RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

[zerinus]

Zerinius from your blog you state “prayer is an act of worship”, at that same token wouldn’t singing hymns be an act of worship too? By your narrow definition of the word? If that is the case how do you reconcile singing hymns to Joseph Smith?

That is a smart question. Singing hymns is indeed an act of worship. In fact it is a form of prayer. In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord has described a hymn as such:

D&C 25:12 “For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart; yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, and it shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads.”

But a hymn can have many “subjects”. We have a hymn that extols the virtue of the family, called “I have a family here on earth” (#300). We have a hymn called “America the Beautiful” (#338). We have another hymn called “Come Come Ye Saints” (#326), which was written in the old pioneer days to sing to keep their spirits up as they journeyed to Zion. Similarly, we have several hymns in our hymn book that have Joseph Smith as their subjects, in some form or another. We have one called “We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet” (#19). We are not worshipping Joseph Smith, but thanking God for sending us a prophet to restore His Church in the latter days, as He had done in ancient times. We have another one (which is probably the one you are tanking of) called “Praise to the Man” (#27) whose first line reads: “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer”. It is true that it extols the virtues of Joseph Smith; but the focus is still God, who called and ordained him to bring about the Restoration in the last days. We are thanking the Lord for his life, his sacrifices, his great example of faith, dedication, and the great work he did under divine guidance to restore His Church in the last days. It is still and act of worship to God, not to Joseph Smith.

By the way, the LDS website has a great feature for playing those hymns as notes, as music, or with voice. Have a look, it is good fun to play with.

zerinus

 

[Sixtus]

That is a smart question. Singing hymns is indeed an act of worship. In fact it is a form of prayer. In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord has described a hymn as such:

D&C 25:12 “, we have several hymns in our hymn book that have Joseph Smith as their subjects,

We have one called “We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet” (#19). We are thanking God for sending us a prophet to restore His Church in the latter days, as He had done in ancient times.
zerinus

But I thought that Scripture teaches and the Lords own parables depict that He is the last in the line of prophets.

I see nothing in the Scriptures which refers to ‘the prophet who is to come!’ On the contrary Scripture warns us about prophets who will come and lead many astray I am not saying that Joseph Smith is one of their number, only asking the question.

Why would Christ leave an established authority on earth then bypass it?
​

​

 

[Sixtus]

No where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic Church so arrogant as to 'tell the living that they are condemned to hell because they are not Catholics, so why and on whose authority does Mormons condemn the living when they do not know how a person’s life will pan out? Who are Mormons to tell folk that they are already in hell?

The Catholic mission is one of reconciling the world to God, not condemning folk to hell.

 

[PaulDupre]

That is a smart question. Singing hymns is indeed an act of worship. In fact it is a form of prayer. In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord has described a hymn as such:

D&C 25:12 “For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart; yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, and it shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads.”

We have another one (which is probably the one you are tanking of) called “Praise to the Man” (#27) whose first line reads: “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer”. It is true that it extols the virtues of Joseph Smith; but the focus is still God, who called and ordained him to bring about the Restoration in the last days. We are thanking the Lord for his life, his sacrifices, his great example of faith, dedication, and the great work he did under divine guidance to restore His Church in the last days. It is still and act of worship to God, not to Joseph Smith.
zerinus

Really, Z? Let’s let the viewers decide.

PRAISE TO THE MAN

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.
Jesus annointed that prophet and seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him and nations revere!

Chorus:
Hail to the prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with gods, he can plan for his brethren.
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.

Chorus

Sounds pretty worshipful to me, by your definition of worship.
Paul

 

[po18guy]

Really, Z? Let’s let the viewers decide.

Sounds pretty worshipful to me, by your definition of worship.
Paul

This was written about man by man. The only one who proclaimed Joseph Smith a prophet and god was Joseph Smith. If some of his followers did, like the writer of this tribute, wouldn’t that tend to prove that Smith was not the last prophet, but those who proclaimed him actually were? Lord, have mercy upon those who are mislead, who persist in ignorance.

 

[Sixtus]

PRAISE TO THE MAN

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.
Jesus annointed that prophet and seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him and nations revere!

Chorus:
Hail to the prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with gods, he can plan for his brethren.
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus

Wow, punchy stuff. Don’t think we need ever worry about any mis-interpretations from Worlds Last Chance

I thought at first it was a song of Christ. Only realised on reading the contribution that followed, this is attached to Joseph Smith.

This is tooooo heavy for me. Have to leave the thread

 

[zerinus]

Really, Z? Let’s let the viewers decide.

Sounds pretty worshipful to me, by your definition of worship.
Paul

Like it or not, when we sing that hymn, I consider myself praying to, and worshipping God, not Joseph Smith. I think that every LDS would say the same.

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

Wow, punchy stuff. Don’t think we need ever worry about any mis-interpretations from Worlds Last Chance

I thought at first it was a song of Christ. Only realised on reading the contribution that followed, this is attached to Joseph Smith.

