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Tomster
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Will somebody please give Ralphy the Scripture quote, AGAIN, regarding Baptism and regeneration for Pete’s sake. It has to do with WATER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT!
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tmac1956
Guest
Is baptism symbolic? Let us turn to scripture (I’m using the KJV):
Ezekiel: 36 25-27: 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing use for what he gives us in the new covenant.
And now, let’s move on to the new testament to see the correlation.
Acts 2:38 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.Is it through baptism that we become Christians and members of the Body of Christ, or do we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. There is no passage in the Bible that says we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. While it is extremely important to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that in itself does not save.
1 Corinthians 12:13 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following:
Colossians 2:11-12 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.
1 Peter 3: 20-21 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Further, let’s look at Jesus’ own words in John’s gospel…
John 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I have heard the position claiming that the water spoken of here is the placental fluid inside the womb; but, scripture never says that. This position is an interpretation (I would call it tortured logic) that is not supported by the context of scripture. Further, let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after he finished his talk with Nicodemus…
John 3:22 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the synoptic gospels about Jesus’ own baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)… the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.
In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
When the disciples were speaking THEY WERE TEACHING. They were not reading verbatim from notes stuffed into their pockets. There was NO bible for 400 years Ralphy. The NT books tells us clearly that one must RECEIVE the gospel from an apostolic teacher and BE TAUGHT. The bible is NOT a do-it-yourself salvation manual. The apostolic gospel MUST be taught to you.
What YOU teach - “by faith alone” and “by scripture alone” etc. is NOTHING at all like what the apostles taught Ralph. The apostles loved their Church - the Catholic Church. Paul himself even called it “the pillar and bulwark of truth”. No apostle ever said “read NT scripture since its the pillar and foundation of truth”. I’ll be honest Ralph. If St. Paul heard even a little bit of the silliness you are spewing in these forums he would curse you for teaching a new gospel that he never heard in his life.
You put words in the mouths of the apostles that they never spoke and in contexts that they would not even recognize as Christian. There was no bible-church in Jesus day or for that matter for over 1600 years. This is a neo-Christian phenomena of the modern era that comes out of Protestantism…
James
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ralphy
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That is correct, God put all power in the hands of Christ. Now we go directly to Him. Ralph
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ralphy
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I quoted from the bible, so were these the words of (God) and the apostles or not.? ralph
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jmcrae
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How do you go “directly to Him” Ralph? Do you actually ascend up into Heaven, yourself?
(I go directly to Jesus in the Confessional, where I meet the priest, who is the vehicle through which Jesus speaks directly to me in an unmistakable human voice that can’t be confused with my own thoughts.
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jmcrae
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“Word of God” = Jesus. The Apostles were not reading aloud from the Bible.
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ralphy
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Exactly, we were created in Jesus (after salvation) to do good works, but not to earn salvation, verse 9 says: NOT OF WORKS. Pretty plain. Ralph
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ralphy
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Were they not speaking as being lead by the Holy Spirit and if they were, then it is the word of God. Ralph
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ralphy
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I go directly to God because the curtain is now torn, it is through prayer. When you pray to one of “your” saints, do you actually ascend up into heaven? RalphHow do you go “directly to Him” Ralph? Do you actually ascend up into Heaven, yourself?
(I go directly to Jesus in the Confessional, where I meet the priest, who is the vehicle through which Jesus speaks directly to me in an unmistakable human voice that can’t be confused with my own thoughts.
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jmcrae
Guest
When I pray to the Saints, I am not actually expecting a verbal response.
But when I pray to God for forgiveness, I need to hear a response - “yes,” or “no.” That’s why I go to the priest - so that I know for sure that I am hearing God’s voice, and not just my own fears, or my own wishful thinking.
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ralphy
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Then I can assume that the priest hears from God immediately as you also wait to hear what God says, right. When you pray to the saints, I don’t think that you will receive any response verbal or otherwise." No one goes to the Father but by Me "(Jesus). RalphWhen I pray to the Saints, I am not actually expecting a verbal response.
But when I pray to God for forgiveness, I need to hear a response - “yes,” or “no.” That’s why I go to the priest - so that I know for sure that I am hearing God’s voice, and not just my own fears, or my own wishful thinking.
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CentralFLJames
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ralphy
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You know James, I believe it was you that said you followed scripture. Now I am beginning to believe that you do not follow all scripture, but surely you must believe this one, it’s very plain and needs no interpretation: Romans 10:17. Ralph
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jmcrae
Guest
The priest is an instrument being used by God. The priest is not hearing something from God and then conveying the information, like a middle-man. Instead, he’s like a microphone that God is using. The voice coming out of his mouth is God speaking to me - God is using the priest as His instrument, at that particular moment in time.
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ralphy
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Not too scriptural, but very Roman catholic. RalphThe priest is an instrument being used by God. The priest is not hearing something from God and then conveying the information, like a middle-man. Instead, he’s like a microphone that God is using. The voice coming out of his mouth is God speaking to me - God is using the priest as His instrument, at that particular moment in time.
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cazayoux
Guest
YES … and Jesus said to the disciples “as the Father has sent me, so I send you”.
Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins.
It was not for only 40 days because scripture doesn’t say that.
It was not for only the apostles lifetime because scripture doesn’t say that.
So WHY did Jesus give the apostles the power to forgive sins?
michel
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cazayoux
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Catholics AGREE …
do you think Catholics think otherwise?
so let me ask … what is the result if you do NOT do the good works you were created for?
will you lose your salvation?
michel
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cazayoux
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again … the scripture … John 20:21-23 … which you have yet to address how these verses are lived out in your faith.
michel
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cazayoux
Guest
Romans 10:17
[17] So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
FINALLY … Ralphy sees from this very scripture that the early church did not operate solely from scripture. They went by oral tradition and ‘what is heard’ … NOT ‘what is read’.
Thanks Ralphy for showing us the truth of Tradition.
michel
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