Radical Environmentalism: Now Global Warming Causes Prostitution?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Which dataset are you basing this on?

NOAA, HadCRU, GISS and Berkeley all show that 2000-2010 decade was between 0.6 and 0.9 deg. C above 1950 - 1980 mean and the previous decade was about 0.2C lower. See fig. 1in this paper: berkeleyearth.org/pdf/berkeley-earth-decadal-variations.pdf
Why would anyone use them?

Would you trust your bank to make undocumented adjustments - missing data - and hidden processing - to your account?

You make it sound like NOAA - GISS - HadCRU are independent of each other. AND BEST is a compilation of ALL those sets.

Let’s use sets we do know more about:)



 
The notion that solar activity is constant is false.

For example:

In a 2009 paper in EOS Transactions Livingston and Penn showed a direct correlation between the infrared strength and the size of sunspots and magnetic field strength of the sunspots. I’m not quite sure how the geomagnetic index relates to the magnetic strength of the sunspots.

Geomagnetic has dropped to a new low. I don’t know what the significance of that is.

I don’t have a link, unfortunately.

There was also another recent discovery that undersea volcanic eruptions are hugely significant. Much larger than previously guessed at. Of course, there are many more undersea volcanic “items” than above the surface … as well as “strip volcanic things” … No link for that one either.

I don’t memorize the links. But you could find them by some persistent googling.
Hiyas 🙂

We are seeing Mr Soon being exonerated after hmmmmmmmmmm…attacks

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1124&pictureid=7716
 
Except that the last decade has had cooler average temps.
Than what? They all seem to be higher than the average over many decades back to 1880. If the warming (and relative coolings) in these past 130 years had been only due to solar cycles, and not GHGs, then you’d expect to see a horizontal sine wave curve, rather than one tilting upwards. You’d expect the temps of these last 15 years (while we have been in a solar minimum) to have fallen below the average for the first 70 years of the dataset; they do not even fall below the average for the entire dataset. From what I have read the last decade has either had no significant warming, or only slight significant warming, when cooling would be expected without the GHG warming. There has not been signficant cooling; tho even if there had (relative to the warming of the previous 20 years), that cooling has not put it below the average of the entire dataset (which one would expect if only solar activity were impacting the climate). See:

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/en...-records/HADCRUT3_1880-2009.png/image_preview
I always found this claim funny. So all the CO2 that volcanoes spew into the air causes cooling, bit the CO2 we put into the air causes warming…
Volcanoes do spew out more than just CO2 (sulfuric acid, particles, etc), and it is those aerosols (which don’t stay in the atmosphere very long) that cause cooling. However, part of the CO2 I think would stay in the atmosphere, but it would be a lot less, by comparison, to the CO2 humans are emitting.

OTOH, scientists think the end-Permian warming (which caused 90%+ of life to die out) may have been triggered over many thousands of years by the volcanic activity of the Siberian traps – see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Traps . A good book on this is: Benton M J (2005). When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of All Time.

So extremely serious volcanic activity over thousands of years (since a portion of CO2 stays in the atmosphere for thousands of years, compounding the warming effect) could lead to great warming. I think that would be a much much slower process, and negative feedbacks, like rock weathering, would slow it down even further. Our problem today, is that we are emitting GHGs magnitudes of order faster than ever before in earth’s history, too fast for long term negative feedbacks to help.
Really, so every natural cycle, or event that could causing warming has been identified studied and ruled out as a cause? Somehow I find that claim to be slightly exaggerated.
Climate scientists are very meticulous on this. It wows me. As I’ve mentioned before scientists strive to avoid the FALSE POSITIVE of making untrue claims, and they are obsessive about what other explanations there could be, making sure they are ruled out before they make a claim.

It is so easy for us in armchairs to dismiss all the work they do, by saying “it doesn’t seem right to me.” I think we should instead appreciate the hard work they do, and at the same time hope and pray they are wrong on climate change. I don’t think anyone wishes life on earth to be drastically harmed or annihilated, or wants to be party to that. I keep hoping for the best (that the scientists are wrong, and the climate will not go out of the hospitable-to-life range), but I’m reducing my GHGs in case things turns out for the worst. I don’t understand what’s wrong about that.

Would you and others here please join in my effort and reduce your own GHGs, at least in ways that would save you money or don’t cost you, and/or would also reduce other problems, as well. That’s all I’d ask.
 
What are your error bars?

