Raping The Catholic Church:colorado Jumps On The Bandwagon

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bellesjoy:
This confirms that the Bishop is doing his job. You find fault with him for doing that?
The question is not whether I find fault with the bishop. If you go to the original post in this thread, it gives a link to an article regarding a bill in the Colorado legislature that would suspend the statute of limitations for child sexual abuse lawsuits.

The link I provided was to a story about alleged sexual abuse by a current priest.

Regardless of what the Chicago bishop did, if the allegations are true, the Church would face legal liability for the actions of the priest. My point is that judgments are being entered against the Church, not (only) for actions of priests generations ago, but for the past actions of current priests.

It is not the Catholic Church who is getting raped.
 
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Ortho:
Law, Bevalaqua.

(Am I answering fast enough?)/QUOTE

Cardinal Law resigned years ago. I am not familiar with Bishop Bevalaqua. You did not answer the last question, but you don’t have to if you choose not to. Speed has nothing to do with this conversation. However, my job does. I will return.
 
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bellesjoy:
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Ortho:
Law, Bevalaqua.

(Am I answering fast enough?)
Maybe you can restate your question. I answered with Law and Bevalaqua in response to your question, “What bishops are you referring to? Who is your Bishop? Are you Catholic?” Law and Bevalaqua are two of the bishops I was referring to.

(You’re not playing in a chat rooom on the company dime, are you?)
 
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Ortho:
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bellesjoy:
Maybe you can restate your question. I answered with Law and Bevalaqua in response to your question, “What bishops are you referring to? Who is your Bishop? Are you Catholic?” Law and Bevalaqua are two of the bishops I was referring to.

(You’re not playing in a chat rooom on the company dime, are you?)
I am the company. I take breaks based on my own scheldule. I am an RN and owner of my own firm.
Are you a Catholic and who is your bishop currently, if you are?
 
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bellesjoy:
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Ortho:
I am the company. I take breaks based on my own scheldule. I am an RN and owner of my own firm.
Are you a Catholic and who is your bishop currently, if you are?
Cheating yourself? It all comes around.

I don’t reveal any religious affiliation online. It keeps things much more interesting.
 
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bellesjoy:
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Ortho:
I am the company. I take breaks based on my own scheldule. I am an RN and owner of my own firm.
Are you a Catholic and who is your bishop currently, if you are?
Ortho, have you come to stir up trouble or are you here to have a civilized conversation? If to stir up trouble than GET OFF THIS SITE!
 
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bones_IV:
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bellesjoy:
Ortho, have you come to stir up trouble or are you here to have a civilized conversation? If to stir up trouble than GET OFF THIS SITE!
How forceful and authorative. I hope you’re not posting from the office, too.
 
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bellesjoy:
You may offer a fair settlement for counseling, pray for them, offer aid in anyway fesible because you see the injury and as a Catholic want to help them. But you would not ask you children or grandchildren to give up their homes or their futures. That would be irresponsible in your role as parent.
As I understand US law, a victimizer does not get to decide what is fair compensation to the victim. The courts do, in the form of a jury.

The institutional church failed, horribly. In some cases, its bishops knew about evil priests under their supervision and did little or nothing to prevent them from committing further crimes or, even more hideously, to help repair those they knew had been injured already.

That is disgraceful conduct. It is evil.

It is convenient for Catholics to say, “Whoops. Not us. Wasn’t us. It was our bishops, our priests. The abuse occurred in our buildings by men we trusted with authority over our eternal souls. Not our fault. Don’t punish us.”

There’s something to be said for that. We are presented with a heirarchical model. We, as laity, have no authority over what decisions the institutional church makes. We don’t get to pick our bishops. Nobody in the church has to listen to us when we complain, whether our complaints are about the orans posture or sexual molestation of our sons and daughters. They don’t have to, and, guess what?

They don’t. It’s the one thing “liberals” and “conservatives” can agree on.

