Raise taxes (Archbishop Flynn)

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Catholic2003, it would appear we have a disagreement as to how the CCC should be interpreted. You do not seem to be making any distinction between moral ends and the means used to get them. By your logic it would seem to me that if I was driving from point A to point B and a bishop was in the car next to me, then I’m morally bound to follow his preferred route, especially if it could be related to a morality issue, like we’re driving an ambulance.

Can you show me any place where this has been clarified by the Magisterium?
 
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Catholic2003:
However, Archbishop Burke’s teaching stated that it was immoral to vote for any politician who opposed the criminalization of abortion, even those politicians who acknowledged that abortion was a moral wrong and should be stopped by other means…
I gather, then, you think Archbishop Burke was wrong.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

(If he wasn’t, no Catholic could vote for a Democrat – since even pro-life Democrats support Democrat control of the legislature, which would mean pro-abortion control of all relevant committees.)

I believe that Archbishop Burke was wrong – the proper thing is to simply enforce the Catechism and refuse communion to those who officially support abortion.
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Catholic2003:
It is ludicrous to act as though the Church’s teachings on social justice are somehow optional or less binding than the Church’s teachings on abortion.
It is ludicrous to act as if erronious economic theories are part-and-parcel of Catholic dogma.
 
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coeyannie:
The Archbishop of St. Paul/Mpls., has joined with other Bishops in declaring that our taxes should be raised. :mad: I am trying not to blow the top of my head off. If any of your Bishops are involved in this, how do you feel. :eek:

God Bless all of us.
Well glory be and pass the ketchup…you Minnesotans don’t get to pay enough taxes as it is???
 
vern humphrey:
Anyone who doesn’t think we pay enough taxes is perfectly free to pay more.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
J-O-K-I-N-G…If you were a Minnesota “Humphrey” you probably would have had a hand in making them some of the most overtaxed people in the US–and that’s before the Bishops start digging into their pockets, too! What do all the good Lutherans up there think about this suggestion?
 
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aspawloski4th:
jeremy!@! I work hard for the little I make $8.50 an hour, 50 plus hours a week(just to prove that I make little).; as far as Im concearned no tax cut is wrong or a bad idea. try living in my shoes a while before you shoot your mouth off about tax cuts being bad in any situation. as far as Im concearned the governemnt has too much money. I catholic ttype things I could do with more money bACK IN MY POCKET beat anything any government would do anyday.
At your income level, the plan supported by the Minnesota bishops would put money in your pocket and not require you to pay a dime more in taxes than you do now.
 
Catholic2003,

You are failing to realize that there are many other areas of the budget that the state can cut–the cuts did not have to come from the social programs. I fully agree with you that Catholics are bound to the teachings of helping the poor, yet there are many ways to that end that do not mean raising taxes–also the Church is quiet on the actual method we must invoke to obtain that end.
 
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ByzCath:
It didn’t but the way that this duty is done is not a matter of morals. Raising taxes is not a matter of morals. I can and do give to charitable organizations that help the poor. If my taxes go up then I will have less money to give to those groups.

Do you actually believe that the government is a better way to help the poor?
The Church has long taught that BOTH private charity AND social action are needed.

If private charity alone did the job, there would have been no poverty before the New Deal. There was, I remember.
 
some oldies but goodies…

"The right to have a share of earthly goods sufficient for oneself and one’s family belongs to everyone.

– Second Vatican Council

Minimum material resources are an absolute necessity for human life. If persons are to be recognized as members of the human community, then the **community **has an obligation to help fulfill these basic needs unless an absolute scarcity of resources makes this strictly impossible. **No such scarcity exists in the United States today. **

Economic Justice for All (#70)

There are needs and common goods that cannot be satisfied by the market system. It is the task of the state and of all society to defend them. An idolatry of the market alone cannot do all that should be done.

– **C****entesimus Annus **

Society as a whole, acting through public and private institutions, has the moral responsibility to enhance human dignity and protect human rights. In addition to the clear responsibility of private institutions, government has an essential responsibility in this area. This does not mean that government has the primary or exclusive role, but it does have a positive moral responsibility in safeguarding human rights and ensuring that the minimum conditions of human dignity are met for all. In a democracy, government is a means by which we can act together to protect what is important to us and to promote our common values.

Economic Justice for All (#18,PM)

The complex circumstances of our day make it necessary for public authority to intervene more often in social, economic and cultural matters in order to bring about favorable conditions which will give more effective help to citizens and groups in their free pursuit of man’s total well-being.

The Church in the Modern World (#75)

By its nature private property has a social dimension which is based on the law of the common destination of earthly goods. Whenever the social aspect is forgotten, ownership can often become the object of greed and a source of serious disorder, and its opponents easily find a pretext for calling the right itself into question.