“In fact, NASA GISS is on record noting that the ten warmest years are spread throughout the last century and are all statistically tied for warmest year. Because of the margin of error in global indexes, there is no way to determine which of the following years are warmer than the others.

“For the earlier period these are the warmest years in the top ten: 1921, 1931, 1934, 1938, 1939 – 5 all told. For the latter it is: 1990, 1998, 1999, 2006 – which is 4. And then there is the outlier 1953. These all have a temperature index that is statistically the same – and it proves there is not ‘significant’ warming, which blows the AGW theory right out of the water.”
So what you’re saying is you and your friends cannot detect significant warming (yet). ((BTW, the industrial revolution and high GHGs started decades before 1921.))

No problem, I started mitigating climate change back in 1990, well before scientists were able to detect a warming signal – which first happened in 1995 in a couple of studies, and has been better and better established by further studies over the succeeding years, until around 2000 nearly all climate scientists were convinced there had been significant, detectable warming, and by 2005 I think ALL climate scientists were convinced (except for a tiny few, most funded by Exxon & Koch).

See, science is not just a matter of data and evidence; it is also a matter of theory. The GHG theory has been well established for over 100 years and has been used to explain various warming in the past, and also coolings, when there was grossly less CO2 in the atmosphere. It is based on laws of physics. ((This is your cue to trot out that study published in a Hungarian science journal that disproves the GHG effect – I wonder why SCIENCE, PNAS, or NATURE didn’t snap up that earth-shattering study and publish it first.))

And morality is not just a matter of waiting around for 95% confidence that what we are doing is wrong, before we start reducing our wrongful harms.

And common sense is not just a matter of waiting for the medical tests on that lump to get up to 95% confidence that it is cancerous, before having it taken out. Even 70% confidence would do.

And prudence is not just a matter of failing to look before we keep leaping toward the edge of a cliff, but taking a look and deciding to stop short of that cliff (or abyss, as JPII calls it)

So as much as this world’s culture is at odds with science, morality, common sense, and prudence, and as much as you’d like me to stop reducing my efforts at energy/resource efficiency/conservation & alt energy to reduce my GHG and other pollutants, I’m going to continue mitigating climate change. It’s still a free country, tho there are those who are striving to make us to use more fossil fuels than we need to – through artificially low prices (thru subsidies, tax-breaks, and not internalizing externalities) and slick advertising about “the good life” – which is more a life that will lead us to hell, never mind the GHG emissions.
 
The notion that solar activity is constant is false.

For example:

In a 2009 paper in EOS Transactions Livingston and Penn showed a direct correlation between the infrared strength and the size of sunspots and magnetic field strength of the sunspots. I’m not quite sure how the geomagnetic index relates to the magnetic strength of the sunspots.

Geomagnetic has dropped to a new low. I don’t know what the significance of that is.
I think that means that solar (lack of) activity has led to less irradiation, which should mean global cooling (tho that hasn’t happened), and I also read that we might even be going into a deep solar minimum (the recent pattern lasting for about 11 years), which would slow or halt the warming, masking it. See: here and here and here.

However, we all know the sun is actually getting brighter (very very slowly on its way to self-destruction in billions of years), and I’m sure scientists do expect solar activity to increase sometime in the future. If not within a year or so, then, say, in 10 or 20 years or so.

Now what does that meaning in a GHG-enhanced world? It means we will get a terrible double whammy from the GHG-warming piggy-backing on top of the increased solar-irradiation warming. It means it could get REALLY bad, once that happens.

I’m guessing that what it means.
 
Climate scientists are very meticulous on this. It wows me. As I’ve mentioned before scientists strive to avoid the FALSE POSITIVE of making untrue claims, and they are obsessive about what other explanations there could be, making sure they are ruled out before they make a claim.
Explain Mr Mann’s Hockey Stick. 😃

If what you said had a bit of truth concerning AGW - we would NOT have had it in the IPCC.

READ FOR YOURSELF IN THEIR OWN WORDS

You might be able to sell your cause…if you didn’t use such types of statements. There is no one in the world that doesn’t… now know…of the shady acts…shady data keeping.
 
So what you’re saying is you and your friends
The more you write - the more snide your remarks 😦
cannot detect significant warming.
NO…YOU can not produce empirical observational evidence that supports your AGW claims. Nature just keeps kicking the AGW hypothesis in the butt.

I don’t care what YOU or Mr. Mann or Mr Jones at el… THINK - I want supporting observational evidence for other than Natural Causes.
I think ALL climate scientists were convinced (except for a tiny few, most funded by Exxon & Koch).
Does Mr George Soros stop by your house for lunch?

