RCIA last night

[Irishmom2]

I think that in every parish, a priest or deacon should be on the RCIA team. Priests are busy people, no doubt, but certainly shepherding potential converts has to be high on his list of priorities.

And I agree with what you say here too. It is just too important of a matter for him to not be involved. Especially in this case where he knows something is not right.

 

[BillB2]

I agree with this. I think that in every parish, a priest or deacon should be on the RCIA team. Priests are busy people, no doubt, but certainly shepherding potential converts has to be high on his list of priorities.

As a non Catholic it probably isn’t any of my business, but I agree with you.

I don’t know how large these classes are, but graduating these students, filled with false doctrine, can’t be a good thing for the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

I agree with this. I think that in every parish, a priest or deacon should be on the RCIA team. Priests are busy people, no doubt, but certainly shepherding potential converts has to be high on his list of priorities.

I agree with this completely. In fact, I have rarely heard of a situation where three was not a priest or deacon present the vast majority of the time. Our parish used to have sister running it and she was very orthodox by all accounts.

The bottom line is that the pastor is responsible for everything which happens, or fails to happen, within his parish. He needs to know about this right away. I would recommend against going to the bishop as some have stated, unless the pastor is unresponsive.

Peace,

 

[roseo64]

yes…please tell your pastor and bishop …
and remember the commandment…
“thou shalt not kill”…when two cells come together the beginning of a new and different life begins!!!

 

[Leegal]

Nancy Pelosi said something similar to this on a nationally televised show.

She said the church had never decided when life began and it is wrong to claim the church opposes abortion.

Pelosi is a practicing Catholic. Why wasn’t she excommunicated?

Shouldn’t she be considered a heretic?

The Pope rarely does public excommunications as was done in previous years in matters of politics – they do excommunicate in matters of violations of Church teachings. I can’t recall the last, but that honor for political person who was excommunicated publicly may be Fidel Castro in 1962. However, members of “Call to Action”, “Catholics for Free Choice” and “Planned Parenthood” were publicly excommunicated, not by name.

IMO, Pelosi, if she knows anything, MAY be excommunicated latae sententia. Last time I mentioned this someone took me to task on this, but basicially there are a few things which carry an automatic excommunication, we know what they are – abortion, blasphemy and apostasy. These are not recorded by a Bishop – you would know if you incurred an automatic excommunication – or should.

 

[Leegal]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

Yes, speak with the priest.

 

[michelleds]

I completed RCIA last year and I’m sorry that you’ve had this experience. it can feel very disheartening to someone who is excited about coming into the Catholic Church to be confronted with such wrong thinking by someone who is supposed to be teaching you.

You might want to print this 2 page document from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/Forming-Consciences-Faithful-Citizenship-bulletin-insert.pdf

particularly highlight the first paragraph under Doing Good and Avoiding Evil on page 1.

I think you should definitely talk to your priest. if, God forbid, he agrees with the woman, then make an appointment to meet iwth the Bishop or his representative. may I ask what state you are in?

however, I strongly encourage you to focus on your Lent and Easter, your coming into the Church, and how awesome that is!

 

[sw85]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

A doctrine that is not declared infallible is simply inerrant – it is still binding and nonnegotiable.

Your RCIA teachers are in the wrong here and you were right to challenge them. Your story is very concerning. Either your teachers are ignorant of Church teachings or maliciously misrepresenting them; in either case they should not be trusted to run catechesis. As others have said, you should alert the parish priest, and be insistent about meeting with him if necessary.

 

[LaSalle]

Yes, better bring the CCC along … as Scott Hahn said RCIA stands for Roman Catholic Ignorance Amok! hahaha

 

[Castello]

Two things here - first, that abortion is a sin is a doctrine of the Church. Your pastor and bishop should be made aware that the “RCIA Leader” is teaching that this is not so.

Second is the bit about voting.

The Church has not defined who one may or may not vote for. If one votes for someone BECAUSE they are an abortion supporter, that would be a sin. There are times when one may vote for someone who is an abortion supporter - as I heard it explained lets say that there are two people running for office. Both believe that murder is okay. One believes that murder with chainsaws and pickaxes is good, the other feels that murder should only be done through lethal injection. The lethal injection guy is a better choice than pickaxe man.