Let’s face it, folks. Our church failed the victims. They’re injured and angry. Cardinal Law (to use one example) didn’t listen. Eventually they found somebody who would – the secular legal system. The only reason that the American church became responsive to the sexual abuse crisis was because the victims threatened it financially.

That’s disgraceful. So is comparing the rape of innocents to the “rape” of the Church.

Is it fair to the parishoners? Of course not. It’s not fair if I’m counting on an inheritance from my grandfather and he gets sued and financially ruined because he shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die. It’s not fair if my IBM stock (hypothetical, I assure you) drops in value because some dim-bulb manager couldn’t keep his hands off his secretary.

Maybe that’s the way to look at it – we’re voteless stockholders of a corporation run by incompetent and foolish management.

Or maybe we’re sheep who have the misfortune to be led by incompetent shepherds. Sure, the shepherds do bad things to some of us, but the rest of us look the other way until the day the ranch is sold and the new owners come in and ship us all to the slaughterhouse.

Our institution is not innocent. It is not. Who is the institution? Why, despite the fact that we have no say in how it’s run, we are. Because we’re the ones who make up the Church, and children were hideously mistreated by those we allowed to be placed in authority over us.

So we lose a bunch of money and buildings? We’re a long way from Galilee. The apostles had no buildings, no schools, no teachers, no pews, no golden chalices or music ministers. It would be nice to think that the Church is something more than the sum of its possessions.

And it would be nice to think that we, as Catholics, could do for ourselves some of the things we’ve been content to delegate to the institutional church if we had to.

It also would be nice to think that the virtues of charity, compassion contrition, repentance, and restitution apply to the shepherds who preach them, not just the sheep. If some good comes of this evil, perhaps it will be to help all of focus again on what’s really important.
 
I think the interesting part is how public schools get an exemption… Why is that? There seems to be quite a few publicized cases of statutory rape and abuse on parts of teachers lately… Yet they are exempt?
 
Testify Penny! Testify!

You said it, but I feel it. Wish I could have said it myself.

Nohome
Penny Plain:
As I understand US law, a victimizer does not get to decide what is fair compensation to the victim. The courts do, in the form of a jury.

The institutional church failed, horribly. In some cases, its bishops knew about evil priests under their supervision and did little or nothing to prevent them from committing further crimes or, even more hideously, to help repair those they knew had been injured already.

That is disgraceful conduct. It is evil.

It is convenient for Catholics to say, “Whoops. Not us. Wasn’t us. It was our bishops, our priests. The abuse occurred in our buildings by men we trusted with authority over our eternal souls. Not our fault. Don’t punish us.”

There’s something to be said for that. We are presented with a heirarchical model. We, as laity, have no authority over what decisions the institutional church makes. We don’t get to pick our bishops. Nobody in the church has to listen to us when we complain, whether our complaints are about the orans posture or sexual molestation of our sons and daughters. They don’t have to, and, guess what?

They don’t. It’s the one thing “liberals” and “conservatives” can agree on.

Let’s face it, folks. Our church failed the victims. They’re injured and angry. Cardinal Law (to use one example) didn’t listen. Eventually they found somebody who would – the secular legal system. The only reason that the American church became responsive to the sexual abuse crisis was because the victims threatened it financially.

That’s disgraceful. So is comparing the rape of innocents to the “rape” of the Church.

Is it fair to the parishoners? Of course not. It’s not fair if I’m counting on an inheritance from my grandfather and he gets sued and financially ruined because he shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die. It’s not fair if my IBM stock (hypothetical, I assure you) drops in value because some dim-bulb manager couldn’t keep his hands off his secretary.

Maybe that’s the way to look at it – we’re voteless stockholders of a corporation run by incompetent and foolish management.

Or maybe we’re sheep who have the misfortune to be led by incompetent shepherds. Sure, the shepherds do bad things to some of us, but the rest of us look the other way until the day the ranch is sold and the new owners come in and ship us all to the slaughterhouse.