I don’t care if British Petroleum - Shell - ESSO funds CRU.

Your continued claiming such nonsense that George Soros started…MEANS NOTHING 🤷

You would not need this claim - IF YOUR SCIENCE WAS TIGHT. 😃
See, science is not just a matter of data and evidence; it is also a matter of theory. The GHG theory has been well established for over 100 years and has been used to explain various warming in the past, and also coolings, when there was grossly less CO2 in the atmosphere. ** It is based on laws of physics. **
YES! It’s the laws of Natural physics…that keep messing up the AGW hypothesis. The hypothesis was know 100 years ago - BUT GOD LET’S… MOMMA NATURE DO HER OWN.
Don’t you think it’s time to get a partial return? 100 years of hypothesis - and AGW keeps having to move the goal posts - in order to stay alive.
And common sense is not just a matter of waiting for the medical tests on that lump to get up to 95% confidence that it is cancerous, before having it taken out. Even 70% confidence would do.
Produce the evidence! That the tumor in FACT is existent. I don’t go to a Doctors known to have their “thumb on the scale” - Would you go to a Doctor with the KNOWN shady, self admitted, actions that the cadre of AGW - CRU - IPCC has?

Then Maybe again it it’s for the “cause”…
So as much as this world’s culture is at odds with science, morality, common sense, and prudence, and as much as you’d like me to stop reducing my efforts at energy/resource efficiency/conservation & alt energy to reduce my GHG and other pollutants,
So you see me calling for evidence to support an unproven hypothesis as a PERSONAL attack? :rotfl::rotfl:
 
date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:55:15 +010 ???
from: Hans von Storch ???@phys.uu.nl
subject: revision 10.6.
to: ???@egs.uct.ac.za
We should be aware that it is our responsibility to assess the certainty
and uncertainty of information on the regional scale.We should respond to critique concerning incomplete or incorrect analysis of what has been published, also concerning
linguistic readability. But we must not respond positively to requests for
information to be used in impact and policy analysis, which we do not
consider sufficiently robust for this purpose. We should explain why we
don’t think the information robust yet. Climate research has become a
postnormal science, with the intrusion of political demands and significant
influence by activists driven by ideological (well meant) concerns.
On the
other hand, we have to defend the credibility of our science.
ecowho.com/foia.php?file=5286.txt

NOTE THE DATE:

And there is no way it’s out of context. 🙂

ecowho.com/foia.php
 
Than what? They all seem to be higher than the average over many decades back to 1880. If the warming (and relative coolings) in these past 130 years had been only due to solar cycles,
Your mistake is that you seem to think everyone thinks like AGW’ers. Jilly didn’t state warming was all do to solar cycles. She pointed that there is EVERY bit as much correlation between solar cycles and temperature…as there is for CO2 being the main driver. Especially since CERN
Cloud press.web.cern.ch/press/pressreleases/releases2011/PR15.11E.html

MUCH more emphasis has to be given to Sun - Cloud - Water Vapor positive - negative ]. AGW Models do not do well - They are set to try and prove one thing - CO2 as the main driver of Temperature.
then you’d expect to see a horizontal sine wave curve, rather than one tilting upwards.
AHHHHH…but you do see a horizontal sine…when you go with unadjusted data. RSS UAH both show it.
You’d expect the temps of these last 15 years (while we have been in a solar minimum) to have fallen below the average for the first 70 years of the dataset; they do not even fall below the average for the entire dataset.
You keep ignoring the importance of coming out of the Little Ice Age.
Would you and others here please join in my effort and reduce your own GHGs, at least in ways that would save you money or don’t cost you, and/or would also reduce other problems, as well. That’s all I’d ask.
You are very insulting, IMO:(

Why do you automatically think that someone who doesn’t believe the science backs the AGW hypothesis… isn’t a Good Steward?

I think, we’d ALL appreciate you revisiting your ideas and comments on this.
 
SOME MORE NON " FALSE POSITIVES" and IPCC AR5 isn’t even out yet. 🙂
IPCC Scientist Responsible For Bogus Antarctica Warming Study Suppresses His Critics’ Research
IPCC ‘lead author’ Josefino Comiso suppresses peer-reviewed research that completely discredited his previous “Antarctica is warming” study
The paper is the Mr.Eric Steig Of RealClimate ] S09

noconsensus.wordpress.com/2011/12/12/business-as-usual/

c3headlines.com/2011/12/ipcc-scientist-responsible-for-bogus-antarctica-warming-study-suppresses-his-critics-research.html

climateaudit.org/2011/12/13/ar5-loves-steig-et-al-2009/
 
What to say to those who claim USA is so small an area that it can’t be used for the global climate. This claim is needed if one wants to ignore the Dust Bowl, a decade of plummeting temperatures, and the total lack of long-term warming in the uncorrupted version of the USHCN database.

