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ryanoneil
Guest
I like your response.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Well, I am the Prodigal, y’know.
I’ve always loved that Parable because it tells us so much about God’s mercy.
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ryanoneil
Guest
No. I’m not saying that sinful man has final say in salvation. The Lord is the just judge, and He factors our freewill into His judgment.
I can’t speak to the translation. (you may very well be right) I wish I understood greek so I could find other places it is used in scripture.
If God desires something why wouldn’t it come to pass?
The only thing I can think of is an act of God.
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ryanoneil
Guest
So am I. Praise God.Well, I am the Prodigal, y’know.
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Reformed
Guest
How about the first part of Romans 11?ROM 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
ROM 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree,
ROM 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
ROM 11:19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
ROM 11:20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.
ROM 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.
ROM 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
ROM 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
ROM 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
ROM 11:25 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.
Emphasis mine.
The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”
Gentiles Grafted In
Actually, I believe Romans 11 needs to be understood within the context of Romans 9, 10, and 11. But what do I know?
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guanophore
Guest
It is proper not to presume upon the grace of God. Having been saved by grace, through faith, we are to bear fruit that befits repentance, and not presume…How about the first part of Romans 11?
The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”
Gentiles Grafted In
Actually, I believe Romans 11 needs to be understood within the context of Romans 9, 10, and 11. But what do I know?
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Reformed
Guest
I think you have correctly stated the driven force for the second part of Romans 11. Warnings in Scriptures are vey signicant which many modern day Protestant pastors tend to ignore since they have embraced a Charles Finney theology of altar calls and sinners’r prayers called decisional regeneration. I reject decisional regeneration as presented by large crusades, but I would not protest against them if the gospel is being preached at the large crusades. Decisional regeneration gives many a false assurance and a false hope in light of James 2.
BTW… I like what you posted but you left off a very small 4 letter word.
It is quite interesting you used the word “saved” in the past tense too.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. You’ll find all of those tenses in Scripture.I think you have correctly stated the driven force for the second part of Romans 11. Warnings in Scriptures are vey signicant which many modern day Protestant pastors tend to ignore since they have embraced a Charles Finney theology of altar calls and sinners’r prayers called decisional regeneration. I reject decisional regeneration as presented by large crusades, but I would not protest against them if the gospel is being preached at the large crusades. Decisional regeneration gives many a false assurance and a false hope in light of James 2.
BTW… I like what you posted but you left off a very small 4 letter word.
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Reformed
Guest
I completely agree on your posting. I see salvation as a process too. I’m not sure how Roman Catholic theology can see salvation as a past tense position along with the present and future tense. Could you please explain how you are able to embrace the past tense of salvation in your understanding?
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Because it’s in the Catholic Bible:
I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
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Reformed
Guest
But you do see the apparent dilemma of past tense salvation as being finished, correct?
Protestants are always preaching “the finshed work of Christ” to Roman Catholics, correct? I see the person and work of Christ as actually meriting and securing complete salvation and full atonement for those whom God has chosen for Christ to redeem. Christ earned savation for the elect, and God the Holy Spirit is applying the saving work of Christ to the elect of God. I don’t see the Holy Spirit working in the same effectual way to those who are perishing in comparsion to those the Spirit is saving.
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ryanoneil
Guest
We are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone. But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and good works.
It goes back to the idea that we know salvation is ours to lose. Catholics know we are saved, so long as we endure to the end.
Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. (I Cor 9:24-27)
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
No, I see the past tense salvation as the beginning of the journey. Christ’s death on the cross made it possible for all men to be saved. He didn’t just shed His blood for those who will be saved, but for the sins of the whole world.
May I ask why you persist on only addressing “Roman” Catholics when you’ve repeatedly been asked by me and several other posters to cease from doing so? The Catholic Church is much, much bigger than the Latin Rite. All Apostolic Christian Churches, which includes the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox, hold the same view of salvation in Christ.
Yes, it is Christ who works through us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” We believe that saving faith is evident when we do the works He has given us to do. If we refuse to allow Him to work through us, we have a dead faith which is worse than no faith. We are not fully redeemed until we get to Heaven and have put on incorruptible immortality. During our lives we must run the race set before us, straining for the prize which is in Christ Jesus. (I believe St Paul says something like that, doesn’t he? After all, according to prevailing non-Catholic opinions on here, I’m just a brainless, Biblically illiterate Catholic y’know.
)
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ryanoneil
Guest
Agreed.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)
Many more began to believe in him because of his word, and they said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the savior of the world.” (John 4:41-42)
For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly. (Rom 5:6)
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. (Rom 5:18)
For the love of Christ impels us, once we have come to the conviction that one died for all; therefore, all have died. He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2 Cor 5:14-15)
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guanophore
Guest
No.
Yes.
We see the completed work of Christ fully efficacious at baptism.
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Reformed
Guest
If you see that at bapstism as being complete and effectual in full atonement and redemption, then apostasy is virtually impossible. That is why I do not believe in baptismal regeneration, because so many who are baptized as infants reject Christ later in life.
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Reformed
Guest
Bottom line, we are not universalists right? The command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ is a unviversal command, but Jesus tells us that the road is narrow and only a few find it. Why are some able to remain on the narrow road to redemption and most do not? To those who remain on the narrow road, they will be prasing God for His amazing saving and transforming grace. For the Protestant, grace is completely unmerited by the sinner since grace was completely merited by Christ on our behalf.Agreed.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)
Many more began to believe in him because of his word, and they said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the savior of the world.” (John 4:41-42)
For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly. (Rom 5:6)
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. (Rom 5:18)
For the love of Christ impels us, once we have come to the conviction that one died for all; therefore, all have died. He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2 Cor 5:14-15)
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Pier
Guest
Wouldn’t it be correct to say that it depends on the ground God’s unchanging Word is sown upon? Every person is capable of being saved through Christ, but it is left up to us to accept or reject Him. Think of the people who saw Christ, & still did not believe. However, as no one but God knows who’s going where, we really are beholden to pray that everybody responds in the affirmative, & ends up home with our loving Father.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Until that person reaches an age where they can sin willfully.
That’s just like saying “I do not believe in Jesus because Judas Iscariot and others who had been His disciples rejected Him.”
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
For the Catholic, grace is the very life of God infused into our souls, transforming us into His likeness. Our sins aren’t merely covered by Christ’s blood, they are taken away.
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