Racism, Neo-Nazism, and Catholic Teaching

[PetraG]

My main problem with the term “white privilege” is that none of the expectations that constitute “white privilege” actually are a privilege.

These are lists of expectations that any person just expecting to be treated fairly would have. The original writer didn’t write “I can expect to have an advantage over other applicants who aren’t in my sex and racial group.” She recognized that the reason that a white could be oblivious about these “privileges” is that it isn’t a privilege to go into a hotel and expect to just be able to rent a room or to walk into a store and not be treated as suspicious without having done anything suspicious.

Don’t get me wrong: it is unjust that not everyone can realistically have these expectations. I just think it is wrong to call it a privilege to have them. What is wrong is when the expectations aren’t reasonable expectations for everyone.

There is a reasonable expectation, however, that people of good will who realize that some people are being unfairly denied the expectation that they will be treated fairly will take the trouble to make certain that isn’t happening. You don’t just say, “oh, I don’t believe you, people wouldn’t do that.” No, un-examined bias is something you recognize anyone might have and you try to make sure that natural bias does not translate into rude and unjust treatment of people who ought to be able to expect to be treated the same as everyone else.

 

[abucs]

You are listing non-accidental qualities

My comment was specifying human traits.

Further is it an accident of who is my mother?
Is it an accident of who knows about football?
Is it a accident that someone is Caucasian?
Is it an accident that someone is loud and outgoing?

Whether something is an accident depends on how you are defining accident.

You have yet to explain what is “beneficial” about making knee-jerk judgments about people you don’t even know because of their outward appearance.

First of all describing it as a ‘knee jerk judgement’ is a prejudice on your part.

Secondly, ok I am going to rush to my mother because we have a special bond. The same way I would wish to spend time helping a daughter of mine rather than a daughter of someone else’s down the street. That is entirely normal and this is how society not only is largely organised but works the best. Every child should have their parents care for them in a discriminatory unequal way. That doesn’t mean you would refuse to help the daughter down the street if asked or if you thought you could add value to a bad situation. Again the religion of political correctness advocates that unequal treatment means you want to hurt other people. This is a flat out lie.

Regarding the example of the white guy in the bar. I am much more likely not only to share experiences and culture and outlook with him but being foreigners we are more likely to spend time together and have advice that would be beneficial from our own cultural perspective. We are much more likely to have a positive experience because of our shared experiences.

I am going to reject anyone trying to enforce the idea that it is an immoral act to gravitate towards this guy in the bar before others. Anyone who does is completely out of order.

The Catholic Church is not trying to enforce a “humanly-defined” equality on people. Read the story of the Good Samaritan, if you want a divinely-inspired story about making knee-jerk judgments about people based on race.

Neither did the Apostles reject the complaints of those who contended they were being unfairly treated due to unfair distinctions based on culture (in this case, language):
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." Acts 6:1-4

I think you have the wrong idea. The Christian religion is not the one I disagree with. It is the religion of political correctness which creates false racist concepts such as white privilege. I don’t remember Jesus criticising Roman privilege in His day. I am sure there were plenty of advantages of being Roman.

 

[PetraG]

My comment was specifying human traits.

Further is it an accident of who is my mother?
Is it an accident of who knows about football?
Is it a accident that someone is Caucasian?
Is it an accident that someone is loud and outgoing?

Whether something is an accident or not depends on how you are defining accident.

Yes, the color of skin and the shape of nose you got from your mother and father is a total accident with regards to whether or not someone you don’t even know should think it reasonable to follow you around their store to make sure you won’t steal anything or if they don’t want to allow you to rent an apartment because of that. It is irrelevant.

First of all describing it as a ‘knee jerk judgement’ is a prejudice on your part.

Well, no, if you judge that someone shouldn’t get the same treatment as you do solely because of your skin color, that is a knee-jerk judgment. That’s not a prejudice. It is a principle of decent behavior.

