RCIA last night

[dje101]

I’m torn on this. On the one hand, going over the priest’s head is probably not a good idea. On the other hand, the priest isn’t doing anything about the issue. On the third hand, our friend dje101 is doing a good job containing the damage this teacher is doing. It’s not a position he should have to be in, though.

My advice (which is possibly meritless) would be to continue keeping your priest apprised of the situation so that he may have as much ammunition as possible with which to confront this teacher when he makes changes to the program. If, and only if, he appears to be making no serious efforts in this regard would I confront him about it; and only then would I go to the bishop.

Your advice is basically what is currently happening and exactly what I was thinking. The pastor wants me to email him with every incident that they teach incorrect doctrine, so when he sits down with the team after RCIA is over, he can have evidence that things are not being taught the way the should be, and he therefore has evidence and proof to back up why he is making such changes, such as possibly getting a new team in there. He told me on the phone a couple weeks ago that “the teaching that goes on in the parish is ultimately MY responsibility, so it needs to be correct.”

 

[sw85]

Your advice is basically what is currently happening and exactly what I was thinking. The pastor wants me to email him with every incident that they teach incorrect doctrine, so when he sits down with the team after RCIA is over, he can have evidence that things are not being taught the way the should be, and he therefore has evidence and proof to back up why he is making such changes, such as possibly getting a new team in there. He told me on the phone a couple weeks ago that “the teaching that goes on in the parish is ultimately MY responsibility, so it needs to be correct.”

This is very encouraging. It’s good work you’re doing, too, holding your catechists accountable for the falsehoods they speak and protecting your fellow classmates from error. God bless you.

 

[anp1215]

Update. It just keeps getting better and better.

So after our scrutiny on Sunday, she told us that those who are baptized need to go to confession prior to Easter Vigil and those who haven’t been baptized don’t need to go to confession. I raised my hand and said “from what I’ve read, if we haven’t been baptized then we can’t go to confession.”. She said “no you can go, you just don’t have to because you will be getting baptized.”. So I brought it up in another thread, got the appropriate paragraph to correct her, then brought it up to a different teacher last night, who informed me that Father was teaching that night on confession and it would be a good time to bring it up.

At the end of the class when Father was wrapping things up, I asked if those who are not baptized can go to confession. I did not do this privately, I raised my hand and he answered in front of the whole class. Within a matter of minutes, after we did our closing prayers, the RCIA teacher in question reminded everyone that we have a reconciliation mass coming up on Wednesday and that “it would be a good time to go to confession for those who have been baptized, but those who had not been baptized have a choice as to wither or not they want to go.”. Father had not even left the room and she was already contradicting what he had said.

The whole class corrected her, and I was simply in shock that within minutes of Father clearly saying that the unbaptized could not, she says the exact opposite. And even then , after the class corrected her, she reaffirmed that we could 2 more times until a teacher had to directly get her attention and say “NO they CANNOT go to confession”.

I cannot wait until this class is over with, primarily so I can accept the Eucharist but secondarily because I’m tired of hearing her contradict Church teaching.

What is wrong with this person? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with this person?

 

[dje101]

This is very encouraging. It’s good work you’re doing, too, holding your catechists accountable for the falsehoods they speak and protecting your fellow classmates from error. God bless you.

Thanks. But it’s been because of the help I’ve received on these forums.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Wait, in baptism all sins are remitted. So I don’t know if you have to go to confession before baptism, don’t think so actually. Please correct when wrong.

 

[dje101]

What is wrong with this person? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with this person?

I wish I knew…

I think it’s because she has this idea that her position on the RCIA team is what makes her right in these matters rather than realizing that it should be her knowledge of Chuech teaching that makes her right.

The scary thing is that she’s been doing RCIA for something like 19 years.

 

[Quarles47]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

Yes, you should bring it up with the Priest, hopefully he is not one of those that’ll leave someone hanging for confession to attend an appointment. RCIA facilitators and staff have in the pass, are now, and will in the future teach error. They need to be constantly and continually policed.

Hopefully I’m not gigged again for disrespecting the RCIAhood.

 

[dje101]

Yes, you should bring it up with the Priest, hopefully he is not one of those that’ll leave someone hanging for confession to attend an appointment. RCIA facilitators and staff have in the pass, are now, and will in the future teach error. They need to be constantly and continually policed.

Hopefully I’m not gigged again for disrespecting the RCIAhood.

