Reading Scripture together as Christians

[ryanoneil]

Are we saved by the righteousness of Christ alone as compared to personal good works done in Christ?

We are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone, but by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. (which are both gifts)

For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. (1 Cor 3:9)

15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

Thank’s for pointing that out. We are saved through fire by a judgment of our works.

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Mat 7:1-3)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:10)

So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. (2 Cor 11:15)

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

**knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive recompense for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality. (Col 3:24-25) **

So, Paul is saying that some will pass through God’s fiery judgment like a man who barely escapes a burning building with his life.

 

[Reformed]

There is a difference of entering Heaven on the sole basis of Christ alone and our personal rewards for our works done in Christ. Please read the Scriptures again.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[Ronald_E]

Baptismal regeneration is the offiical Roman Catholic belief. But when you study the conversions found in the book of Acts, the pattern is quite different. Here is the bibilical testimony: The Apostle will proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to a crowd or individual. God the Holy Spirit quickens the elect to be able to spirituality hear the gospel, receive it, and believe the great good news of God for reconcilation to God, peace with God, adoption and becomes a child of God prior to partaking in water baptism. Thereafter, the converts immediately are baptized with water after convresion. Have you ever struggled with Acts 13:48 in regards to who are able to believe the gospel for conversion?

Acts 13:46-50

46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.

The Message of Salvation to All - Rom 10

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Please read Mark 1:9 “It happened in those days that jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John. On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.”
If this is how my Lord did it then it is good enough for me and my children.
I see the Holy Spirit and God the Father and God the Son all involved in His baptism.
It cannot be any clearer. I need not to attempt to convince anyone about baptism. If they cannot see it I will not be able to convince them.

 

[Reformed]

I think Roman Catholic theology misses the biblical truth of our union with Adam to our new union with Christ. Of course the big difference between biblical theology and Roman Catholic theology is the doctrine of justification. We are declared righteous at conversion on the basis of the righteousness of Christ alone. Our personal righteousness…growing in personal holiness is the transformation process done by the Spirit to make us more like Christ. However, our transformation is never the grounds for our justifcation before God. Please consider Romans chapters 3 and 4 for bibilcal insight and bibilcal truth. Please wrestle with the truth of salvation being past, present and future tenses in the process of salvation. Roman Catholic theology never really acknowledges the past tense of salvation merited by Christ alone.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [4] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [5] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. - Rom 3-4

 

[Reformed]

Please read Mark 1:9 “It happened in those days that jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John. On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.”
If this is how my Lord did it then it is good enough for me and my children.
I see the Holy Spirit and God the Father and God the Son all involved in His baptism.
It cannot be any clearer. I need not to attempt to convince anyone about baptism. If they cannot see it I will not be able to convince them.

Are you trying to say that Jesus needed to be born from above? Nobody is debating that Christians should be baptized. We are baptised as Christians as an act of obedience and love for God as adopted children of God. It is not the cause of our new birth. Even Jesus was baptised to fullfill the Scriptures. But Jesus did not get baptized for the Catholic teaching of baptismal regeneration.

Mark 1

John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. [1]

2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, [2]

“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare [3] the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”

4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The Baptism of Jesus
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; [4] with you I am well pleased.”

Please notice that there is a difference between John’s baptism and Jesus’ baptism by the Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 

[Ronald_E]

Are you trying to say that Jesus needed to be born from above? Nobody is debating that Christians should be baptized. We are baptised as Christians as an act of obedience and love for God as adopted children of God. It is not the cause of our new birth. Even Jesus was baptised to fullfill the Scriptures. But Jesus did not get baptized for the Catholic teaching of baptismal regeneration.

We are to be imitators of Christ. I did not bring Catholicism into this. I just gave you scripture reference. How you interpret it is your choice. If Jesus did it so will I.
You doth protest too much.

Mark 1

John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. [1]

2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, [2]

“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare [3] the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”

4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The Baptism of Jesus
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; [4] with you I am well pleased.”

Right there you have the Presence of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. I cannot ignore the Presence of the Mystery of the Kingdom Of God within this sacrament of Baptism.
An extremely important point that we must see is that Our Lord performed acts of kindness, forgiveness and miracles before He ever did any teaching.
When He taught in public He taught in parables. He interpreted the parables privately to His Apostles.

Please notice that there is a difference between John’s baptism and Jesus’ baptism by the Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

So you have baptism first and then the infusion of the Holy Spirit.
In between that you have His actions, followed by His teaching which explained why He acted as He did.
John 3:2 "He came to Jesus at night and said to him, 'Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.

 

[Reformed]

When He taught in public He taught in parables. He interpreted the parables privately to His Apostles.
.

Hey Ronald, do you any idea why Jesus spoke in parables? The answer can be found in the Scriptures. Jesus actually concealed spiritual truth to many and revealed spiritual truth to the Elect.

