Reading Scripture together as Christians

[guanophore]

In addition, you church has canonized Paul. Clearly they’re sure of his salvation, why is that he should not have been? Is it because the church says that one can lose salvation, and therefore, can’t be sure? Not even if one is an apostle?

We are sure about all those who have been glorified. It is those who are still here fighting the good fight who need “hope” so that we are not 'disqualified".

You still have yet to explain about the blotting of names from the book of life…

Paul had confidence because the Spirit bore witness in his heart that he was a child of God. Yet, he wrote many things that indicated people could be cut off, disqualified, fall from grace, etc.

 

[cfrancis]

Roman Catholicism stands on one leg which is the Magesterium. The Mormon Faith can make that same exact three legged claim too. But at the end of the the day, they are one legged too with their own brand of the Magesterium.

Then you are right at home, with your one leg of “Reformed’s Authoritative Interpretation of Scripture.”

 

[guanophore]

Quibbling—Also very Catholic!

I notice you did not answer the question. I don’t blame you. It is based on a faulty premise. Being chosen as an Apostle does not assure anyone’s salvation.

 

[guanophore]

To suppose that whatever God requires of us that we have the power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ on none effect. - John Owen

Didn’t Augustine say the same thing about the Christian pilgrimage?

What does God do when we don’t cooperate?

Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. - Hebrews 12

I am sorry, I cannot comprehend how it is possible to read this and not see human cooperation involved.

Consider
struggle against sin
resisted
have you forgotten (recall to your mind)

regard
nor be weary

you have to endure
Therefore lift your drooping hands
strengthen your weak knees,
make straight paths for your feet,
Strive for peace
(strive for) the holiness
See to it

Seems like a lot of cooperation to me. Maybe I dont understand monergism, or you dont’ understand cooperating with grace?

 

[guanophore]

Roman Catholicism stands on one leg which is the Magesterium.

If you have been taught this, then you have been given a lie, or a misunderstanding. If you came to believe it on your own, then it may spring from ignorance. No matter how you look at it, it is an erroneous statement.

The Mormon Faith can make that same exact three legged claim too. But at the end of the the day, they are one legged too with their own brand of the Magesterium.

I agree, which is why, when you equated them, I state that you dont’ seem to understand Catholicism. Why are you here?

 

[Pier]

Where’s the inspired verse that says “grape juice” instead of “wine”? It’s not from Paul… was it a relative of Calvin’s in the business?

 

[Reformed]

I am sorry, I cannot comprehend how it is possible to read this and not see human cooperation involved.

Consider
struggle against sin
resisted
have you forgotten (recall to your mind)

regard
nor be weary

you have to endure
Therefore lift your drooping hands
strengthen your weak knees,
make straight paths for your feet,
Strive for peace
(strive for) the holiness
See to it

Seems like a lot of cooperation to me. Maybe I dont understand monergism, or you dont’ understand cooperating with grace?

The reason you see it this way is because you are semi-pelagius.

 

[guanophore]

The reason you see it this way is because you are semi-pelagius.

No, I think not. You see, Catholics believe that we can do all these things because God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. We believe that the Spirit of God dwells in us through faith, and that it is He who is working out salvation within us. We just don’t believe it is a passive process. We believe it is our obligation to choose, strive, and do all those other verbs in the list above.

Col 1:27
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

We are sanctified by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Reformed]

Michael,

Here is another verse to wrestle with in regards to sanctification being monergistic.

Colossians 1:29

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

 

[Crystal_H]

Michael,

Here is another verse to wrestle with in regards to sanctification being monergistic.

Colossians 1:29

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

Lets read it again Reformed…
For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

My NAB version reads… For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

So I definitely see a little effort of Paul’s part… No monergism here…

SO what is it that you are trying to prove again?
Crystal
BTW… I have started a Novena just for you!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Here is another verse to wrestle with in regards to sanctification being monergistic.

Colossians 1:29

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

Well, they say a proof-text without context is a pretext.

21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works:

22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him:

23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God:

26 The mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now is manifested to his saints,

27 To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.

28 Whom we preach, admonishing every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

29 Wherein also I labour, striving according to his working which he worketh in me in power.

2:1 For I would have you know, what manner of care I have for you and for them that are at Laodicea, and whosoever have not seen my face in the flesh:

2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding, unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus:

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 Now this I say, that no man may deceive you by loftiness of words.

5 For though I be absent in body, yet in spirit I am with you; rejoicing, and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith which is in Christ.

6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him;

7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith*, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men[Calvinism?], according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

*Note the reference here to confirmation.

 

[ryanoneil]

To claim that Paul doubted his salvation is, in my mind, equivalent to doubting that Jesus is the Christ.

Your church canonized Paul, for heaven’s sake. They have no doubt concerning his salvation, why should he have had doubt? Because of some a-contextual, apologetic arguments?

Paul is speaks clearly about the middle of the race in (1 Cor 9:24-27).
Paul knew what was at stake. I’m sure Paul did not doubt God’s faithfulness.
Man’s faithfulness to cooperate with God’s grace is another matter.

If my explaination is lacking please explain what he is really saying?

Paul speaks clearly about the end of the race in 2 Tim 4:6-8

For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.

