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hamba2han
Guest
If the descendants converted to Islam AFTER they have inherited the land, then this matter does not even arise at all when they in turn pass the land to their own Muslim children.
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ralphinal
Guest
But the Jews say that by becoming Muslim, they renounced their claim.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
No one, in the examples, converted to Islam, including the deceased.
So, what if the Muslims converted to Christianty, like say, Jinnah’s descendants. Can they inherit the land?
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hamba2han
Guest
Where is this proviso stated in the “title-deed” to the land?
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ralphinal
Guest
I would say that it is implied when God made the Covenant with Isreal that the land would be theirs forever. Part of the covenant is that they remain faithful to the Religion. Every time they did not, they got removed from it. When they returned to the faith, they returned to the land.
So the Muslim decendants of those Jews need forwarding addresses.
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scipio337
Guest
To be honest, the whole situation confounds me. Everywhere you look after in a post-colonial or post Soviet era, you see former colonies, etc, fracturing down ethnic or religious lines. Modern India and Pakistan are a perfect example. There is still some contested land to this day, but not nearly as high-profile (or volatile) as the ME.
After the dissolution of the British Raj and the Partition of India, more lives were lost (around 1 million) and more population was exchanged (14 million) than during the Isreal/Palestine partition after the British Mandate ended.
Why is this?
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ralphinal
Guest
My gut feeling is shear numbers. More people can die from a disaster in China, India or Pakestan than any other nation.
What would the difference be if based on per centage of population?
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hamba2han
Guest
In the event of a an offspring who has already inherited the parent’s property when he was still a Muslim but later leaves the fold of Islam… then I am not aware of any Sharia law which will enable his other siblings to reclaim any of the property that he has inherited from the parent and possibly disposed of.
I could be mistaken about this though and if anyone knows differently, please feel free to correct me.
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hamba2han
Guest
The Covenant was made with conditions attached and it is imperative that no one forgets this extremely important fact which is stated in the Bible itself.
First off, the Qur’an states that the Children of Israel were indeed the ‘chosen people’.
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Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
The Bible, on the other hand, states that there are actually conditions attached to the covenant given to the Jews.
Exodus
19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
If Jews do not keep the covenant and make Israel into a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”, then the punishment for the Jews is also stipulated in the Bible:
Leviticus
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
…
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
…
26:28 then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And a warning is given to the Jews:
Deuteronomy
28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
Is there then hope for Israel according to the Bible?
Isaiah
19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
19:25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
In other words, Jews cannot continue to see themselves as the ‘chosen people’ and Israel as the most favored nation in the eyes of the Creator because this view is simply not supported in the Bible.
And since it is just so obvious that Israel is a secular country which has completely discarded any notion of being a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”, then why indeed are Jews claiming a divine right to the land when they have long broken the conditions attached to the Covenant?
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ralphinal
Guest
This is a wonderful question! You must start by understanding what a covenant is and what it is not. It is not a contract, though it seems like one. A contract has in it a performance clause: party A will do this in exchange for party B doing that. Failure of one side to do their part ends the contract.
A covenant is different. Failure to comply does not inherently end the contract. There may be reprecussions, such as those that the Ancient Jews suffered, but the Coventant is still in place.
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scipio337
Guest
Which begs the question: Who is the arbiter of whether or not that covenant has been broken (I think I know your answer)? And given your answer, how does one objectively judge if that is the given verdict?
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hamba2han
Guest
How on earth do you KNOW that the Covenant is still in place??
Did God Himself send down an assurance to Christians that the Covenant is still in place??
If so, where is it stated in the Bible?
Is modern-day Israel today being run as a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”??
How “objective” does one need to be in order to see that modern-day Israel so obviously does not approach anything even remotely resembling a ‘holy nation’ that is being governed by priests according to the divine Laws which were sent down to Moses (pbuh)?
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ralphinal
Guest
God’s Covenant lasts as long as the world does. God swore on Himself, as there is nothing greater. The Covenant will not and cannot pass away.How on earth do you KNOW that the Covenant is still in place??
Did God Himself send down an assurance to Christians that the Covenant is still in place??
If so, where is it stated in the Bible?
Is modern-day Israel today being run as a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”??
How “objective” does one need to be in order to see that modern-day Israel so obviously does not approach anything even remotely resembling a ‘holy nation’ that is being governed by priests according to the divine Laws which were sent down to Moses (pbuh)?
Modern Isreal is not the same as ancient Isreal. Modern Isreal has no more claim to the mount as the Muslims. Judaism has the claim.
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Psalter
Guest
We think this prophecy is applied spiritually to the true Israel of God–the Catholic Church, which is indeed a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.
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anon52328184
Guest
well, i for one do not believe in replacement theology, that the Catholic Church is the new Israel.
i believe the God still honors his original covenant with his chosen people and he still has a plan for them.
i believe the Catholic Church was formed for another reason and God has made a new covenant with the Catholic Church, but it does not replace his covenant with the Israelites.
from reading the posts on this thread, it seems to me that Islam is a religion that does not want to have respect for other religions and what they believe
or what promises God has made to them
islam does not seem to be a religion of peace because it condones violence.
islam claims to be the final and pure religion and that their hope is that one day we will all live under islamic law and religion.
i am very happy being roman catholic and believing in the triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
and i think jerusalem should be shared by all 3 religions and i do not feel that islam has a legitimate claim to the temple mount.
i believe the God still honors his original covenant with his chosen people and he still has a plan for them.
i believe the Catholic Church was formed for another reason and God has made a new covenant with the Catholic Church, but it does not replace his covenant with the Israelites.
from reading the posts on this thread, it seems to me that Islam is a religion that does not want to have respect for other religions and what they believe
or what promises God has made to them
islam does not seem to be a religion of peace because it condones violence.
islam claims to be the final and pure religion and that their hope is that one day we will all live under islamic law and religion.
i am very happy being roman catholic and believing in the triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
and i think jerusalem should be shared by all 3 religions and i do not feel that islam has a legitimate claim to the temple mount.
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Lev23
Guest
deborahaz, for what it is worth, I personally commend you for your views on Israel, the Church, and Islams supposed claim on the Temple Mount.
Thank you!
L
Lev23
Guest
**These attempts to show Israel as a cast off people of God are silly and desparate!!! **
One problem with your views of Israel, is the fact that God has a remnant of faithful Jews at all times, which sanctifies the fact that the Jews will always be a Chosen people of God.
All nations in the New Covenant can partake in it, but ONLY, and ONLY the nation of Israel is promised a remnant.
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Psalter
Guest
I hope you retract your views because otherwise you are a heretic and go against what the Church has always taught. I don’t have time right now but I will furnish references from official Church documents if you wish.
The term “replacement theology” is usually used among Evangelicals who adhere to premillenial, dispensationalist theology to describe the Catholic (and Lutheran, and traditional Protestant) theology about Israel and the Church (that the Church replaced Israel as God’s chosen people).
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anon52328184
Guest
okay, do all of the research that you want. right now, the Catholic church is not sure how to approach the messianic jewish movement. please research that.
read all about replacement theology - pros and cons.
read all about replacement theology - pros and cons.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
The Sons of Abraham according to the flesh and his Faith have the claim.
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