Regarding the example of the white guy in the bar. I am much more likely not only to share experiences and culture and outlook with him but being foreigners we are more likely to spend time together and have advice that would be beneficial from our own cultural perspective. We are much more likely to have a positive experience because of our shared experiences.

Just out of curiosity: if that is the way you feel, why did you bother to go and live in a foreign country?

I am going to reject anyone trying to enforce the idea that it is an immoral act to gravitate towards this guy in the bar before others. Anyone who does is completely out of order.

We are not talking about who you choose as friends (although I hope for your sake that you don’t actually assume right off the bat who is a good prospect for friendship primarily by their ethnic appearance). As I said above, you can choose a bride based on whether or not she likes coconut, let alone what eye color or hair color or skin color you find the most beautiful. Sure, it isn’t racism to prefer accidental things like that any more than it is unfair to prefer blue to green as your favorite color.

We’re talking about accommodating customers the same way, welcoming immigrants the same way, hiring based on the same merit, and so on.

 

[abucs]

Notice that the list is 30 years old. You know what it is like to watch TV and see essentially no Europeans. Now imagine you were in your home country, a place where your family had lived since early in the 1800s. Why would people of good intention feel it was OK to treat you as if you were an outsider?

Now consider that Christians believe that one of the things that will determine fitness for eternal bliss is treatment of strangers! I don’t know where you hide preference for people you know at the expense of people who need to be accepted in that scenario.

Television was developed by white people. Film acting and Hollywood were pioneered by white people (especially Jews). Again this is like the discussion about female voting above. You can be thankful about the pioneering of an important development by a certain group of people or viewing this through the politically correct religion to try and see this as victim politics.

Of course over time in a place like America if people deliberately kept out a certain race then that would be wrong. But to see a lack of black people on tv in an era where tv was pioneered by white people and was quite new and to call that wrong is itself wrong in my opinion.

I see very few white people on local tv here. The people have taken this (and so much more) development from white western civilisation (I think the Russians actually pioneered tv) and use it in their own culture. Great. I am not complaining that there is a lack of white people on local tv.

If say British people came here and invested in local tv and developed acting and interaction with British tv culture then there would be more white people here on tv. I think it is wrong to look for areas of life to get angry over. This is the evil of victim politics.

 

[PetraG]

Television was developed by white people. Acting and Hollywood were pioneered by white people (especially Jews). Again this is like the discussion about female voting above. You can be thankful about the pioneering of an important development by a certain group of people or having then politically correct religion try to see this as victim politics.

Yes, and major league baseball was “pioneered” by white people, too–because blacks weren’t allowed on the teams!!

When the Nat King Cole Show premiered in 1956, some Southern stations refused to broadcast it.
Max Robinson was a black news anchor working in 1959 whose producers decided he was to be hidden behind the station’s logo while reading the news. He was fired after stepping in front of the camera during a nightly broadcast.

Don’t tell me that blacks should be thankful for white “pioneers” who paved the way for them. No, they are right to wonder how many talented performers were kept from ever getting an opportunity to contribute solely because of the color of their skin.

 

[po18guy]

As to racism, yes it exists! It is alive and unwell right here in the US. I have been judged for my color, my occupation and numerous other things. All negatively. I have been told to my face that (the other) “knows” why I was doing something or not doing something.

I was white - my accuser black. As incorrect as this sounds, I got in his face.

“You only said that because I’m white!”

“You said that because I’m white, didn’t you?”

“That makes you a racist!”

“Get away from me! I hate racists and racism!”

He walked away and pondered for 5-10 minutes.

He came back and apologized. I told him that our hearts are the same color. If we break it down further than that, we have a problem. Has he been victimized by racism? Of course! But, evil for evil is no solution. We departed on peaceful terms.

I’m sick of racism!

 

[somecanadian]

Where I get confused is, and I may have misinformation but… if the majority of people in a given country are white… why would it be bad for white people to pioneer all of those things?