The Church in the Modern World (#71)

As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order. It cannot, therefore, hold aloof from economic matters. On the contrary, it must do all in its power to promote the production of a sufficient supply of material goods, “the use of which is necessary for the practice of virtue.” It has also the duty to protect the rights of all its people, and particularly of its weaker members, the workers, women and children. It can never be right for the State to shirk its obligation of working actively for the betterment of the condition of the workingman.

Mother and Teacher (#20)

The government should make similarly effective efforts to see that those who are able to work can find employment in keeping with their aptitudes, and that each worker receives a wage in keeping with the laws of justice and equity. It should be equally the concern of civil authorities to ensure that workers be allowed their proper responsibility in the work undertaken in industrial organization, and to facilitate the establishment of intermediate groups which will make social life richer and more effective.

Peace on Earth (#64)

The very nature of the common good requires that all members of the state be entitled to share in it

– John XXIII

**Governments must provide regulations and a system of taxation **which encourage firms to preserve the environment, employ disadvantaged workers, and create jobs in depressed areas. Managers and stockholders should not be torn between their responsibilities to their organizations and their responsibilities toward society as a whole.

Economic Justice for All (#118
 
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katherine2:
The Church has long taught that BOTH private charity AND social action are needed.

If private charity alone did the job, there would have been no poverty before the New Deal. There was, I remember.
Wait, http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lookaround.gif, let me see. Yup, :yup: poverty is still here after the New Deal.

Please give one case where raising taxes have cured poverty.

It hasn’t and it won’t. Most economists agree that raising taxes actually hurt the poor more than it helps.

Instead of giving more money to be lost in the black hole of the government I suggest we just start burning it ourselves to cut out the middle man.

The government is very wastful in its management. I would bet that a majority of the money spend by government on the poor is spend on its bureaucracy than it does on the poor.
 
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ByzCath:
Please give one case where raising taxes have cured poverty.
With Social Security (which Bush is trying his best to destroy), the percentage of elderlly persons living in poverty has plummeted, from 4 times the general poverty rate to slightly under the general poverty rate.
Most economists agree that raising taxes actually hurt the poor more than it helps.
How many economists claiming the contrary would you like me to list? I have names. Let me know.
The government is very wastful in its management. I would bet that a majority of the money spend by government on the poor is spend on its bureaucracy than it does on the poor.
You would lose that bet. Some government programs can beat even some of the best of private charities.
 
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Catholic2003:
Have you considered that since the bishops are authentic teachers of the faith, who speak in the name of Christ, we should accept their evaluation of the state budget situation and the need to raise taxes? In my opinion, anyone who rejects their teaching here is just as much a cafeteria Catholic as those who reject the teachings on artificial birth control or voting for pro-choice political candidates.
that confuses the issue behind taxes, which is the proper treatment of private property. We must follow the Church’s teaching on our duties to the poor. Where the discussion gets difficult is in the specifics, which Catholics in good faith may disagree with.
 
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Sherlock:
Coeyannie,

Yes, I’m aware of this and I’m ticked—but then, it’s not surprising, coming from the Archbishop. He’s basically a socialist Democrat who goes to Mass, and I wonder how familiar he is with Leo Xlll’s warnings about socialism in Rerum Novarum, wherein Leo Xlll warns about the state taking over the role of the family and intruding into the life of the family.

Jeremy: nothing is keeping you from paying more than you do now in taxes. You go right ahead and pay more, and if enough of you who want to see higher taxes do that voluntarily, why, those of us who need to keep more of our money for raising our families will be able to do so.
You show a marked unfamiliarity with the encyclicals starting with, I believe, Pope Pius X and up to the current Pope. You seem also highly unfamiliar with the Fathers of the Chruch (eg, Ambrose) and what they had to say about personal property.

It is a knee-jerk reaction to label a bishop as a socialist Democrat without reading what the chruch teaches.

You and I may both disagree with the specifics that the bishop states, but if we do, we might want to propose a better solution, rather than making an ad hominem statement, as if that explained the whole of the Church’s teaching about private property and our moral responsiblity to the poor.
 
katherine2 irregaurdless of what that plan would do with my pay, if my employer’s taxes are increased, my days at work are likely numbered. and here in michigan jobs are very hard to comeby lately.
 
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aspawloski4th:
katherine2 irregaurdless of what that plan would do with my pay, if my employer’s taxes are increased, my days at work are likely numbered. and here in michigan jobs are very hard to comeby lately.
You’ve put your finger on it. Raise taxes, and businesses leave for low-tax states. The state becomes unable to attract new businesses. Employment falls, and we have more, not less poor people.
 