This is tooooo heavy for me. Have to leave the thread

Dear Sixtus,

It would be better you stay and check the thread now and then, I have been absent for some time now, but this thread has taken some odd shifts since I left. Reading your posts, I see you are not getting very good answers to your questions. We must see if we can get some.

Don’t worry how heavy it is, – many hands make light work…

 

[zerinus]

Like it or not, when we sing that hymn, I consider myself praying to, and worshipping God, not Joseph Smith. I think that every LDS would say the same.

zerinus

And these are the lyrics of the hymn, “America the Beautiful”:

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America ! America !
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man’s avail
Men lavished precious life !
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!​

So you reckon when we sing this hymn we are “worshipping America”?

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

You are correct, christians do not worship America.
I think you gave me a fantastic idea though…

The next time a Protestant tells me I am worshipping Mary I will bring this up and the pledge of allegiance… I wonder what they will say?



Thanks Z:thumbsup:

And these are the lyrics of the hymn, “America the Beautiful”:

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America ! America !
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man’s avail
Men lavished precious life !
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!​

So you reckon when we sing this hymn we are “worshipping America”?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

You are correct, christians do not worship America.
I think you gave me a fantastic idea though…

The next time a Protestant tells me I am worshipping Mary I will bring this up and the pledge of allegiance… I wonder what they will say?



Thanks Z:thumbsup:

I don’t think that would help you much though. When you pray to Mary, you rally pray to her. You address yer directly in prayer, and petition her for help. That is real prayer. It is hard to brush that under the carpet.

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

I don’t think that would help you much though. When you pray to Mary, you rally pray to her. You address yer directly in prayer, and petition her for help. That is real prayer. It is hard to brush that under the carpet.

zerinus

Worship and prayer are the same to you?

 

[zerinus]

Worship and prayer are the same to you?

Yes! Prayer is an act of worship, as I have already explained in this post.

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

Yes! Prayer is an act of worship, as I have already explained in this post.

zerinus

So, I am worshipping not only Mary, but all the saints in heaven I pray to?

I am worshipping all the Church Triumphant?

This sounds scandalous.

 

[zerinus]

So, I am worshipping not only Mary, but all the saints in heaven I pray to?

I am worshipping all the Church Triumphant?

This sounds scandalous.

I know it does! But that ain’t my problem is it. It is your problem!

zerinus

 

[hosemonkey]

“By the way, the LDS website has a great feature for playing those hymns as notes, as music, or with voice. Have a look, it is good fun to play with.”

Zerinus, I would sooner play with a poisonous serpent.

Mormons don’t worship Joseph Smith? Poppycock! I went to a mormon wedding some time ago (reluctantly) and there, the happy couple was told by the presider(a “bishop”) that the only way to heaven was by (guess who?) Ol’ Joe Smith! Not through Jesus, but by the old Fornicator himself. Sounds like you mormons have surely replaced Our Lord Jesus Christ with a dead reprobate. Is that so, zerinus?

 

[Philothea53]

zerinus, you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want to, or can’t, but has it ever occurred to you that it is awfully fishy that Joe took 4 years to ‘translate’ the golden plates into a book form and so much of it was lifted straight out of the Bible?

Do you ever wonder why the golden plates supposedly disappeared? mormonism is the only religion where the only ‘proof’ you have of what you believe is - - - - nothing. You have nothing to back up anything Joe said. Not one thing. I know you have the statement of the 12 witnesses but what is it they really saw? Smoke and mirrors? You don’t know. There is nothing tangible to prove that anything REALLY happened the way Joe said it did.

Think about it.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Is it possible this Zerinus guy is a plant ? I mean, his comments are so illogical and without foundation in Christian tradition or Scripture and his assertions about mormonism defy common sense.

Look at how he makes parallels to that goofy mormon hymn and “America the Beautiful”!

He must be a creation of CA to stimulate the Non-Catholic thread.

I say this because even the Mormons who post here distance themselves from him and those bizarre statements he claims.

Robert

 

[Hellisreal]

I know it does! But that ain’t my problem is it. It is your problem!

zerinus

I dont know why you think its a problem (the communion of saints)

 

[PaulDupre]

hosemonkey:

I went to a mormon wedding some time ago (reluctantly) and there, the happy couple was told by the presider(a “bishop”) that the only way to heaven was by (guess who?) Ol’ Joe Smith!

That’s offcial Mormon doctrine.

“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are – I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Brigham Young, October 9, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:289).

Lest any Mormon say “Well, that was just Brigham Young’s opinion - we don’t teach that anymore”…

“Every man who has lived since the days of Joseph Smith is subject to accepting him as a prophet of God in order to enter into our Heavenly father’s presence” (A. Theodore Tuttle, “Joseph Smith re-established fullness of true gospel, Church,” Church News, March 17, 2001, p.14).

Paul