Our institution is not innocent. It is not. Who is the institution? Why, despite the fact that we have no say in how it’s run, we are. Because we’re the ones who make up the Church, and children were hideously mistreated by those we allowed to be placed in authority over us.

So we lose a bunch of money and buildings? We’re a long way from Galilee. The apostles had no buildings, no schools, no teachers, no pews, no golden chalices or music ministers. It would be nice to think that the Church is something more than the sum of its possessions.

And it would be nice to think that we, as Catholics, could do for ourselves some of the things we’ve been content to delegate to the institutional church if we had to.

It also would be nice to think that the virtues of charity, compassion contrition, repentance, and restitution apply to the shepherds who preach them, not just the sheep. If some good comes of this evil, perhaps it will be to help all of focus again on what’s really important.
 
Penny,

I actually agree with much of what you said. (I mean this without malice of any kind). The Church will still exist without these “things”, it will just be MUCH harder for us.

I want one thing to be remembered, regardless of current handling of these situations, AT THE TIME much of the abuse happened, and priests were moved around, THE PSYCOLOGISTS AGREED that sexual abusers could be treated and CURED.

I most cases, the priests were given the “appropriate” care and treatment by the church, and assumed cured. They were sent on to a “fresh start”.

Unfortunetly, the advice of the “professionals” was DEAD WRONG.

Can we go back and sue all of the psycologists who gave bad diagnosis because of this? I think not.
 
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Siena:
Penny,

I actually agree with much of what you said. (I mean this without malice of any kind). The Church will still exist without these “things”, it will just be MUCH harder for us.

I want one thing to be remembered, regardless of current handling of these situations, AT THE TIME much of the abuse happened, and priests were moved around, THE PSYCOLOGISTS AGREED that sexual abusers could be treated and CURED.

I most cases, the priests were given the “appropriate” care and treatment by the church, and assumed cured. They were sent on to a “fresh start”.

Unfortunetly, the advice of the “professionals” was DEAD WRONG.

Can we go back and sue all of the psycologists who gave bad diagnosis because of this? I think not.
I’ve Said it before and I’ll say it again. Why were psycologists consulted instead of the police. This was, is, and always will be a crime. The counseling part should have come after the police were notified. Why would anyone consult a psycologist if you saw a violent act in progress. No one would. You report a crime to the police, not a counselor.
 
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Siena:
The Church will still exist without these “things”, it will just be MUCH harder for us.
No question. But maybe we will become less complacent and less expectant that the institutional church will do for us what we can do for ourselves.
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Siena:
I want one thing to be remembered, regardless of current handling of these situations, AT THE TIME much of the abuse happened, and priests were moved around, THE PSYCOLOGISTS AGREED that sexual abusers could be treated and CURED.

I most cases, the priests were given the “appropriate” care and treatment by the church, and assumed cured. They were sent on to a “fresh start”.
I want four things to be remembered, regardless of the current handling of the situations.
  1. The institutional church’s response to the victims of these crimes was not compassionate.
  2. What the abusers did was against the laws of man and God.
  3. The bishops who knew about these crimes did not report the crimes to the secular authorities.
  4. The institutional church admitted its guilt and began to take steps to address only in response to secular legal proceedings begun by the victims.
Assume that one of the roles of Christ’s Church on earth is to model Christ-like behaviour for us poor schulbs in the pews. Is the above how our shepherds command us to address our own failings?

It is not.
 
Penny Plain:
No question. But maybe we will become less complacent and less expectant that the institutional church will do for us what we can do for ourselves.

I want four things to be remembered, regardless of the current handling of the situations.
  1. The institutional church’s response to the victims of these crimes was not compassionate.
  2. What the abusers did was against the laws of man and God.
  3. The bishops who knew about these crimes did not report the crimes to the secular authorities.
  4. The institutional church admitted its guilt and began to take steps to address only in response to secular legal proceedings begun by the victims.
Assume that one of the roles of Christ’s Church on earth is to model Christ-like behaviour for us poor schulbs in the pews. Is the above how our shepherds command us to address our own failings?

