real presence

[cyprian]

ppcpilot:

But don’t forget some Protestants believe in the Real Presence…Lutherans, for one.

Believe , some may indeed but the Lutheran church does not believe in trans…

Here is something to chew on. Jesus didn’t say that those who did not eat his flesh and blood would not go to heaven but he did say that you would have life in you and you would be raised up on the last day.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you” Thinking about this, it came to me that things were just as deplorable spiritually then as they are now, and maybe our Lord was saying that without this food, that had the power to transform, people would be bereft of life and dead spiritually(miserable?) Protestants or non-Cath’s I think sometimes think that we Cath’s are holding this over them as a prerequisite for salvation instead of a definitive means. I could be wrong but it came to me in prayer.

God Bless
Peace and Love
“The problem with Christiananity(Cath) is not that it has been tried and found wonting, it is that it hasn’t been tried.”
-G.K. Chesterton

 

[RobedWithLight]

Mickey:

Perhaps all our protestant brethren can chime in on this one. After reading the Gospel of John, how can anyone possibly interpret those passages as meaning anything other than the Catholic and Orthodox sacrament of the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist?

There can be no doubt about it.

Just count how many times John’s gospel quoted Jesus assert that He Himself **is ** the Bread. This plainly indicates emphasis that clearly suggests that Jesus’ body is indeed truly Bread.

Gerry

 

[cyprian]

RobedWithLight:

There can be no doubt about it.

Just count how many times John’s gospel quoted Jesus assert that He Himself **is **the Bread. This plainly indicates emphasis that clearly suggests that Jesus’ body is indeed truly Bread.

Gerry

Oh, you mean that the bread is actually, substantially Jesus’ Body How petty of me

Peace and Love

 

[Maccabees]

ppcpilot:

But don’t forget some Protestants believe in the Real Presence…Lutherans, for one.

Thats why the term real presence is an inadequate term to describe catholic teaching on the Eucharist it was used by the reformers to differentiate their view on the Eucharist from the Anabaptist.

Thus the term real presence is really an protestant coined term and if we leave out definition of the Eucharist as such it could be interpreted not only catholic but Lutheran or Calvinist out terminology is Transubstantiation. But if your talking to a Baptist, Evangelical or non-denom type the term Real Presence can be used as a starting point in dialogue. It is important to Remeber that Lutherans and Calvinst deny the sacrificicial nature of the mass that has unanimous proclaied by the church from the didache till Vatican 2. Lutherans believe the bread and wine are with the body and blood christ. Calvinist and their related brethren the Presbyterians beleive in a spiritual presence of Christ but not the BODY and Blood of Christ in the bread and wine we catholics believe the bread and wine become the body and blood of our Lord. We believe in the “is”. “This is my body” “This is my blood”
The other churches which believe in the Real Presence have watered down the is and have taken away the sacrificial nature of the mass.

 

[Maccabees]

cyprian:

Believe , some may indeed but the Lutheran church does not believe in trans…

Here is something to chew on. Jesus didn’t say that those who did not eat his flesh and blood would not go to heaven but he did say that you would have life in you and you would be raised up on the last day.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you” Thinking about this, it came to me that things were just as deplorable spiritually then as they are now, and maybe our Lord was saying that without this food, that had the power to transform, people would be bereft of life and dead spiritually(miserable?) Protestants or non-Cath’s I think sometimes think that we Cath’s are holding this over them as a prerequisite for salvation instead of a definitive means. I could be wrong but it came to me in prayer.

God Bless
Peace and Love
“The problem with Christiananity(Cath) is not that it has been tried and found wonting, it is that it hasn’t been tried.”
-G.K. Chesterton

So are you saying they won’t be raised on the last day?

 

[cyprian]

Maccabees:

So are you saying they won’t be raised on the last day?