First get the data:

remss.com/data/msu/monthly_time_series/RSS_Monthly_MSU_AMSU_Channel_TLT_Anomalies_Land_and_Ocean_v03_3.txt

Then show the proof:

http://www.real-science.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ScreenHunter_22-Jan.-01-11.12.gif

The bad news for AGW’ers… is that the satellite record shows identical trends for the US and the rest of the planet.
 
Why do you automatically think that someone who doesn’t believe the science backs the AGW hypothesis… isn’t a Good Steward?
Because I did a study, and Catholics who are AGW skeptics – many of claiming to be good creation stewards – are not good stewards. Those seem to be hollow words they bandy about.
 
Because I did a study, and Catholics who are AGW skeptics – many of claiming to be good creation stewards – are not good stewards. Those seem to be hollow words they bandy about.
I’m sorry, but based on some of your comments…I’d have to wonder if your study wasn’t biased…toward YOUR definition of a Good Steward. After all…you seem to think, that anyone who doesn’t believe in an unproven hypothesis, is committing some sort of sin. 🤷

BUT to use your study to assume…

Assumptions are dangerous in debates.
 
Because I did a study, and Catholics who are AGW skeptics – many of claiming to be good creation stewards – are not good stewards. Those seem to be hollow words they bandy about.
???

oh really? And what is your definition of good steward? Does it include killing migratory birds, raptors, and bats of local habitats in order to avoid an unproven harm that CO2 does to the atmosphere?

So people who have always recycled, composted (oh wait does that put CO2 into the air and is therefore a big no no right?), saved water, turned off lights and electricity, are not good stewards.

But people who promote plowing up trees so they can make biofuel, and then using genetically engineered crops and heavy pesticides so they can have high yields, (which get into the water supply and poison it), then use more water in the production of the ethanol than it produces in ethanol, or putting up giant windmills, which take tons of energy to produce and maintain, kill birds and bats, and then are left up to rust when they are no longer profitable, they are the models of good stewards?

(I will never understand the concept of the electric car. As long as our electricity is being produced by (coal, oil, nuclear, natural gas) is it really any better to be producing the CO2 emissions (or other pollutants) at the energy plants than with your car?)
 
???

oh really? And what is your definition of good steward? Does it include killing migratory birds, raptors, and bats of local habitats in order to avoid an unproven harm that CO2 does to the atmosphere?

So people who have always recycled, composted (oh wait does that put CO2 into the air and is therefore a big no no right?), saved water, turned off lights and electricity, are not good stewards.
A lot more people, animals, and plants are harmed and killed through coal-powered and petrol-powered electricity – through local and regional pollution, coal mining hazards, global warming (which will be going on killing), coal ash spills, oil spills, etc. I’m thinking it might be easier to find solutions to wind-generator bird/bat harm, than to all these other harms. For one thing I read that some detector system had been invented that would shut down the wind generators when it detected birds flying toward it; not sure if that’s being used, or if it’s working, but it seems they are looking for solution.

Many perhaps even most bird species are expected to go extinct with our other environmental assaults, including global warming – that extinction process is already underway at a rate higher than any known in history.
But people who promote plowing up trees so they can make biofuel, and then using genetically engineered crops and heavy pesticides so they can have high yields, (which get into the water supply and poison it), then use more water in the production of the ethanol than it produces in ethanol, …they are the models of good stewards?
Of course not; they are not environmentalists, either, not in any sense I would have. ALL the environmentalists I know are against all of those things, many are actively fighting against them. We call GMOs “Frankenfoods.” They are also responsible for farmer suicides in India.
I will never understand the concept of the electric car. As long as our electricity is being produced by (coal, oil, nuclear, natural gas) is it really any better to be producing the CO2 emissions (or other pollutants) at the energy plants than with your car?)
Even if an EV is powered with coal-burning electricity, the amount of emissions is about 2/3 of a regular car, and it is easier to control the pollution at the power plant. However, my wish is to eventually purchase one that we can drive on our 100% wind-generated electricity. However, since we only drive about 3,000 - 4,000 miles a year, that is not at all economically practical, and I haven’t been able to convince my husband yet…even though we have the money, since we’ve been saving $1000s from our other GW-mitigation measures over the past 21 years, and we live very frugally and prudently.