It is not.
I will say that, the priests were given to a ‘pyshciatrist’. PennyPlain is right, those priests should not have been given a fresh start, they should have been removed from ministry. Those priests needed a good spiritual director along with a good pyschriatrist, not just a “pyschiatrist”. Saying a priest is ‘cured’ and giving him a fresh start is not compassion. That’s scandal. Giving a priest just a pyschriatrist is the bishop’s way of saying there is no connection between sin and the sex abuse scandal. Another is the failure of the bishops to communicate with the holy father in Rome on the sex abuse scandal because they felt uncomfortable about it. And the bishops that felt uncomfortable about the sex abuse scandal, had a bad understanding of the bishopric themselves. The roots of it are bad training in the seminaries and dissent. Thank the dear Lord above that the pope is cracking down on dissent in seminaries. Apparently in Europe, ‘sex abuse’ is not a story. The Vatican needs to do a better job in communication and pay attention to the stories that come out in the media because it does have an effect on people. John Paul II understood this all too well. The Vatican operated under the assumption ‘the media will have no impact on us as long as we can do what we want to kind of attitude’. Which is the wrong way to approach communication.
 
It seems to me that “hades” is trying very hard lately to rip down the Lord’s Church (notice these same attacks are not being made against Protestant Churches). It seems the Catholic faith and the Jews are under extreme attack in recent times…makes one wonder…
 
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TPJCatholic:
It seems to me that “hades” is trying very hard lately to rip down the Lord’s Church (notice these same attacks are not being made against Protestant Churches). It seems the Catholic faith and the Jews are under extreme attack in recent times…makes one wonder…
Code:
Hi TPj, long time no hear! Hi bones!

Satan only attacks anything that is a threat to himself…he is totally narcissistic. Thus, in conclusion, Holy Mother Church is and always will be the biggest threat as we adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and revere His Immaculate Mother. And he hates both. The Jews are God’s chosen people and He will take care of them Himself. Thus, of course, Satan hates them also.

Our priests are our greatest gift. As Father John Corapi has said…no priest, no Jesus. So, ultimately they are the target big time. We have been blessed with it all…and Satan knows that. Let us pray for our priests that they may persevere. Fr corapi has said that it is so lonely to be a priest. If a priest is seen with a woman, he is having an affair. If a priest is seen with another man, well, he must be homosexual. And if seen with a child…I need not continue!

It will get worse before it gets better…are we ready for the battle? 😃
 
shoshana,

Speaking of the op, I feel that there is no defense for the abuse that has occured, yet the “world” is having a feeding frenzy on the Church. If this ins’t endtimes, then man it is going to really ugly when they do arrive.

I agree with you statements…and hello again. 🙂
 
Penny Plain:
It is convenient for Catholics to say, “Whoops. Not us. Wasn’t us. It was our bishops, our priests. The abuse occurred in our buildings by men we trusted with authority over our eternal souls. Not our fault. Don’t punish us.”
Penny;

I don’t believe the point of the OP was that the Church shouldn’t pay as recompense for the sexual abuse scandal. Part of our theology as Catholics involves understanding the nature and consequences of sin, and temporal punishment is certainly a big part of it. Were you to ask the average “Catholic in the street,” as it were, I believe most would agree that the Church does have to make restitution.
However, were you to read the original article posted by Bones, you’d see his point is that the Church is seemingly “singled out” for punishment. Please don’t raise your hackles; I know that the actions of the bishops were wrong. But there seems to be a determined drive in this country by some (not all) to employ the scandal as a reaosn to punish and possibly even destroy the Church. It is the selected targeting of the Church (rather than other institutions which are as culpable or more) that is the original poster’s point.

Pax,
CathChemNerd
 
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