real presence

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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Mickey, I understand,of course you know where confusion comes from? :eek: Thats why when it comes to the mysteries of God we will never see the full picture. We could argue till kingdom come about the spiritual things of God. Spiritual things can only be seen with spir :confused: itual eyes.God Bless
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God created physical matter also. The physical matter of bread and wine are changed by the Grace of God as a bridge for our limited understanding. That being said, I will agree to disagree with you. But you did say that you were one confession away, so hang in there SPOKENWORD!🙂

P.S–I’m afraid to use the confused icon now!
 
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SPOKENWORD:
We read the Word because it is spiritual food. We gain wisdom and knowledge and learn what Gods will is in our life. Reading the word is like drawing from streams of living waters. He who comes to Me will never thirst,Jesus said; 👍 God Bless
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IF the Word of God is spiritual food, then why don’t you view the Eucharist as spiritual food and then ok instead of arguing that we, as Catholics, are searching for something by receiving it?
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Mickey, I understand,of course you know where confusion comes from? :eek: Thats why when it comes to the mysteries of God we will never see the full picture. We could argue till kingdom come about the spiritual things of God. Spiritual things can only be seen with spir :confused: itual eyes.God Bless
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Hello Spoken, you still haven’t addressed my challenge to look into the evidence. You keep referring to Transubstantiation as a spiritual “mystery” as though there is no good evidence to support it. If what you are basically saying by ignoring my comments is that the matter is not worth looking into, then come right out and say it. If you have looked into it in depth and reject the evidence, then say that as well (but with this crowd, be prepared to support your rejection:D). If you have rejected it simply because that is the position Protestant denominations take, then say so. If there is another reason, please enlighten me.

I’m not trying to convince you personally that Transubstantiation is true. I am simply challenging you to give the evidence serious consideration commensurate with its possibilities before telling Catholics that they are wrong.

Blessings
 
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WhatIf:
IF the Word of God is spiritual food, then why don’t you view the Eucharist as spiritual food and then ok instead of arguing that we, as Catholics, are searching for something by receiving it?
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Hi What If, Communion is spiritual food. 👍 God Bless
 
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JimO:
Hello Spoken, you still haven’t addressed my challenge to look into the evidence. You keep referring to Transubstantiation as a spiritual “mystery” as though there is no good evidence to support it. If what you are basically saying by ignoring my comments is that the matter is not worth looking into, then come right out and say it. If you have looked into it in depth and reject the evidence, then say that as well (but with this crowd, be prepared to support your rejection:D). If you have rejected it simply because that is the position Protestant denominations take, then say so. If there is another reason, please enlighten me.

I’m not trying to convince you personally that Transubstantiation is true. I am simply challenging you to give the evidence serious consideration commensurate with its possibilities before telling Catholics that they are wrong.

Blessings
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Hi JimO. I think we both can agree it is spiritual food.You as a catholic cannot see the flesh and blood but you believe when you recieve Him He enters in you.I believe that Jesus is in Me already. Communion brings me to the foot of the cross and reinacts what He went through and allows me to join with His sufferings. Our understanding is different but the end results are we joined together with Christ. 👍 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi JimO. I think we both can agree it is spiritual food.You as a catholic cannot see the flesh and blood but you believe when you recieve Him He enters in you.I believe that Jesus is in Me already. Communion brings me to the foot of the cross and reinacts what He went through and allows me to join with His sufferings. Our understanding is different but the end results are we joined together with Christ. 👍 God Bless
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I too believe that because I am a temple of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is present in me, that Jesus is present in me. It’s not that we believe that Christ only enters when we receive Him in the Eucharist. As I said before, they aren’t mutually exclusive.

It is true that I cannot see human flesh and human blood in the consecrated host with my physical eyes, but I believe that is, indeed, what it is because of the evidence in Scripture, the writings of the early Fathers and the teachings of the RCC. However, in the same way, you cannot show me the flesh and blood of Jesus inside you. You stated earlier, “All you have to do is prove it to me.” What kind of proof are you looking for?

Blessings
 
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JimO:
I too believe that because I am a temple of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is present in me, that Jesus is present in me. It’s not that we believe that Christ only enters when we receive Him in the Eucharist. As I said before, they aren’t mutually exclusive.

It is true that I cannot see human flesh and human blood in the consecrated host with my physical eyes, but I believe that is, indeed, what it is because of the evidence in Scripture, the writings of the early Fathers and the teachings of the RCC. However, in the same way, you cannot show me the flesh and blood of Jesus inside you. You stated earlier, “All you have to do is prove it to me.” What kind of proof are you looking for?

