RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

[LittleDeb]

Perhaps so - the custom here in Calgary is to begin preparation for Confirmation in the sixth grade, which is around age 11 or 12.

Most Confirmation programs here in the city run for about six weeks - in some parishes, they do run longer than that - I know of one that goes from January until May, and then from September to mid-October, but that’s the longest one I know of. The kids who complete that program normally start in the sixth grade and finish in the seventh grade - it’s unusual to be any older than that, and it would certainly be unusual to be 18 years old - I think if they have not been Confirmed by age 16, they are sent to RCIA, and treated as uncatechized adults.

Wow, good to know, thanks!

12 seems awfully young to me, but as I said it has moved to 16 in the States since I was confirmed. Maybe we are just more immature here?

Since Confirmation is a completion of Baptism it does make sense to have them closer together like the Eastern Rite Catholics do, but I am glad I made the choice to be confirmed when I had a better handle on who I was.

In general I really do wish I had a deeper understanding of the LDS take on Confirmation and what not. They have their boys entering the priesthood at 12 but the girls don’t seem to have anything comparable. Their Baptisms are at 7-8 like our first Confessions and First Holy Communion. But they receive their Sacrament meal years before their baptism. I guess I am not sure I understand their order of importance. I can see the reasoning behind our practices at different ages, but I have trouble following the reasoning behind the LDS practices.

 

[zerinus]

Wow, good to know, thanks!

12 seems awfully young to me, but as I said it has moved to 16 in the States since I was confirmed. Maybe we are just more immature here?

Since Confirmation is a completion of Baptism it does make sense to have them closer together like the Eastern Rite Catholics do, but I am glad I made the choice to be confirmed when I had a better handle on who I was.

In general I really do wish I had a deeper understanding of the LDS take on Confirmation and what not. They have their boys entering the priesthood at 12 but the girls don’t seem to have anything comparable. Their Baptisms are at 7-8 like our first Confessions and First Holy Communion. But they receive their Sacrament meal years before their baptism. I guess I am not sure I understand their order of importance. I can see the reasoning behind our practices at different ages, but I have trouble following the reasoning behind the LDS practices.

I was not familiar with the Catholic rite of Confirmation, so I had to look it up on the Internet. I presume this is an accurate description:

request.org.uk/main/dowhat/confirmation/confirmation04.htm
request.org.uk/main/dowhat/confirmation/confirmation05.htm

Our confirmation is not as elaborate as the Catholic one. It consists of the laying on of the hands of the one possessing proper priesthood authority, and bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost (and pronouncing a blessing at the same time, as moved upon by the Holy Ghost). Since we do not baptize infants, our Confirmation takes place shortly after baptism.

As for the other matters you had mentioned, they do not relate to the rite of Confirmation. I am not sure what it is that you are asking about them.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

In general I really do wish I had a deeper understanding of the LDS take on Confirmation and what not. They have their boys entering the priesthood at 12 but the girls don’t seem to have anything comparable. Their Baptisms are at 7-8 like our first Confessions and First Holy Communion. But they receive their Sacrament meal years before their baptism. I guess I am not sure I understand their order of importance. I can see the reasoning behind our practices at different ages, but I have trouble following the reasoning behind the LDS practices.

Mormons believe that any child under 8 is not accountable for their own actions, so therefore they do not need a baptism yet. Mormons do not believe baptism is necessary based on original sin.

At age 8 mormons believe that a child is old enough to understand and can be accountable for the promises they make at baptism. Mormons believe that once the child is accountable for their actions and have made promises via their baptism, they need the Holy Spirit to help them out. The two are usually done within a few days of each other but often within the same hour.

When mormons take their sacrament they are remembering Christ’s sacrifice AND renewing the promises they made at baptism. Any young child who has not been baptized is participating in remembering Christ’s sacrifice only.