Now, in the case of America where black people were forbidden to take part that does become problematic but I often wonder why a country with a majority of one race are bad for having that one race be the majority in entertainment fields.

 

[abucs]

Yes, the color of skin and the shape of nose you got from your mother and father is a total accident with regards to whether or not someone you don’t even know should think it reasonable to follow you around their store to make sure you won’t steal anything or if they don’t want to allow you to rent an apartment because of that. It is irrelevant.

That is your definition. The colour or shape of my nose is not an accident.

 

[abucs]

Well, no, if you judge that someone shouldn’t get the same treatment as you do solely because of your skin color, that is a knee-jerk judgment. That’s not a prejudice. It is a principle of decent behavior.

First of all you picked the one example of race here but you called the 4 examples knee jerk reactions.

I described above why you are wrong to call it a knee jerk reaction and why it was prejudiced on your part.

 

[abucs]

Don’t get me wrong: it is unjust that not everyone can realistically have these expectations. I just think it is wrong to call it a privilege to have them. What is wrong is when the expectations aren’t reasonable expectations for everyone.

You have to always consider the context of each example.

I travel a lot and sometimes tourist areas will have brothels nearby. If people see a single white guy many will treat me in a prejudiced way. I accept the context of that because there are people who fit in with the negative stereotype they have in their heads.

So people will come up to me constantly and ask if I want to buy (well lets just say sex products) which is not only offensive but tiresome. Sometimes (perhaps 3 or 4 times) I have just snapped and really gone off at them but you cannot be angry all the time.

What I find works much better is if I do not have a ‘poor me’ ‘I’m offended’ victim attitude but a friendly and nice attitude it works a lot better.

What I find is that many people who would treat me in a negative way, once they see that is not the case they go out of their way to help me. Really they don’t want to have a negative view of me but there are real reasons based on race and experience why they would have negative attitudes towards me.

You have to look at context rather than a victim status identity politics view.

That is Christianity. Being a person of light and changing perceptions through behaviour, not demanding an enforced equality of action on other people independent of context.

That approach causes a lot of anger. And taken to insane levels by the anti western Left, that anger is completely justified.

 

[PetraG]

You have to always consider the context of each example.

I travel a lot and sometimes tourist areas will have brothels nearby. If people see a single white guy many will treat me in a prejudiced way. I accept the context of that because there are people who fit in with the negative stereotype they have in their heads.

So people will come up to me constantly and ask if I want to buy (well lets just say sex products) which is not only offensive but tiresome. Sometimes (perhaps 3 or 4 times) I have just snapped and really gone off at them but you cannot be angry all the time.

What I find works much better is if I do not have a ‘poor me’ ‘I’m offended’ victim attitude but a friendly and nice attitude it works a lot better.

What I find is that many people who would treat me in a negative way, once they see that is not the case they go out of their way to help me. Really they don’t want to have a negative view of me but there are real reasons based on race why they would have negative attitudes towards me.

You have to look at context rather than a victim status identity politics view.

Oh, believe me, people who face institutional racism learn to be gracious about how they handle it. That doesn’t make the racism itself OK.

Our bishops have told us that working for equality is part of the work of a Christian. That doesn’t mean they have removed “bearing wrongs patiently” as a spiritual work of mercy. It means that no one ought to feel free to treat others badly or to tolerate institutionalized injustice on the theory that good Christians will be willing to bear the wrongs patiently!!

First of all you picked the one example of race here but you called the 4 examples knee jerk reactions.

I described above why you are wrong to call it a knee jerk reaction and why it was prejudiced on your part.

I have also said that you are free to choose your friends. I’m not sure what your problem is.

 

[KMC]

How does the “you would get more opportunities if you just worked harder” theory deal with evidence like that?

I didn’t say that. Certainly there are issues black people have that I don’t, and yes they are contributing factors, however, are you saying “white privilege” is the major factor why some black people are where they are at in life? 70% of black children are born out of wedlock…that’s a decision I have no impact on, and one that will impact a life more than “white privilege” does. This is not a binary topic…please don’t paint me into a corner. We have common ground…don’t look for a fight.