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Jeremy:
Catholic2003, it would appear we have a disagreement as to how the CCC should be interpreted. You do not seem to be making any distinction between moral ends and the means used to get them.
I’m not sure that I would phrase it like that, but I don’t disagree with your assessment. Many acts have a morality attached to them; that is, they are either morally good or morally evil. (I was using the terms “right” and “wrong” before, and perhaps this has resulted in some confusion.) The morality of a particular act is dependent on both the means and the desired end. And the magisterium of the Church has the right to make judgments on the morality of certain (in fact, most) acts, whether that judgment is primarily influenced by the means or by the desired ends.
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Jeremy:
By your logic it would seem to me that if I was driving from point A to point B and a bishop was in the car next to me, then I’m morally bound to follow his preferred route, especially if it could be related to a morality issue, like we’re driving an ambulance.
You seem to be assuming a “mental model” of our bishops as complete idiots. I think it is very likely that none of our bishops would ever attempt to make a binding moral teaching along the lines you suggest here.

If a complete idiot were to be elected the next Pope, one could hypothesize all the weird, unusual, and off-the-wall things he could do with the power of papal infallibility. However, that is not an argument against the fact that the Pope does, under certain defined circumstance, have the charism of infallibility.
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Jeremy:
Can you show me any place where this has been clarified by the Magisterium?
CCC 2032 is a restatement of canon 747 §2. Here is what the Canon Law Society of America’s New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law says for this canon:
The second paragraph further specifies the Church’s teaching function in the moral and social orders. It is to be understood in the sense of Dignitatis humanae 14 and Gaudium et spes 76. The Church’s mission is in the religious order, not in the political, economic, or social orders. Yet its properly religious role can contribute to the building up and strengthening of the human community (GS 42). To this end the Church announces moral principles, even on social issues (footnote 1). The Church can also make judgments when basic human rights or the salvation of souls seem to require it; in making such discernments the Church uses “all and only those means appropriate to the gospel and the good of all”; its contribution is “to increase the spread of justice and charity within nations and between nations” (GS 76).
[Footnote 1]: Two major pastoral letters of the NCCB are fine examples of this social teaching: The Challenge of Peace: God’s Promise and Our Response (Washington, D.C.: USCC, 1983) and Economic Justice for All: Catholic Social Teaching and the U.S. Economy (Washington, D.C.: USCC, 1986).
 
vern humphrey:
I gather, then, you think Archbishop Burke was wrong.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
I say again, second-guessing bishops isn’t one of my pastimes.

If you are asking about what I used to think prior to (re)-forming my conscience around the teaching of the magisterium, it was as follows: At an immediate level, it doesn’t really matter whether we vote for a pro-life or a pro-choice candidate, because abortion isn’t going to be made illegal unless and until we have a massive shift in public opinion at the grassroots level first. However, at a broader level, it is clear that this grassroots shift can’t occur until we starting taking pro-life concerns more seriously, and one very good way to do that is automatically ruling out all pro-choice political candidates a priori.

vern humphrey said:
(If he wasn’t, no Catholic could vote for a Democrat – since even pro-life Democrats support Democrat control of the legislature, which would mean pro-abortion control of all relevant committees.)

I don’t believe this is a correct statement of the Church’s teachings on this matter. My understanding is that voting for pro-life Democrats is quite permissible.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Catholic2003,

You are failing to realize that there are many other areas of the budget that the state can cut–the cuts did not have to come from the social programs.
I’m not failing to realize this or any other economic fact. My argument is that faithful Catholics in the state of Minnesota are bound by the teaching of their bishops in regards to this issue. I am not competent to address the economic or public policy aspects of that teaching, and since I am not myself a member of the Church’s magisterium, it is not my place to do so.

For that matter, I have to wonder how many of the posters who questioned the Minnesota bishops’ economic credentials have a Ph.D. in economics themselves.
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TPJCatholic:
also the Church is quiet on the actual method we must invoke to obtain that end.
Except that, to the chagrin of many of the posters here, the Minnesota bishops are far from quiet on this issue.
 
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Catholic2003:
You are confusing morality with economics here. You are also confusing right and wrong actions with particular economic results.

Perhaps an analogy will help. :cool: It was an immoral act to vote for John Kerry because of his pro-choice stance, even though five million unborn babies were killed under President Bush’s first term, and even though it seems very likely that five million more unborn babies will be killed under President Bush’s second term. That is, actually saving unborn lives doesn’t matter in determining the morality of a particular voting choice. :confused: So why should actually achieving particular economic results matter in determining the morality of a particular tax structure and budget outlay? :rolleyes:
Actually, a Catholic who votes for a Catholic politician who denies his Catholic faith and supports a heinous act would be immoral by participating in the grave sin of scandal. The Catholic politician is actually bearing a false witness to his faith, leading people to believe that it is okay to be Catholic and support abortion.

President Bush is not Catholic, but is Christian. Therefore, the same analysis applies, but to a lesser degree. However, he speaks and acts for the most part as if he agrees with Catholic teaching on pro-life causes.
 
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