No, but the ones that do partake (membership in good standing , of course) are garanteed, those that do not struggle with the world and what God is trying to do in their hearts. We know that God wills the salvation of all men and that every man/ woman hears the symphony of heaven calling but search for this sweet music in the things of this world. Eucharist gives grace which enables those who receive to separate and see more clearly. Sorry never meant to give that impression and thought I was clear in saying so. That those who did recieve would indeed be raised. Those who don’t (aren’t using this means,or partaking) it’s harder to pull out of the swirl of garbage. I meant more about the misery of us all when we don’t use the means, when we are left to our own devices in trying to ascend or traverse the great void.

Peace and Love

 

[cyprian]

Maccabees (one of my fav books in the Bible by the way),

My favorite quote regarding this is when Augustine said
“Too late have I loved Thee, O Beauty ever ancient ever new
too late have I loved Thee, for behold Thou wert within, and I without
and there did I seek Thee
I, unlovely, rushed heedlessly among the things of beauty which Thou madest”

We seek God outside of ourselves not answering the call within ourselves

 

[SPOKENWORD]

“After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66)

I wonder if it is coincidence that this passage is chapter 6 verse 66.

Hi Mickey ,We as christians do not believe in superstition. Maybe they had indegestion? God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

It cannot be “proven” in the physical sense, if that is what you mean. The atheists I’ve been clubbing it out with on other threads make the same statement about the existence of God.

I offer the same answer. Isn’t even the possibility that it is true worth more than a casual examination? Isn’t it such an incredible possibility that it would inspire an earnest and objective search of the truth? I spent many years as a Catholic indifferent to the Eucharist until I realized what it was - simply the greatest gift left by Jesus to His followers. Then I couldn’t find enough materials to study on the subject to satisfy my appetite for the truth.

Research the Greek in John 6, the three Gospel accounts, I Cor. 10:16-18 and I Cor 11:23-31 and read the writings of the early fathers to see what believers in the first, second and third centuries believed. Do these things and pray earnestly to the Holy Spirit for guidance. Forget Catholic and Protestant for the moment and do these things. If you do and you come away believing as you do now, then you are justified in asking for proof.

The problem is that those who are absolutely opposed to the Catholic Church and who have much invested in a Reformed theology simply cannot accept the Church’s position on this because the alternative is unthinkable. I’m not being critical. I really do understand this dilema. It is a difficult position for a Reformed Protestant to be faced with the possibility that the Catholic Church might be correct on this matter.

I have Protestant friends who can accept that Mary might intercede for us, that there might be some kind final purging (purgatory) before entering God’s presence, or that reading the lives of saints can inspire a believer. However, they refuse to even consider Transubstantiation. Why? I believe it is because ackowledging the possibility of the other doctrines doesn’t change anything. But, to recognize that Transubstantiation might be true and that Jesus might really want us to partake of Him in the Eucharist, then they must approach the Catholic Church.

A well studied friend once told me that all the renouned Protestant theologians have discredited the Catholic interpretation of John 6. My response was - of course they did. What was the alternative? Conversion?

Hi Jim , Like I tell many catholics,IF I have Jesus Christ living in me body and soul why would I be looking elsewhere? Doesnt make any sense? God Bless

 

[WhatIf]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Jim , Like I tell many catholics,IF I have Jesus Christ living in me body and soul why would I be looking elsewhere? Doesnt make any sense? God Bless

Why do you read The Word of God, when he is living within you?

 

[WhatIf]

SPOKENWORD said “Hi Jim , Like I tell many catholics,IF I have Jesus Christ living in me body and soul why would I be looking elsewhere? Doesnt make any sense? God Bless”

I would also like to suggest this reason which is given in the Bible. It is 1 Cor 11:26
26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So, why not receive the Eucharist for this reason? To proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. The Bible says to eat this bread and drink the cup.

Jesus is The Word, yet you seek Him in reading The Word of God. Why, if He lives in you and you in Him? Why read the Bible when The Word lives in you?

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey ,We as christians do not believe in superstition. Maybe they had indegestion? God Bless

Come on Bro …they stopped following Jesus because they knew he meant what he had said literally, so did the Jews… Jesus even made it a make or break with the 12 apostles when he asked if they wanted to leave too. Doesn’t that sort of sound like a my way or the highway to you?