I agree that they need to be policed, not with the assumption that they are TRYING to teach against the church, but just for the fact that they are human and are prone to error. Luckily I’ve got 1) a priest who is very eager to make the necessary changes so we have a proper RCIA and 2) these forums, which have helped me so much with learning the true teachings of the church in preparation for this frustrating period.

Thank you to everyone on these forums!

 

[Miriam1947]

Wait, in baptism all sins are remitted. So I don’t know if you have to go to confession before baptism, don’t think so actually. Please correct when wrong.

If you have not been baptized you cannot go to confession. Only after baptism~when you will be a saint for 10 minutes (or maybe less)

 

[sw85]

Is there any particular reason priests cannot run RCIA classes personally? They are trained seminarians for Heaven’s sake!

 

[jwinch2]

Is there any particular reason priests cannot run RCIA classes personally? They are trained seminarians for Heaven’s sake!

Time mostly I imagine. At smaller parishes many of them seem to take on the responsibility themselves. However, if you are one priest with 1100 families to shepherd, you aren’t going to get too far without delegating some things.

 

[GunnerQuick]

In my Parish, we have a cluster of 4 Churches and so have 3 priests that are assigned to are area. When I went through RCIA last year the entire class was taught by either one of the priests or we have 4 deacons. There were no Lay persons that taught ( with the exception of the deacons wife that talked with him on the subject of marriage ) I guess I was lucky in having a good RCIA…

 

[Quarles47]

I agree that they need to be policed, not with the assumption that they are TRYING to teach against the church, but just for the fact that they are human and are prone to error. Luckily I’ve got 1) a priest who is very eager to make the necessary changes so we have a proper RCIA and 2) these forums, which have helped me so much with learning the true teachings of the church in preparation for this frustrating period.

Thank you to everyone on these forums!

Thank you. I did not realize that I was implying that the RCIA staff would intentionally teach error, but remember anything they do teach they need to be ready to back up with fact. It has been my experience so many of these staffs are unprepared.

 

[dje101]

Thank you. I did not realize that I was implying that the RCIA staff would intentionally teach error, but remember anything they do teach they need to be ready to back up with fact. It has been my experience so many of these staffs are unprepared.

I apologize, I was not saying you were implying anything of the sort. But because you said “Hopefully I’m not gigged again for disrespecting the RCIAhood” in an earlier thread, I was simply expanding your original point so as to avoid any potential arguments that might ensue because someone MIGHT think there is some disrespect going on.

Just trying to keep the peace while still agreeing with your original statement.

 

[Maryann_C]

Dear Dje 101, I see you are an Augustine fan :thumbsup:me too. I have been off CA forums for a while and have finally found time to get on and just read your whole thread. RCIA has been a hot topic for me too ever since I came into the Church 4 years ago . For me RCIA was like going through labor pains- I offered it up, because I had already read my way in basically. Since then I have either been on the team or been a sponsor. You would have been even more shocked to hear a priest say something that was not completely with traditional church teaching like I did. I did/do the same thing as you …sit with the CCC handy. For all who say that the Priest is the answer I am sad to tell you …not necessarily so.
I really do think that actually the Bishops need to come up with a universal lesson /study plan. Almost like something perhaps that Scott Hahn’s St Paul’s center for Theology puts out with the Genesis to Jesus study, with video teaching and a work book. I feel like that is the only way to at least TRY get everyone on the same page and learning the basic truth of Church teaching. That still allows for discussion and questions which is an important part of inquiry and where there is room for error but nothing is perfect.
I also feel that it is time for the RCIA teachers to be given a back bone and to be told by the Bishops " it is OK if some turn away and leave RCIA because they find a certain teaching too hard" after all Jesus did not change His teaching or the way he worded it, to placate the disciples who turned away from Him when He told them that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood as in John 6. Sometimes I feel like it is a numbers game…lets get as many in . I would rather see a leaner more orthodoxly faithful Catholic Church full of people who really do know what the Church teaches and are ready to defend it at all costs.

 

[dje101]

Hi all.