The USCCB explains voting here: usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/

 

[dje101]

I completed RCIA last year and I’m sorry that you’ve had this experience. it can feel very disheartening to someone who is excited about coming into the Catholic Church to be confronted with such wrong thinking by someone who is supposed to be teaching you.

You might want to print this 2 page document from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/Forming-Consciences-Faithful-Citizenship-bulletin-insert.pdf

particularly highlight the first paragraph under Doing Good and Avoiding Evil on page 1.

I think you should definitely talk to your priest. if, God forbid, he agrees with the woman, then make an appointment to meet iwth the Bishop or his representative. may I ask what state you are in?

however, I strongly encourage you to focus on your Lent and Easter, your coming into the Church, and how awesome that is!

I live in the Sacramento diocese of California.

 

[Is_it_okay_to]

This is very sad. Try to get your pastor to visit the class to correct and clarify these questions for the members. These things are very important in their formation of a Catholic conscience.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I was SO shocked to hear here say these things. I was having trouble with most of the things she was saying last night, like we shouldn’t worry about mortal sin because it is EXTREMELY difficult to commit one.

It’s crazy not to worry about it, but she might have a point about mortal sin being difficult to commit. There is no Doctrine concerning this, and Catholic theologians hold different opinions. There are some theologians who believe it is difficult for a Catholic of good will to mortally sin. Since it is impossible to know if any particular act qualifies as a mortal sin (only God can ever know for sure), it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong.

At any rate, this is purely her opinion, and has no place in RCIA (unless she made it clear it is not an official Church teaching).

 

[Pete_Holter]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope…

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it…

Greetings in Christ, dje101!

“Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

“The deliberate decision to deprive an innocent human being of his life is always morally evil and can never be licit either as an end in itself or as a means to a good end. It is in fact a grave act of disobedience to the moral law, and indeed to God himself, the author and guarantor of that law; it contradicts the fundamental virtues of justice and charity. ‘Nothing and no one can in any way permit the killing of an innocent human being, whether a fetus or an embryo, an infant or an adult, an old person, or one suffering from an incurable disease, or a person who is dying. Furthermore, no one is permitted to ask for this act of killing, either for himself or herself or for another person entrusted to his or her care, nor can he or she consent to it, either explicitly or implicitly. Nor can any authority legitimately recommend or permit such an action.’

“As far as the right to life is concerned, every innocent human being is absolutely equal to all others. This equality is the basis of all authentic social relationships which, to be truly such, can only be founded on truth and justice, recognizing and protecting every man and woman as a person and not as an object to be used. Before the moral norm which prohibits the direct taking of the life of an innocent human being ‘there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. It makes no difference whether one is the master of the world or the ‘poorest of the poor’ on the face of the earth. Before the demands of morality we are all absolutely equal’ ” (, 57Evangelium Vitae).

This “doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being” is identified by the Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei as de fide and it therefore “require the assent of theological faith by all members of the faithful. Thus, whoever obstinately places them in doubt or denies them falls under the censure of heresy, as indicated by the respective canons of the Codes of Canon Law.” De fide means that the teaching has been revealed by God and is therefore infallible. It is not infallible via papal pronouncement, but by his definitive reaffirmation of its having been “clearly taught by Sacred Scripture, constantly upheld in the Church’s Tradition and consistently proposed by her Magisterium” (, 57Evangelium Vitae). In other words, it was already infallible via the ordinary and universal Magisterium. When this happens, the Pope will not issue a dogmatic definition; otherwise, it would have the effect of voiding the infallibility of the ordinary and universal Magisterium and rendering it moot.

If your priest is looking for new materials, the RCIA class that my wife took a couple of years ago used materials from The Association for Catechumenal Ministry. From what I read of them, they are excellent!

Welcome, welcome, to the Catholic Church!