 

[KMC]

KMC:

I view it from a different perspective. My wife is a naturalized citizen from the Philippines. Her father followed the rules, and in doing so was separated from his children for a few years.

Saying “get in line” to people that there is no intention of letting in - and spewing moral outrage toward poor Latinos at the border while staying zip-lipped about visa overstays among the affluent - is indicative of a deeply seated cultural problem with racism. And telling people to “get in line” doesn’t refute the racist aspect of these policies.

If we want to delve any further into immigration policy, we should move to one of the many threads already dealing with this issue.

I presented a different perspective about immigration policy. Some of the cries of racism might be ascribed to people wanting a fair process…which is not racist. My example mentioned people from the Philippines, many of whom look like Hispanic people. I won’t deny that there are racists chiming in, but not all challenges to some of the solutions are due to racism.

 

[abucs]

Don’t tell me that blacks should be thankful for white “pioneers” who paved the way for them. No, they are right to wonder how many talented performers were kept from ever getting an opportunity to contribute solely because of the color of their skin.

again you have made this emotional. No one is telling someone else to be thankful. It is people’s choice to decide whether or not they are thankful.

I grew up in an Irish family during the Troubles and was very anti English. I can tell you much bad history regarding England and Ireland. If you like this was my first introduction of victim politics although I didn’t realise the horror of it at the time. It was my culture to look for the bad in a dominating culture and see the wrong in that.

I was wrong. I would suggest other groups who were brought up in similar circumstances to see the worst in another group of people are also wrong. Having lived it no one can tell me it is a good thing to be ensconsed in victim politics and see the world in a narrow self serving way.

Yes, I can tell you lots of bad things SOME Britisn people have done to the Irish. But if I extend that to all British people and want to see British culture as evil, it is me that is accepting evil into my heart.

Yes, we have a choice to be thankful.

I thank the British for Shakespeare, for parliamentary democracy, for stopping slavery worldwide, for their part in developing capitalism, for the industrial revolution and all manner of inventions to make the world a better place like the steam engine which facilitated travel and the electricity grid.

Yes, we each have a choice on whether to be thankful or angry.

My experience is that being thankful, giving people the benefit of the doubt and praising others culture (where appropriate) is always the better choice.

 

[abucs]

Our bishops have told us that working for equality is part of the work of a Christian. That doesn’t mean they have removed “bearing wrongs patiently” as a spiritual work of mercy. It means that no one ought to feel free to treat others badly or to tolerate institutionalized injustice on the theory that good Christians will be willing to bear the wrongs patiently!!
….
Oh, believe me, people who face institutional racism learn to be gracious about how they handle it. That doesn’t make the racism itself OK.

I don’t have to believe you, I’ve experienced racism.

No one is saying racism is ok. This is the second time I have had to say this.

What is wrong is trying to see racism in the world without context in a politically correct framework. Especially the politically correct notion of institutional racism to attack western culture.

There is a difference between racism and racism as seen by people of the politically correct religion educated in victim politics.

 

[abucs]

I have also said that you are free to choose your friends. I’m not sure what your problem is.

what problem is that?

 

[abucs]

I agree with this, context is very important. The context of “western culture” is slavery and brutal colonialism.

Thank you. You don’t mean to but you make my point regarding narrow minded viewpoints on western culture very well.

Thanks again.

 

[somecanadian]

People seem to forget that same western culture fought slavery but… okay. Let’s just say all westerners are evil and corrupt while simultaneously saying it’s wrong to judge an entire people based on their skin colour, or their place of birth. That rule apparently only applies to non-whites.

 

[abucs]

Racism. bigotry and sexism are the greatest evils of the white Christian patriarchy!

 

[PetraG]

Racism. bigotry and sexism are the greatest evils of the white Christian patriarchy!

Do you have some reason to be flippant about this?