Blessings
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HI Jimo, The same proof that you are looking from me. 😃 It cannot be proven by the human eyes,only spiritual eyes. Like I tell you I recieve the Word into Me, and the Word is made Flesh because Jesus is the Word.So Jesus Flesh is in me though I do not see it. 😉 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
HI Jimo, The same proof that you are looking from me. 😃 It cannot be proven by the human eyes,only spiritual eyes.
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I’m not looking for proof from you because the Bible does speak of all believers being temples of the Holy Spirit; therefore, we have Christ within us. My point is that you are refusing the same type of “proof” which is the evidence in Scripture, etc. that Transubstatiation is indeed true in the RCC and that Jesus intended for us to partake of Him in the Eucharist as a regular part of our spiritual journey.
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SPOKENWORD:
Like I tell you I recieve the Word into Me, and the Word is made Flesh because Jesus is the Word.So Jesus Flesh is in me though I do not see it.
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When Scripture says that the “Word was made flesh” and then “and dwelt among us”, it is referring to the Incarnation of Jesus into flesh as a human. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that by reading the Word of God (Scripture) that the Word enters your physical body and becomes the “flesh” of Jesus inside your own physical flesh?

I hope that isn’t what you are saying, because, if so, that is inconsistent with Scripture.
 
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JimO:
I’m not looking for proof from you because the Bible does speak of all believers being temples of the Holy Spirit; therefore, we have Christ within us. My point is that you are refusing the same type of “proof” which is the evidence in Scripture, etc. that Transubstatiation is indeed true in the RCC and that Jesus intended for us to partake of Him in the Eucharist as a regular part of our spiritual journey.

When Scripture says that the “Word was made flesh” and then “and dwelt among us”, it is referring to the Incarnation of Jesus into flesh as a human. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that by reading the Word of God (Scripture) that the Word enters your physical body and becomes the “flesh” of Jesus inside your own physical flesh?

I hope that isn’t what you are saying, because, if so, that is inconsistent with Scripture.
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You see now we are looking in the natural arent we? Im talking supernaturally.Yes, If you do take the Word and let it digest in your body you will be like Christ. :confused: God Bless.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Im talking supernaturally.
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I’m sorry Spokenword, you are still avoiding the primary point of all my posts.

(1) You haven’t acknowledged that you have or have not examined the body of evidence supporting the RCC’s teaching on Transubstantiation. Therefore, I have to assume you have not.

(2) Assuming you have not, you seem to have made a conscience decision to reject the teaching (I believe on another thread you indicated you used to be RCC). The fact that you won’t address the “evidence” presented to you on this thread is indicative of you having made a conscience decision.

(3) Your rejection must be based on something, such as: (a) that is simply what your denomination teaches; (b) you don’t want to because it means admitting that the RCC is correct on a central issue; (c) you are comfortable with your current belief; etc. I could list others possibilities, but I don’t want to be offensive. I am genuinely interested.

Your brief responses have avoided the primary and significant point I am making here. I am truly interested in your reason. Certainly, after all the posts on this and other threads, you cannot claim ignorance to the possibility that the RCC’s teaching is true.

Blessings
 
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JimO:
I’m sorry Spokenword, you are still avoiding the primary point of all my posts.

(1) You haven’t acknowledged that you have or have not examined the body of evidence supporting the RCC’s teaching on Transubstantiation. Therefore, I have to assume you have not.

(2) Assuming you have not, you seem to have made a conscience decision to reject the teaching (I believe on another thread you indicated you used to be RCC). The fact that you won’t address the “evidence” presented to you on this thread is indicative of you having made a conscience decision.

(3) Your rejection must be based on something, such as: (a) that is simply what your denomination teaches; (b) you don’t want to because it means admitting that the RCC is correct on a central issue; (c) you are comfortable with your current belief; etc. I could list others possibilities, but I don’t want to be offensive. I am genuinely interested.

Your brief responses have avoided the primary and significant point I am making here. I am truly interested in your reason. Certainly, after all the posts on this and other threads, you cannot claim ignorance to the possibility that the RCC’s teaching is true.

Blessings
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Hi Jimo. I once believed as you did because that is what I was taught. This was a battle for me .It was what kept me in the Rcc.I could not leave because I believed as you did.I began to spend much time in reading the bible and God began to speak to my heart on this issue. I spent time before the Blessed Sacrament and through much prayer God spoke to my heart. He said to Me why are you searching for where I am not? Dont you know that I am living inside of you. Dont you know I am available to all christians who ask for Me to come in. I left that day with tears in my eyes but I left with a spirit of Gods peace.I know deep in my heart that His supernatural body lives in me because I know who I am in Christ and I know now who I was.I respect what you believe and I also believe Christ also lives in you. Christ come to us in many ways not just the Eucharist. 😉 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
… I respect what you believe and I also believe Christ also lives in you. Christ come to us in many ways not just the Eucharist. 😉 God Bless
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I agree with you, but why do you reject one of the ways that Christ comes to us. Why reject the Eucharist? Maybe you felt sadness for a very serious reason. Maybe you never should’ve left the Eucharist behind. Maybe instead you needed to grow spiritually because of poor catechesis in the Catholic Church. Leaving the Church may have been part of God’s plan for you. Who can say, but how certain are you that it isn’t just a part of your journey and that you are not suppose to return to the Catholic Church to help it. Perhaps you have lived and learned some very valuable things, but I wonder if that sadness that you felt was because you should not have left the Eucharist behind. None of my business. You and God will work this one out, but I hope you still listen and haven’t let any hatred toward Catholic cause you to become deaf on some things. We all let pride get in the way, myself included.
 