 

[ryanoneil]

Romans 2:2-5 is another favorite out of context verse used as a staple by Roman Catholics, just like Phil 2:12 without 13, and James 2. Romans 2:2-5 goes with Romans chapter 1, the rest of Romans 2, 3, 4, and 5. , and 6, 7, 8, and 9… and even 10. The chapters are not inspired…it’s one letter in thought. Have you considered the commands of Paul in rightly dividing the Word of Truth and the warnings of the Apostle Peter in twisting the words of Paul?

It’s always easy to make a claim, but not always easy to back it up.

If my explaination is lacking please explain what Paul is really saying?

We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God (Rom 2:2-5)

 

[Crystal_H]

Well, they say a proof-text without context is a pretext.

21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works:

22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him:

23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God:

26 The mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now is manifested to his saints,

27 To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.

28 Whom we preach, admonishing every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

29 Wherein also I labour, striving according to his working which he worketh in me in power.

2:1 For I would have you know, what manner of care I have for you and for them that are at Laodicea, and whosoever have not seen my face in the flesh:

2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding, unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus:

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 Now this I say, that no man may deceive you by loftiness of words.

5 For though I be absent in body, yet in spirit I am with you; rejoicing, and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith which is in Christ.

6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him;

7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith*, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men[Calvinism?], according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

*Note the reference here to confirmation.

Well said Pixiedust! Pray a novena with me?

 

[guanophore]

Michael,

Here is another verse to wrestle with in regards to sanctification being monergistic.

Colossians 1:29

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

I guess I still don’t get it. It seems like, if “I toil”, then it is “I” along with “all His energy”.

It also seems to me that God does not need to struggle. If “I struggle”, then it is my struggle, along with “His energy”.

 

[Crystal_H]

I guess I still don’t get it. It seems like, if “I toil”, then it is “I” along with “all His energy”.

It also seems to me that God does not need to struggle. If “I struggle”, then it is my struggle, along with “His energy”.

Reformed does not get it either… Let’s pray for a change of heart for him together.

 

[Reformed]

It’s always easy to make a claim, but not always easy to back it up.

If my explaination is lacking please explain what Paul is really saying?

We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God (Rom 2:2-5)

I agree with your first statement. We all know in part and are dependent upon the Holy Spirit to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why you find prayers by Paul for God to enable his audience to have greater understanding. Consider the following prayer for Ephesus:

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. - Ephesians

We can debate for the next 10 years, and we may never come together. Or, the Spirit of God can change our hearts on issues, and we could be united tomorrow. The best way to grow in the issues is through prayer and systematically work through the Scriptures together as Christians. I know we will read Scriptures according to our presuppositions. However, God is much greater than our biases. I think it’s time to move to the next Epistle of Paul to work through together as Christians.

Ryan,

Could you please pick a letter and post the first two chapters. Thanks brother.

http://www.todoslosperros.com/razas/basset.jpg

 

[ryanoneil]

I agree with your first statement. We all know in part and are dependent upon the Holy Spirit to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why you find prayers by Paul for God to enable his audience to have greater understanding.

We can debate for the next 10 years, and we may never come together. Or, the Spirit of God can change our hearts on issues, and we could be united tomorrow. The best way to grow in the issues is through prayer and systematically work through the Scriptures together as Christians. I know we will read Scriptures according to our presuppositions. However, God is much greater than our biases.

Amen!

I think it’s time to move to the next Epistle of Paul to work through together as Christians.

Ryan,

Could you please pick a letter and post the first two chapters. Thanks brother.

This is your thread, so I’m not going to try and dictate the direction it takes. I feel we will be moving backward if we cut off the questions on the table because they are getting into the deeper issues, which is what we are after. (it seems like a dodge IMO not to answer the questions).

If you insist, I choose 1 Corinthians. I’m pretty sure the same issues and questions are going to come up regardless of what book we are reading.

I’ll see you back here after going around the circle.

 

[Reformed]

Amen!

This is your thread, so I’m not going to try and dictate the direction it takes. I feel we will be moving backward if we cut off the questions on the table because they are getting into the deeper issues, which is what we are after. (it seems like a dodge IMO not to answer the questions).

If you insist, I choose 1 Corinthians. I’m pretty sure the same issues and questions are going to come up regardless of what book we are reading.

I’ll see you back here after going around the circle.

It seem you agree that Paul writes very similar and conssitent in all his letters. I think it is always profitable to go through the Scriptures togther as Christians. After-all, the Scriptures point to Jesus Christ!

John 5:39

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

 

[guanophore]

The best way to grow in the issues is through prayer and systematically work through the Scriptures together as Christians. I know we will read Scriptures according to our presuppositions. However, God is much greater than our biases. I think it’s time to move to the next Epistle of Paul to work through together as Christians.

This reveals a fundamental differenced between Reformed tradition and Apostolic Tradition. The Apostles received the Truth from Christ, were appointed and empowered by Him to teach and to preach, and handed on (paradosis) the message to their disciples. This all happened before a word of the NT was ever writtten. This continues to be the manner in which people are brought into the Church. The scriptures are profitable for the task, but are not the Source of it, which is Christ. Catholics do not “systemantically work through the Scriptures” because they were not written to be used that way.

It is good to hear you say that you are aware that we read them with pre-suppositions and biases. Catholics read them according to what we have recieved from the Apostles. Those who have left the Apostolic Succession read them according to the traditions from whence they came (Reformers).