stance a saint could take, even if we wanted them to for our nefarious reasons. What, do you think saints are in heaven trying to reason with or bargain with God? No! Saints are not our bargaining chips.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You may love it all you want, it still has very little to do with the point I was making. There is nothing in the action or belief in intercession that indicates a lack of trust in God on the part of those who pray the Rosary or ask for the intercession of any saint. Maybe if we prayed to saints to try to get them to remove God’s judgment of our deeds and thoughts, you might have a point, but no Christian would ever, ever do that. We don’t pit the saints against God in any way, because that’s precisely not the sort of stance a saint could take, even if we wanted them to for our nefarious reasons. What, do you think saints are in heaven trying to reason with or bargain with God? No! Saints are not our bargaining chips.

Do you have any good reason for praying “through” a saint?

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

Do you have any good reason for praying “through” a saint?

The Saints are holy people who lived holy lives we believe they are special people whos prayers are special so in that way our prayers might be answered. We still pray of course, in some ways it’s no different than going on a prayer forum where you make a prayer request and others pray for you.

To use another example from your perspective, if Mohammed were alive today and someone you knew was sick, would you ask him to pray for this person?

Finally, something to ponder, a group of missionaries were based in Hiroshima in World War 2. I believe they were monks if my memory serves me right. The atomic bomb goes off and destroys everything around them but they survive and I believe the building they were in was somewhat intact. Many years later tests are done on them and they have no ill effect from radiation, doctors are marveled. There explaination was their priority was to pray the Rosary everyday.

I feel like quoting the Koran and the bit about sending signs yet people still not believing. Why would a God let that happen? Why would he help idol worshippers?

 

[dzheremi]

Sister Amy,

While it is written to deal with Protestant (not Muslim) arguments against praying to saints, this article from the Catholic Answers archives puts forth reasons why we may ask for the intercession of the saints.

 

[ralphinal]

Depends on the Qur’an or hadith. No, they are right.

But this isn’t the only time the subject comes up.

So any statue or picture is an idol?

When does the issue of worhsipping Mary come up?

Are Muslims under the impression that Christians worship Mary>?

 

[Steven_John]

I would guess back when this was written many people would have had no where near the intelligence and evolved reasoning we do today.
Much of their society would have shared faith stories, we have all played Chinese whispers.

when i read

The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed a way before him. His mother (Mary) was a Siddiqah i.e. she believed in the Words of Allah and His Books. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded a way (from the truth). Surah 6: 72-75

It is not too hard for me to perceived that some people may have been trying to differentiate their existing belief from the revelation given.

They could have been attributing characteristics to Mary (bbhn) and Jesus (pbwh) that were of their 360 other gods.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,

While it is written to deal with Protestant (not Muslim) arguments against praying to saints, this article from the Catholic Answers archives puts forth reasons why we may ask for the intercession of the saints.

If God is going to grant your prayer, then you don’t need to go through a saint.

If God is not going to grant it, then going through a saint won’t help.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So any statue or picture is an idol?

Quite possibly. I’m sure you know that Muslims are forbidden to make pictures or statues in the first place.

When does the issue of worhsipping Mary come up?

This thread was not started by a Muslim, was it? It seems to me to be like a “straw man” argument, for Catholics to say they don’t worship Mary, that the Qur’an says they do, and then try to prove it means the Qur’an is wrong.

Are Muslims under the impression that Christians worship Mary>?

Some Christians.

 

[ralphinal]

Quite possibly. I’m sure you know that Muslims are forbidden to make pictures or statues in the first place.

I do know that. I am puzzled by why God would give a man artistic abilty then call its use a sin, but that is another topic.

This thread was not started by a Muslim, was it? It seems to me to be like a “straw man” argument, for Catholics to say they don’t worship Mary, that the Qur’an says they do, and then try to prove it means the Qur’an is wrong.

No argument.

Some Christians.

The funny thing about that is that the “Christians” who did were considered heretical by the Church at that time. In that era, heretical Christians were not called Christians, so where does that leave us?

 

[planten]

Some christians have always been praying to Mary. Many christians have always been praying to Jesus too. The matter of praying to Jesus on a large scale is sure. The matter of worshipping Mary is on a limited scale.

 

[swariffin]

Some christians have always been praying to Mary. Many christians have always been praying to Jesus too. The matter of praying to Jesus on a large scale is sure. The matter of worshipping Mary is on a limited scale.

That is your own standard forced to other.To you praying is worshipping. To us, praying means communicating.

 

[dzheremi]

If God is going to grant your prayer, then you don’t need to go through a saint.

If God is not going to grant it, then going through a saint won’t help.

We do not pray through saints in an attempt to influence what God will or will not grant us. That was the whole point of my previous post. We pray through the saints because the supplication of Christians both alive on Earth and existing eternally in heaven (the saints) is pleasing to God.

From the page I linked you to earlier (emphasis added):

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

 

[swariffin]

If God is going to grant your prayer, then you don’t need to go through a saint.

If God is not going to grant it, then going through a saint won’t help.

We don’t believe that the saints has something to do with God’s will. “Through a saint” means that we are all in community of faith (called as church) when we talk about saints. Community of faith means that such community includes those who has died already. Especially, those who died for the faith, must sure already live in eternal happiness in heaven together with God. For sure, those who died in the name of God will never cease to exist even after they die. The RCC believes that we the one who live presently on this world are joining those who already died in the name of God (the saints) and bound in the name of the community of faith called as church.

 

[Steven_John]

For me it is important to remember the Quran says some Christians and Jews of that day were ok.

My personal experience of lots of Muslims (not all) is that all Christians are all wrong.

I have challenged those that do have this perception and have found lots but not all of them have this as a teaching given to them by other men or “cherry picking” the Quran.

We are blessed to read together the words offered in the Quran, those without stone hearts see the words written.

For me it is important to lean from this all people are individuals and not to put them in a box i perceive as being “Christian” “Muslim” etc.

 

[planten]

That is your own standard forced to other.To you praying is worshipping. To us, praying means communicating.

**swariffin, praying to some one is like beseeching and requesting that person to grant something. That is what should be done to God only. We pray to God only and not to any one else. But I can ask some living friend, like the Pope, to pray to God for somethign for me. Then he will also pray to God for the realisation of my wishes.

I do not know what you say in your prayers to Mary. If you tell me the exact words then I could give my comments more clearly about your communications**.

 

[dzheremi]

swariffin, praying to some one is like beseeching and requesting that person to grant something. That is what should be done to God only.

I wondered about this when I read Sister Amy’s posts about how only God can grant us what we request. This seems very strange to me, as I do not only pray to ask God to do things for me. I am not implying that Muslims do only that, but this seems like a strange reason to refuse to pray to saints, since so much prayer is not about “getting what we ask for” or however you want to put it. We pray because He is great, we pray because His holy and perfect sacrifice has redeemed mankind, we pray because we love Him and want to always be in communication with Him…oh, there are so many reasons that don’t involve goals outside of the prayer! Sometimes, prayer itself is the goal. It is an intrinsic good.

I do not know what you say in your prayers to Mary. If you tell me the exact words then I could give my comments more clearly about your communications