BTW, the study was not biased, but done by a survey company on a random selection over over 2000 Americans. It was not the major focus of the study (that Catholics who are skeptical of AGW tend not to be as environmentally active), we chose whether or not they had installed (or planned to install) compact fluorescent bulbs – since this was the least costly and easiest environmental measure queried in the survey.

Now I know you’re going to point out all that mercury that those bulbs leak into the landfills and at home if they break (could be a validity threat, as people avoid their use due to this local & household environmental problems). It should be pointed out, however, that the extra coal burnt to use regular incandescent bulbs spews out much more mercury into the air, causing much more health hazards to people and nature. Also, it could be that people use CF bulbs because they save money (could be a validity threat as non-environmentalists use them for economic reasons).

Despite these validity threats that would tend the association toward zero, we did get a moderate positive association (gamma = .50, p<.001) of Catholic AGW accepters being more likely to have or intend to buy CL bulbs (83.8%) than Catholic AGW skeptics (63.5%).

As for my qualitative information, those Catholics who were AGW skeptics claiming that creation stewardship is important, tended not to give any examples of what that might entail, or just spoke in vague terms about how we (as a society) need to keep the water and air clean, and not dump toxins into the water; they tended to view these problems as point-source industrial pollution; they didn’t mention anything they were actually doing or intending to do to reduce pollution.

As mentioned, this was only a very small part of a larger study, but I’m thinking this would be a good topic to study in more depth. I do know there are AGW skeptics who are good environmentalists; and there are AGW accepters who do not do much to reduce their GHGs or other environmental harms. However, I would expect to find these types to be fewer and the opposite to be more common. But I could be wrong. Further study needs to be done.

And I would actually hope my hunch is wrong and that AGW skeptics are good earth stewards and are reducing their environmental harms – reducing, reusing, recycling, becoming more energy/resource efficient/conservative – most of which also reduce GHGs (think of the GHGs involved in the extraction of resources and manufacture of products, etc).

It’s just good to do these things for many other reasons, even if one does not believe in AGW.
 
BTW, the study was not biased, but done by a survey company on a random selection over over 2000 Americans. It was not the major focus of the study (that Catholics who are skeptical of AGW tend not to be as environmentally active), we chose whether or not they had installed (or planned to install) compact fluorescent bulbs – since this was the least costly and easiest environmental measure queried in the survey.

Now I know you’re going to point out all that mercury that those bulbs leak into the landfills and at home if they break (could be a validity threat, as people avoid their use due to this local & household environmental problems). It should be pointed out, however, that the extra coal burnt to use regular incandescent bulbs spews out much more mercury into the air, causing much more health hazards to people and nature. Also, it could be that people use CF bulbs because they save money (could be a validity threat as non-environmentalists use them for economic reasons).

.
That is a lovely unsubstantiated claim. Especially since you don’t take into account the extra power it takes to produce the CFLs. The other question is which is more dangerous, mercury poisoning the water supply (and chance of inhaling mercury vapors when they break) or mercury in the air?
 
That is a lovely unsubstantiated claim. Especially since you don’t take into account the extra power it takes to produce the CFLs. The other question is which is more dangerous, mercury poisoning the water supply (and chance of inhaling mercury vapors when they break) or mercury in the air?
The government has taken our mercury thermostats and our mercury thermometers.

So why are they so eager for us to adopt mercury light bulbs?

Why, if the CFL curly bulbs are so benign, do state and other agencies specify HAZMAT procedures for cleaning up a broken CFL bulb?

There is a whole set of assertions, that we get punished if we kill a bat or an eagle, but it is perfectly ok for a wind turbine to kill a bat or an eagle.
 
That is a lovely unsubstantiated claim. Especially since you don’t take into account the extra power it takes to produce the CFLs. The other question is which is more dangerous, mercury poisoning the water supply (and chance of inhaling mercury vapors when they break) or mercury in the air?
Why don’t you do some research on it and let us know what you find.

I know it’s a problem from coal-burning, and the gov is trying to reduce that.

We used to play with it when we were kids, when a thermometer would break. We called it “quick silver.” We liked the way it beaded up and rolled around in our hands.

Maybe that’s why my brains are not good enough now to understand that AGW is not happening 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top