At age 12 boys begin to prepare for their responsibilities as priesthood holders and fathers. A 12 year old boy does not have much responsibility within the mormon priesthood yet. It is about the same as an altar boy. At age 14 they can do a little more and are called “teachers”, and age 16 they are called “priests”. A mormon priest can prepare and bless the sacrament. At age 19 the young man becomes an “elder”, and can pretty much do anything that is required of an adult male in the lds church. Men who are asked to be Bishops, or higher leaders, must become “high priests”.

Young women and girls from age 12 to 18 work to “prepare for her future responsibilities as a faithful woman, wife, and mother, and in her opportunities to serve within the Church”. There is a lot of goal setting and lessons on how to prepare for those future responsibilities. A young woman over the age of 18 has the goal and purpose to marry a mormon priesthood holder in an lds temple, followed by bringing children into the world and raising them as good and faithful mormons.

 

[jmcrae]

Wow, good to know, thanks!

12 seems awfully young to me, but as I said it has moved to 16 in the States since I was confirmed. Maybe we are just more immature here?

Since Confirmation is a completion of Baptism it does make sense to have them closer together like the Eastern Rite Catholics do, but I am glad I made the choice to be confirmed when I had a better handle on who I was.

I don’t know - there are lots of good arguments on all sides. Part of the thinking around here, at least at the level of speculation, is that the Sacrament provides the graces needed for the trials of adolescence and young adulthood, when the Devil seems particularly active in pulling people out of the Church.

Of course, in order for the graces of the Sacrament of Confirmation to be at all effective, the individual has to remain in a state of grace by attending Mass regularly, at least on Sundays and all holy days of obligation, and by making frequent use of the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Communion. That’s the part that so many people seem to forget about.

There is also a sense, among certain families, that the Sacrament of Confirmation is a “graduation from Church” - that, somehow, once you’ve received the Sacrament of Confirmation, that’s it - you don’t have to attend Catholic school or go to Mass anymore. I have no idea where that idea is coming from (I mean apart from the obvious - the Devil is obviously at the root of it, but which teaching of the Church is being misrepresented or misunderstood is difficult to pin down) - it would be interesting to know what these families are thinking of, or why they think that the child is no longer obligated to go to Church or to receive Catechesis after Confirmation.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Wow, good to know, thanks!

12 seems awfully young to me, but as I said it has moved to 16 in the States since I was confirmed. Maybe we are just more immature here?
…

I was confirmed at age 6, the day before I made my First Communion. That was 1952.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[PaulDupre]

I was confirmed at age 13; that was in 1967. I believe 13 year-olds were far more mature then than they are today.
Paul

 

[rmcmullan]

If I may go back to an earlier point, the one regarding the LDS Seminary program. I don’t really see the Catholic equivalent here unless the child is enrolled in a Catholic school. Since I now live in the States, that translates to a private school and that’s not a viable option to a good Catholic family with lots of children!

LDS seminary consists of four years of daily instruction of about 45 minutes. It is either at the teacher’s home or at the church. The teenagers are usually grouped according to the high school they attend. Each year it is one of: Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament or D&C. At the college age there is Institute which is similar and is usually held across from the college they atend. Not all colleges have an institute though. So I think that’s pretty good instruction on top of the 3(!) hours every Sunday.

Part of the reason the Mormons can offer so much is because of their lay priesthood. Even though the guys are often preparing for missions, the young women also attend. Actually, it’s only about 20% of those eligible that serve missions and maybe twice that that attend seminary.

 

[rmcmullan]

McMullen - here are the websites for the Catholic Youth Organization and the National Federation for Catholic Youth Ministry. There are links to other Catholic Youth sites at the NFCYM. I know they can’t give you the personal touch of someone directly involved but at least an overview of purpose, goals and activities.

cyo.on.ca/index.html

Oh, I guess it was the CYO. I lived in Mississauga, which is adjacent to Hamilton.