Spoken,

I am reading this thread for the first time just now. I think I am objective and may lend a useful thought. Spoken, probably you don’t think you have avoided JimO’s queries. I think you have. If you read
John6:51 - 68 and
Matthew 26: 26 - 28…then would you please answer this question? A “yes” or ‘No’ is sufficient.

Do you agree that Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically?

At the Last Supper was Jesus just kidding around? He said, as is said during the Consecration, This is My body also This is My blood. What do you say to those short exclamatory statements?

Why were you in front of the Blessed Sacrament? That is the same as a Eucharist.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
He said to Me why are you searching for where I am not?
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Was that really the Holy Spirit speaking to your heart. Sometimes it is difficult to discern. The evil one is very cunning.😦
 
I think when it comes to the Real Presence it is instructive to look at the feast of Passover, as it can can considered a “type” or foreshadowing of Christ’s crucifixion.

First, and most obvious is the Paschal lamb to be sacrificed. From the beginning of the Gospels, John the Baptist proclaims Our Lord as the “Lamb of God (who takes away the sin of the world)”. Thus the Paschal lamb foreshadows Christ and his sacrifice.

Now, what happened to the Paschal Lamb? It was immolated and sacrificed to God…just as our Lord was immolated and sacrificed himself to the Father.

Next, the blood of the lamb was sprinkled on the doorpost of the houses, so that the faithful would be saved from death (death would pass over them)…just as the blood of our Lord was shed and “sprinkled” on the Cross, so that we would be saved from the death of sin.

Now, what did God command be done to the Paschal lamb? He commanded that it’s flesh be eaten…just as Our Lord Jesus Christ left us his flesh to be eaten in the Blessed Sacrament.

For my part, taking what has been mentioned in previous posts in addition to my post, it seems pretty clear the Jesus is really and truly present in the Eucharist. To suggest otherwise requires a twisting of Sacred Scripture to try to make it not say what it clearly says.
 
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Exporter:
Spoken,

I am reading this thread for the first time just now. I think I am objective and may lend a useful thought. Spoken, probably you don’t think you have avoided JimO’s queries. I think you have. If you read
John6:51 - 68 and
Matthew 26: 26 - 28…then would you please answer this question? A “yes” or ‘No’ is sufficient.

Do you agree that Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically?

At the Last Supper was Jesus just kidding around? He said, as is said during the Consecration, This is My body also This is My blood. What do you say to those short exclamatory statements?

Why were you in front of the Blessed Sacrament? That is the same as a Eucharist.
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Hi Exporter,Yes I do believe Jesus words were of the spirit.Jesus knew the Jewish law and would not go against it. :confused: God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Exporter,Yes I do believe Jesus words were of the spirit.Jesus knew the Jewish law and would not go against it. :confused: God Bless
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Spoken, of course Christ was speaking spiritually. However, speaking spiritually does not mean speaking symbolically or metaphorically…they are very different things (not all metaphors are spiritual; not all spiritual things are metaphors). One can speak spiritually and literally.
 
:confused:
Scott Waddell:
…I am more inclined to believe the Catholic version is true because the naysayers who always bang the drum for biblical perspicuity give us reams of pages of tortured analysis all in a tragicomic attempt to show that the Catholic posistion is not even possible. Why? I have never seen are argument suggesting any other reason than simply because it is Catholic and therefore, must be incorrect.
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That is very well put. I think there is something very telling about how eager some are to disprove Catholic doctrine. One way or another, the Church is defining their belief.

What is even more “tragicomic” is when you get reams of patristic quotes which supposedly disprove the Catholic interpretation. In a recent debate about the real presence, I had someone use isolated quotes from St. Ambrose and St. John Chrysostom (two very eloquent defenders of the real presence) to prove to me that the Catholic belief was wrong. :rotfl:

They were using the quotes to make some foundational argument against the Church in general. When I provided some quotes from those two fathers about the Eucharist itself, they saw nothing illogical about using them to support their case. I just don’t get how people’s minds work sometimes. :confused:
 
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