It wasn’t superstition OR indigestion…like it or not, understand it or not, with God all things are posssible. Only the apostles had the guts and faith to believe.
This is one of THE most scripturally sound doctrines of the Catholic Church and one of the very best reasons to be Catholic. I wouildn’t trade this miracle for anything…

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey ,We as christians do not believe in superstition. Maybe they had indegestion? God Bless

Hi Spokenword. I’m sorry you mistook my humor for superstition. See church militant’s post # 32. God Bless.

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Jim , Like I tell many catholics,IF I have Jesus Christ living in me body and soul why would I be looking elsewhere? Doesnt make any sense? God Bless

Hello . Receipt of the Eucharist is not required to have Jesus in one’s heart - they are not mutually exclusive. I do not pretend to understand why Jesus did what He did at the last supper when He instituted the Eucharist. My point is that simply rejecting Transubstantiation out of hand without giving it a thorough study and consideration, given its profound nature, and then telling those who do believe it that they are wrong, is…well…risky.

Think of it, if what the Catholic Church teaches is true, you are not only missing an incredible gift yourself, but you are encouraging others to stay away from the table of the Lord. Consider the following quote from Ignatius of Antioch:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (*Letter to the Smyrnaeans *6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110])

This letter, though not Scripture, is from a Bishop who was alive during the life of John the Apostle and who studied under John. This gives a clear indication of what was believed by the successors to the Apostles and the early Church within a generation of those same Apostles. There are many such writings from the early Church.

If you choose to ignore this type of evidence for your own purposes, well, that’s your choice, but please don’t tell Catholics that they are wrong and don’t understand Scripture unless you have done the research yourself. That’s all.

BTW - thanks for your honest (name removed by moderator)ut.

Blessings

 

[SPOKENWORD]

WhatIf:

Why do you read The Word of God, when he is living within you?

We read the Word because it is spiritual food. We gain wisdom and knowledge and learn what Gods will is in our life. Reading the word is like drawing from streams of living waters. He who comes to Me will never thirst,Jesus said; God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

We read the Word because it is spiritual food.

You answered your own question.

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

We read the Word because it is spiritual food. We gain wisdom and knowledge and learn what Gods will is in our life. Reading the word is like drawing from streams of living waters. He who comes to Me will never thirst,Jesus said; God Bless

So true spokenword! Now Imagine reading The Word **AND **receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ through the Eucharist. It’s indescribable!

p.s–Just curious. How do you justify the rejection of the doctrine of The Real Presence after reading the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John? (not mention the Gospel of John chapter six and multiple other Biblical references of course).

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

So true spokenword! Now Imagine reading The Word **AND **receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ through the Eucharist. It’s indescribable!

p.s–Just curious. How do you justify the rejection of the doctrine of The Real Presence after reading the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John? (not mention the Gospel of John chapter six and multiple other Biblical references of course).

HI Mickey, If you eat the Word,then you have Christ in you. Jesus is the Word made Flesh God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

HI Mickey, If you eat the Word,then you have Christ in you. Jesus is the Word made Flesh God Bless

I agree. Jesus is The Word made flesh and we physically and spiritually receive Him through Scriptures and the Eucharist. Excuse my ignorance but you aren’t saying to eat the pages of the Bible are you? I truly don’t say that to offend you–we read the Word, accept the Word, and live the Word. Jesus, The Word, also tells us that His Body is real food indeed and His Blood is real drink indeed. I’m just confused as to where you are coming from.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

I agree. Jesus is The Word made flesh and we physically and spiritually receive Him through Scriptures and the Eucharist. Excuse my ignorance but you aren’t saying to eat the pages of the Bible are you? I truly don’t say that to offend you–we read the Word, accept the Word, and live the Word. Jesus, The Word, also tells us that His Body is real food indeed and His Blood is real drink indeed. I’m just confused as to where you are coming from.

Hi Mickey, I understand,of course you know where confusion comes from? Thats why when it comes to the mysteries of God we will never see the full picture. We could argue till kingdom come about the spiritual things of God. Spiritual things can only be seen with spir itual eyes.God Bless