 

[majick275]

If I may go back to an earlier point, the one regarding the LDS Seminary program. I don’t really see the Catholic equivalent here unless the child is enrolled in a Catholic school. Since I now live in the States, that translates to a private school and that’s not a viable option to a good Catholic family with lots of children!

LDS seminary consists of four years of daily instruction of about 45 minutes. It is either at the teacher’s home or at the church. The teenagers are usually grouped according to the high school they attend. Each year it is one of: Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament or D&C. At the college age there is Institute which is similar and is usually held across from the college they atend. Not all colleges have an institute though. So I think that’s pretty good instruction on top of the 3(!) hours every Sunday.

Part of the reason the Mormons can offer so much is because of their lay priesthood. Even though the guys are often preparing for missions, the young women also attend. Actually, it’s only about 20% of those eligible that serve missions and maybe twice that that attend seminary.

you might be surprised at the financial aid for Catholic schools, especially for ones with lots of children. the lay priesthood also has the disadvantage of a lack of training. this makes it somewhat difficult to ensure proper instruction. I taught LDS seminary. it’s not a bad program (except for the doctrinal errors of the LDS church of course) and it is better to have daily instruction than just weekly.

I think though that there has been an intense effort led by Boyd Packer to favor “faith promoting” over accuracy in instruction and this has caused great ignorance of LDS history, doctrinal “development” within the LDS church and actual current LDS doctrine. Lots of milk…where’s the meat?

 

[lukewarm]

you might be surprised at the financial aid for Catholic schools, especially for ones with lots of children.

Catholic school cost me $4,000 a year to send my son to Kindergarden probably $5,000 if you count all the “optional” donations for lunch room, computer room, home school association fee etc… The High School rose to $8,000 a year.

As a tithing parishoner I thought it was borderline robery, but because I lived in a bad area with terrible schools I had no choice. I don’t know what the deal is because my Mom, Aunts, Uncles, and my Mother’s husband all went to Catholic School for free.

 

[rmcmullan]

I think though that there has been an intense effort led by Boyd Packer to favor “faith promoting” over accuracy in instruction and this has caused great ignorance of LDS history, doctrinal “development” within the LDS church and actual current LDS doctrine. Lots of milk…where’s the meat?

You know Majick, I do agree with you on that. True, the people who post on these forums are probably more hard core doctrine types than your average guy on the street but it really does bother me the way the lessons gloss over the underlying meanings and instead offer up touchy-feely type things. If it was just seminary, I’d let it go but it’s really the general approach. It’s presented that way in the teacher development classes.

I guess there’s room in there for both types of teachers but there does seem to be a greater emphasis on the uh, emotional presentation. It might go back to what you said about qualifications: a seminary teacher has to know the scriptures, has to be able to present them in an interesting way and needs to be able to reach out to teenagers, probably the most demanding of all the tasks. So maybe if they’re good at all those other things, the deep scriptual knowledge is just a bonus!

 

[po18guy]

Mormons believe that any child under 8 is not accountable for their own actions, so therefore they do not need a baptism yet. Mormons do not believe baptism is necessary based on original sin.

At age 8 mormons believe that a child is old enough to understand and can be accountable for the promises they make at baptism. Mormons believe that once the child is accountable for their actions and have made promises via their baptism, they need the Holy Spirit to help them out. The two are usually done within a few days of each other but often within the same hour.

When mormons take their sacrament they are remembering Christ’s sacrifice AND renewing the promises they made at baptism. Any young child who has not been baptized is participating in remembering Christ’s sacrifice only.

At age 12 boys begin to prepare for their responsibilities as priesthood holders and fathers. A 12 year old boy does not have much responsibility within the mormon priesthood yet. It is about the same as an altar boy. At age 14 they can do a little more and are called “teachers”, and age 16 they are called “priests”. A mormon priest can prepare and bless the sacrament. At age 19 the young man becomes an “elder”, and can pretty much do anything that is required of an adult male in the lds church. Men who are asked to be Bishops, or higher leaders, must become “high priests”.