I was speaking with my RCIA teacher tonight and it was regarding abortion (again), however, this time I was regarding ectopic pregnancies. We had been discussing this earlier in the class and felt he needed to come talk with me some more about it. After having gone round in circles, I asked him if he considers abortion wrong and he said, in the given circumstance, that it may not be. I started saying that many Catholic ethicists have said that to directly abort the baby would be morally wrong, and that the only morally permissible way to save the mother would be the removal of the Fallopian tube, and proceeded to explain why that it is. He said “not every occasion has morals behind it.”. I told him that yes, there will always be a matter of morals to consider. He responded with “the problem is that you’re thinking too much into it. It wouldn’t matter to me one way or the other, I wouldn’t lose sleep over it, and I wouldn’t even take it to confession.”

Since ectopic pregnancies haven’t been explicitly explained by the church, is this an instance that I should bring up to my priest or should I leave it as a difference of opinions?

Thanks and God bless

Derek

 

[Ender]

Since ectopic pregnancies haven’t been explicitly explained by the church, is this an instance that I should bring up to my priest or should I leave it as a difference of opinions?

First of all, whether or not you ask your priest, this is not simply a difference of opinion. There is right and wrong involved here that is not subject to mere opinion. I think this is a situation that has to be resolved under the principle of double effect.

There are four conditions that must be satisfied for an action with known bad outcomes to be moral:
1 - The action to be performed must be morally good in itself or at least morally neutral.
2 - The good effect must not come directly from the evil effect but must come directly from the action itself.
3 - The good must be willed and the evil only allowed or tolerated.
4 - The good effect must be at least equivalent in importance to the evil effect.

The direct action is the removal of the fallopian tube.
The death of the embryo in the fallopian tube contributes nothing to the health of the mother.
The intent is healing the mother, not getting an abortion.
The mother’s life is surely as important as the embryo’s.

One of the results of the operation to remove the fallopian tube is the death of the embryo - which cannot be saved in any event - but an abortion is neither the direct action nor the intent, therefore the operation is permissible.

Ender

 

[dje101]

First of all, whether or not you ask your priest, this is not simply a difference of opinion. There is right and wrong involved here that is not subject to mere opinion. I think this is a situation that has to be resolved under the principle of double effect.

There are four conditions that must be satisfied for an action with known bad outcomes to be moral:
1 - The action to be performed must be morally good in itself or at least morally neutral.
2 - The good effect must not come directly from the evil effect but must come directly from the action itself.
3 - The good must be willed and the evil only allowed or tolerated.
4 - The good effect must be at least equivalent in importance to the evil effect.

The direct action is the removal of the fallopian tube.
The death of the embryo in the fallopian tube contributes nothing to the health of the mother.
The intent is healing the mother, not getting an abortion.
The mother’s life is surely as important as the embryo’s.

One of the results of the operation to remove the fallopian tube is the death of the embryo - which cannot be saved in any event - but an abortion is neither the direct action nor the intent, therefore the operation is permissible.

Ender

Exactly. Now, I didn’t have those 4 conditions memorized, so I wasn’t able to spout that off to him. But the summary you provided was what I told him, and he responded with what I quote him saying above.

 

[Ender]

Exactly. Now, I didn’t have those 4 conditions memorized, so I wasn’t able to spout that off to him. But the summary you provided was what I told him, and he responded with what I quote him saying above.

Well, if there is any silver lining here it is that at least you know to challenge your RCIA teacher. You are well advised to doubt anything he says that seems the least bit questionable.

Ender

 

[dje101]

Well, if there is any silver lining here it is that at least you know to challenge your RCIA teacher. You are well advised to doubt anything he says that seems the least bit questionable.

Ender

I try. He said some other things during the conversation as well that I’m goin to be speaking with my priest about.

Get this…

As we were talking about the issue, I said that I thought the Vatican released a document saying what would be the right way (I thought it was, but it was actually from a catholic bioethics web page saying it). Anyways, he said that if they did, it wouldn’t change his mind. I said it should, because one way is abortion and the church has strictly said that it is a sin. He said “well if they did release something like that, I’d think it’s a bunch of horse s***. You know why? Because I think we’ve got our conscience for a reason. I mean, do I have to believe in the assumption?”. At this point i was pretty much as shocked as I could possibly be. I said, “uh, YEAH, to be a Catholic, yeah.”. He said “where’s the proof? There’s nothing in the Bible about it. And we just make up stories to try to explain it when their only real reason is ‘because it’s fitting’. They weren’t so primative that they didn’t have a word for cousin.”.

I almost don’t even want to go anymore. I’m so tired of this stuff. I mean, I’m already Catholic. And my “teachers” obviously have no idea what they’re doing. I could learn more just staying at home reading by myself.