Luke 10:21

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will

 

[ryanoneil]

There is a difference of entering Heaven on the sole basis of Christ alone and our personal rewards for our works done in Christ. Please read the Scriptures again.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Using metaphors, Paul explains that those who do good will be saved, and those who do evil will be condemned (the metaphors Paul uses are gold, silver v. wood, hay). There is a clear difference between doing good which leads to salvation (v.14) and doing bad which leads to damnation (v.17). He is talking about salvation.

The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. Is there is a place, in your tradition, for a post-death punishment by fire before a person is saved?

 

[Ronald_E]

Hey Ronald, do you any idea why Jesus spoke in parables? The answer can be found in the Scriptures.

I know why.

Jesus actually concealed spiritual truth to many and revealed spiritual truth to the Elect.

First of all Ref, Mary was chosen to help create Jesus in the flesh and bring God into the world. Joseph was chosen to protect her and keep his mouth shut and just obey. Then you have John and his parents. Then you have the old woman in the temple when Jesus was taken there and she said that she could now die since she has witnessed the coming of her Lord. I think she also said that a pierce would also pierce Mary’s heart. Please correct me if I am wrong. Just returned home from work exhausted.
Then Jesus directly chose His apostles.
His apostles were then told to go out spread His Word.
They were directly chosen. After that I know there were 72 that He sent out without any visible support except what was on their backs. They performed miracles and spread His word.
It appears the elect are those who do not have to depend on anything in this life and are only dependent on God’s Love.
By that standard I have a long way to go. If we are not willing to give up everything that keeps us safe and comfortable then we are not part of the elect. Any attachment to this world prevents us from being the elect.

Luke 10:21

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will

The kingdom of God is with us now here on earth and we cannot expect to see it through the senses or our human understanding. We cannot keep the smallest feeling of attachment to any feeling associated with this world and think that we know the Truth of His Presence among us now.
The little children are open and see what the blind cannot see. The little children see differently and hear differently because of their openness and have given up everything that may contaminate their vision and understanding.

 

[Reformed]

Using metaphors, Paul explains that those who do good will be saved, and those who do evil will be condemned (the metaphors Paul uses are gold, silver v. wood, hay). There is a clear difference between doing good which leads to salvation (v.14) and doing bad which leads to damnation (v.17). He is talking about salvation.

The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. Is there is a place, in your tradition, for a post-death punishment by fire before a person is saved?

As regenerate Christians, we do both good and bad. Please read Romans 7. So, how much good do we have to do to merit salvation. And how much bad must we do to deserve the eternal wrath of God and eternal damnation? Does God grade us on a curve? I think Scripture testifies that perfect obedience to the Father’s will is required to enter Heaven. Did you know that Jesus called the disciples “evil”?

 

[Reformed]

I know why.

First of all Ref, Mary was chosen to help create Jesus in the flesh and bring God into the world. Joseph was chosen to protect her and keep his mouth shut and just obey. Then you have John and his parents. Then you have the old woman in the temple when Jesus was taken there and she said that she could now die since she has witnessed the coming of her Lord. I think she also said that a pierce would also pierce Mary’s heart. Please correct me if I am wrong. Just returned home from work exhausted.
Then Jesus directly chose His apostles.
His apostles were then told to go out spread His Word.
They were directly chosen. After that I know there were 72 that He sent out without any visible support except what was on their backs. They performed miracles and spread His word.
It appears the elect are those who do not have to depend on anything in this life and are only dependent on God’s Love.
By that standard I have a long way to go. If we are not willing to give up everything that keeps us safe and comfortable then we are not part of the elect. Any attachment to this world prevents us from being the elect.

Luke 10:21

The kingdom of God is with us now here on earth and we cannot expect to see it through the senses or our human understanding. We cannot keep the smallest feeling of attachment to any feeling associated with this world and think that we know the Truth of His Presence among us now.
The little children are open and see what the blind cannot see. The little children see differently and hear differently because of their openness and have given up everything that may contaminate their vision and understanding.

Here is why Jesus spoke in parables according to divine revelation:

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Sower
13:1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, [1] let him hear.”

The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[ryanoneil]

As regenerate Christians, we do both good and bad. Please read Romans 7. So, how much good do we have to do to merit salvation. And how much bad must we do to deserve the eternal wrath of God and eternal damnation? Does God grade us on a curve? I think Scripture testifies that perfect obedience to the Father’s will is required to enter Heaven. Did you know that Jesus called the disciples “evil”?

the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. (1 Cor 3:13)

Do you agree this verse is speaking of Judgment day?

I really am interested in your answer to my original question.