Young women and girls from age 12 to 18 work to “prepare for her future responsibilities as a faithful woman, wife, and mother, and in her opportunities to serve within the Church”. There is a lot of goal setting and lessons on how to prepare for those future responsibilities. A young woman over the age of 18 has the goal and purpose to marry a mormon priesthood holder in an lds temple, followed by bringing children into the world and raising them as good and faithful mormons.

I must be charitable here, but it sounds like a tossup for women: Mormonism, or Islam. At least Islam has a great reverence for Mary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I must be charitable here, but it sounds like a tossup for women: Mormonism, or Islam. At least Islam has a great reverence for Mary.

That is what began my exit from mormonism…when I was a teen I saw this future as a stifling cage, called BS to the situation and began to question everything.

 

[po18guy]

That is what began my exit from mormonism…when I was a teen I saw this future as a stifling cage, called BS to the situation and began to question everything.

Rebecca, you have a much larger family now, in every parish worldwide, than you lost through your “apostacy”. You are a blessing to this forum. Welcome! :hug1:

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, you have a much larger family now, in every parish worldwide, than you lost through your “apostacy”. You are a blessing to this forum. Welcome! :hug1:

Thanks for the welcome… I am just getting to know that worldwide family.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks for the welcome… I am just getting to know that worldwide family.

A request, if you would be so kind: please pray for the seeking heart of a 20 year old Mormon woman named “Bethany”, who is dissatisfied with Mormonism and has agreed to attend mass. Her beloved grandmother was Catholic, which provided the connection. Praise God! And, God bless you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LDS seminary consists of four years of daily instruction of about 45 minutes. It is either at the teacher’s home or at the church. The teenagers are usually grouped according to the high school they attend. Each year it is one of: Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament or D&C.

What happened to the Pearl of Great Price, is it covered? I remember spending quite a bit of time in that book. I also remember mormon church history getting coverage in seminary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A request, if you would be so kind: please pray for the seeking heart of a 20 year old Mormon woman named “Bethany”, who is dissatisfied with Mormonism and has agreed to attend mass. Her beloved grandmother was Catholic, which provided the connection. Praise God! And, God bless you.

Sure. Out of curiosity, where is she located?

Also, she should know that she is not the first or last mormon to leave and take a good look at the RCC. There’s a bunch of us. A lot more than I realized. I went to an RCIA welcoming a couple of weeks ago. Everyone introduced themselves and for some reason part of that introduction was explaining how you came to be investigating RC. Fully 1/2 of the people there had mormon backgrounds. I am in SLC, so that shouldn’t have come as a surprise. But I was sort of expecting to show up to an empty room with no one there but me. lol. There were about 24 or so people there, not counting the RCIA staff and sponsors.

edit to add: and that was at just one SLC parish…there are of course more parishes with their own RCIA programs. SLC is something like 70% mormon, so it is a good bet that a lot of the people at those RCIAs have mormon backgrounds as well. I hope y’all are praying for all of us. I know that I need all the help I can get.

 

[rmcmullan]

What happened to the Pearl of Great Price, is it covered? I remember spending quite a bit of time in that book. I also remember mormon church history getting coverage in seminary.

D&C is actually a combination of D&C, PofGP and some church history too. Mostly salutes to the hardy pioneers who crossed the plains.

 

[majick275]

Catholic school cost me $4,000 a year to send my son to Kindergarden probably $5,000 if you count all the “optional” donations for lunch room, computer room, home school association fee etc… The High School rose to $8,000 a year.

As a tithing parishoner I thought it was borderline robery, but because I lived in a bad area with terrible schools I had no choice. I don’t know what the deal is because my Mom, Aunts, Uncles, and my Mother’s husband all went to Catholic School for free.

well each school is different. Our old parish had a school that capped tuition at 4 children which has a big help for big families. it had progressive discounts for 2nd, 3rd and 4th child. payments could be made monthly and there was generous aid available for low income families.