With love in Christ,
Pete

“If everything that the Roman Catholic Church taught were true…”

 

[Gorgias]

Yeah, thought so. I am the only one in the class that brings a CCC to every class. When she said that, I found the exact paragraph you pointed out and said “well the CCC speaks against, so if it’s not a teaching, why is it in here?”. She didn’t have an answer, but just said over again that “we need to vote according to our conscience and I can’t tell someone what they can’t do. That’s just how I feel.”.

Castello made a good point in her reply last night (post #30): the issue of abortion’s morality and the issue of voting are two distinct questions.

When you say that you raised the issue of the morality of abortion (using the CCC), and your RCIA instructor responded with the issue of voting, it makes me think that perhaps there was some misunderstanding going on here…? Perhaps you thought the subject was abortion and she thought the topic was voting?

In any case, as others have mentioned, the teaching on abortion is clear. However, as Castello mentioned, the morality of voting allows for certain interesting and morally valid choices (one might validly vote for a pro-abort candidate – as long as he wasn’t voting for this candidate because s/he was for abotion, and as long as he was following his conscience in deciding that the vote for the pro-abort candidate was the lesser of two evils).

 

[dje101]

I think we got on the subject because she telling us how she LOVED a particular president because he stated that he wanted to keep his religious views and political views separate and she thought that was “just awesome”. So I asked how can one keep their two views separate while still doing a thorough examination of conscience. I said “for instance, abortion; since the church teaches agains it, aren’t we obliged morally and as Catholics to vote against anything that would make it legal?”. And it went on from there.

 

[Gorgias]

I said “for instance, abortion; since the church teaches agains it, aren’t we obliged morally and as Catholics to vote against anything that would make it legal?”.

“anything” or “anyone”?

In any case, though, your RCIA teacher, if she’s teaching what she “feels”, appears to be straying from what she should be doing. Nevertheless, in matters of conscience, she’s not completely wrong: we do have an obligation to do what our conscience tells us. (However, we also have the obligation to properly form our consciences – and one of the best ways to tell that our conscience needs a bit of re-form is when it tells us one thing and the Church tells us another. At that point, we shouldn’t be asserting “I must do what my conscience tells me” so much as “I need to find out why my conscience is diverging from the teachings of Christ’s Church”!)

 

[jwinch2]

I think we got on the subject because she telling us how she LOVED a particular president because he stated that he wanted to keep his religious views and political views separate and she thought that was “just awesome”. So I asked how can one keep their two views separate while still doing a thorough examination of conscience. I said “for instance, abortion; since the church teaches agains it, aren’t we obliged morally and as Catholics to vote against anything that would make it legal?”. And it went on from there.

Well, that’s interesting, as well as something else she is wrong about. Catholics are not supposed to compartmentalize their faith from the rest of their lives. We are supposed to live it throughout, including in the political arena. This is also in the Catechism as well as the Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church and is pretty clearly stated. Donald Cardinal Wuerl has a new book out on this exact subject entitled: Seek First the Kingdom.

This isn’t very charitable of me, but it sounds like she ought to be in the class, not teaching it.

I am very sorry to hear what you are going through and the poor catechesis you are receiving. I had such a wonderful RCIA experience that it really pains me to hear these types of things. If you have not already followed the advice of almost everyone above, I hope that you speak to your pastor very soon about this matter.

Peace of Christ,

Jason

 

[tizzidale]

I went through a very similar experience in RCIA. I felt like I was constantly under the skin of the teachers, but they were just not willing to stand firm on Catholic teaching. Perhaps they were scared they would run some off, but I think people need to know what they’re truly assenting to.

So what did I do? I became Catholic and joined the RCIA team. I encourage you to do so as well. Candidates relate well to fellow converts.

 

[dje101]

I went through a very similar experience in RCIA. I felt like I was constantly under the skin of the teachers, but they were just not willing to stand firm on Catholic teaching. Perhaps they were scared they would run some off, but I think people need to know what they’re truly assenting to.

So what did I do? I became Catholic and joined the RCIA team. I encourage you to do so as well. Candidates relate well to fellow converts.

I’ve spoken to my priest about joining the RCIA team in the past and he was very supportive of the idea, saying that he might have me start out with teaching some of the “hot topics like abortion and gay marriage”.