The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. Is there is a place, in your tradition, for a post-death punishment by fire before a person is saved?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This is a staple for the -]Roman/-] Catholic Christian. Phil 2:12 is always posted without Phil 2:13. It seems to me that Catholics want to leave out God in the process of transformation.

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This isn’t true. In fact I tend to post vs 13 without vs 12 more often than not.

PS Please stop with the “Roman” already. Catholic will suffice and doesn’t offend our Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren who hold to the very same Apostolic Faith. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[guanophore]

Can someone please quote the Catechism on this very issue!

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

 

[Reformed]

the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. (1 Cor 3:13)

Do you agree this verse is speaking of Judgment day?

I really am interested in your answer to my original question.

The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. Is there is a place, in your tradition, for a post-death punishment by fire before a person is saved?

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1 Cor 1

I think the verse that we are discussing is revealing that will be judged for rewards, but not for our salvation since Christ already merited our salvation by His perfect life, and also paid the price for all our sins at Calvary. I think the unbeliever will be judged for their sins and not for personal rewards since they are not in Christ. For the unbeliever, all of their righteous acts are like filty rags according to divine revelation.

We all must give an account for our lives to God. We will be judged for our motives and actions. However, for those who are in Christ, we are being judged for rewards because we know that “there is therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ”. God cannot punish those who have been justified through faith in Christ because God already poured out His wrath against sin (justice) on Christ on the cross as our substitute. However, those who remain in Adam and do not obey the gospel of Christ, God will punish them with His righteous and just wrath. I believe only Roman Catholicism teaches purgatory, correct? To be absent is be present with the Lord according to the Apostle Paul.

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming - 2 Thes 1
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from [2] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[guanophore]

That’s such an untrue statement.

No, Reformed. What Mickey stated is true. It is your understanding of this that is flawed.

How do you interpert Matthew 16 in regards to apostolic succession?

All of the Apostolic Churches interpret it the same way.

Even Catholics do not know what consists of the actual deposit of faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Traditiion.

The ignorance of some Catholics changes nothing of what the Church teaches.

Furthermore, the Sacred Tradition is not 'Roman" as you assert. The Sacred Tradition is shared by the Catholic and Orthodox communions. It was this way before the schism in 1054, and since.

Therefore, you being Orthodox, how do you know what consists of the actual contents and deposit of Faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition. How about providing me a link to the complete deposit of faith of Orthodox Sacred Tradition?

If you understood what sacred tradition was, you would not ask such a ridiculous question. This is like saying " please post a complete list of all that Jesus began to do and teach from the wedding in Cana till the day he was taken up".

 

[Reformed]

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

…

I was asking for the Catechism answer on baptismal regeneration and not the topic of justification. I don’ think we are disucssing justification, are we?

 

[Reformed]

This isn’t true. In fact I tend to post vs 13 without vs 12 more often than not.

PS Please stop with the “Roman” already. Catholic will suffice and doesn’t offend our Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren who hold to the very same Apostolic Faith. Thank you for your consideration.

I don’t mean to offend you when I add the word Roman. I think you are manipulating my posting when you cross out the word Roman. I also think that it is against CAF rules by doing that. As we all know, Protestants are catholics, but not Roman Catholics. Therefore, a distinction needs to be made between Protestants as being catholic, and Roman Catholics as being catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Are we saved by the righteousness of Christ alone as compared to personal good works done in Christ?

Your formulation sets these against one another erroneously. Yes, we are saved by grace, through faith. However, the grace and the faith are not separated from the works of righteousness produced by both. We are saved by grace, through faith FOR these works. It is not either /or but all of them together.

I think separating things that were meant to be together is a fruit of the reformation.

 

[Reformed]

Your formulation sets these against one another erroneously. Yes, we are saved by grace, through faith. However, the grace and the faith are not separated from the works of righteousness produced by both. We are saved by grace, through faith FOR these works. It is not either /or but all of them together.

I think separating things that were meant to be together is a fruit of the reformation.

Please try to participate in the Bible Study and comment on the Bible passage that we are on. Here is the passage that we are discussing. The Scriptures that we are on sure seems to go against your view that you posted above.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1 Cor 1

There are two forms of righteousness. One complete and sufficent form of righteoness is from above. It is an alien righteousness that is completely seperate and apart for ourselves. It is called the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We receive this perfect and complete righteousness through faith in Christ. It is our only basis of justification before God. It is an insult to God to think that the alien righteousness of God is not sufficient to pay for all of your sins, and merit your way to Heaven because it is a glorious work of God. When we receive this perfect righteousness from above, we are able to give God all the glory for saving wretched sinners like me and you.

The other righteousness is self-righteousness… It comes in forms of religious righteousness, and religious acts. This kind of religious righteousness always gives mankind a reason to boast in the flesh before God and man.

Check on the first section in Romans 10 for additonal nsight and bibilical light.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes