Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

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archangel04 said:
I see you have sources, but what does the Church say about the Mass? Is our
“new mass” less then the TLM?
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NO! The Mass is the Mass. There is only one Mass.

The new Mass, as it is commonly celebrated, is problematic. This is because it is too often celebrated in a way not in keeping with Catholic tradition.

Please do not misconstrue what I am saying. I am being very careful with wording. The new Mass is THE MASS.

It is commonly celebrated in a way that is… problematic.
 
Adeodatus said:
Wait. So in your mind a Mass where all the communicants kneel and receive the Lord on the tongue from a priest in the midst of reverence isn’t objectively superior to one where the Eucharist is being passed out like tokens by women in pantsuits to the sound of 60’s protestant tunes? :confused:
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😃
 
ProVobis said:
Bishop, you keep spreading this falsehood. You need to read the original Latin. You just read an error-filled translation. No way, no how was the Tridentine Missal a new rite, such as the Trent canon anathematized anyone for creating.

…
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This is from the site papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm. I have no reason to believe that their translation is inaccurate. Why do you say so?

**This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.

**

If, as you insist, this is an inaccurate translation, can you possibly provide me–and the other readers of this site–with the authentic Latin text of this passage?

I shall await with interest.
 
bpbasilphx said:
If, as you insist, this is an inaccurate translation, can you possibly provide me–and the other readers of this site–with the authentic Latin text of this passage?

I shall await with interest.
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It’s been posted before by another posted over several posts. You either ignored it or choose to deny it. I’d search for it in the archives but how do I know you’ll read it? I don’t want to waste my time if you’re intent on discrediting everything that’s posted favorably on the EF.
 
cathguy said:
This, sadly, is a very serious misconception that is a) outside the scope of this discussion, and b) widely held.

First, you are not reading carefully in that you skipped this key clause in my post: the new Mass as commonly celebrated is objectively inferior. I hope you understand the incredible importance of this clause, which I included intentionally.

I would suggest the following books to get you started.

Michael Davies… anything he has written, but especially “Pope Paul’s New Mass” which is volume three of his Liturgical Revolution.

I would read Sacred Then Sacred Now by Dr. Thomas Woods, who also believes that the old Mass is superior in every way to the new, and is a very faithful Catholic with a TV show on EWTN.

I would take into account traditional Catholic teaching on the issue.

“The value of the Mass is dependent on the greater or lesser holiness of the reigning pope, the bishops, and the clergy throughout the world.” Not all Masses are equal.

This is very new to you I am sure. But what you have said is fundamentally wrong.

Peace and God love you!
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NO Catholic sacrificial liturgy is “objectively superior” to ANY other as defined by the Church. For that to be possible it would necessarily require the Church to foist some “objectively inferior” sacrificial liturgies upon us and She does not work this way.

You may not agree with this but you would be mistaken to hold such a view. Until you come to grips with the fact it’s likely to cause you some consternation.

Now if you want to discuss HOW different sacrificial liturgies are actually celebrated I would be happy to do that but that’s an entirely different subject.
 
Why I like and prefer the tridentine mass to the novus ordo:.

1.- Everything the saints have ever written about the mass is about the traditional latin mass — why? That’s the one they knew. Even our most recent saints, such as Fr. Escriva the Balaguer where raised in the traditional mass even if they were alive during the times of the Novus Ordo.

2.- It has kept the church united and alive for centuries.

3.- In these times in which liturgical abuses seem to be frequent, the tridentine mass is a guarantee against some of those abuses and controversies.

4.- It’s theologically more pure in its details.

5.- The role of the priest inspires more respect. Which is particularly important in our time in which priesthood has been maligned in many ways.

6.- St Michael’s Prayer by Leo XIII is still said after tridentine masses. We need that more now than ever.

7.- The prayers and the absolutions given within the mass reminds intensely how unworthy we are of communion, and that grace is a free and very generous gift from God.

8.- There is more emphasis in the sacrificial nature of the mass. Which is the whole point.

9.- It’s in latin. Yes, I know, that’s kind of a given. Still, if I’m ever away in a place where I don’t speak the language, the latin mass will allow me to participate as if that mass was being said a few blocks away from my apartment. Plus, it’s the official language of the Church so that reminds us that mass isn’t a private thing we do in our own local chapel, but a public act being done in communion with all of the Church in Heaven and in Earth.

10.- You spend a lot more time on your knees. Which is just the right way to be in Calvary.
 
mick321 said:
OK. Give some reasons why you love THOSE liturgies.
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As I said like both the OF and the EF the Eastern Divine Liturgies give me a different perspective of the Paschal Mystery.

The huge amount of chanting by the laity during the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom does a remarkable job of lifting ones’ spirits where it truly does feel like Heaven on Earth.

I like the externals as well – the incense, the chanted readings the different processions, etc.

I like the fact that they are in vernacular – as they always have been.
 
j_o_r_g_e said:
Why I like and prefer the tridentine mass to the novus ordo:.

1.- Everything the saints have ever written about the mass is about the traditional latin mass — why? That’s the one they knew. Even our most recent saints, such as Fr. Escriva the Balaguer where raised in the traditional mass even if they were alive during the times of the Novus Ordo.

2.- It has kept the church united and alive for centuries.

3.- In these times in which liturgical abuses seem to be frequent, the tridentine mass is a guarantee against some of those abuses and controversies.

4.- It’s theologically more pure in its details.

5.- The role of the priest inspires more respect. Which is particularly important in our time in which priesthood has been maligned in many ways.

6.- St Michael’s Prayer by Leo XIII is still said after tridentine masses. We need that more now than ever.

7.- The prayers and the absolutions given within the mass reminds intensely how unworthy we are of communion, and that grace is a free and very generous gift from God.

8.- There is more emphasis in the sacrificial nature of the mass. Which is the whole point.

9.- It’s in latin. Yes, I know, that’s kind of a given. Still, if I’m ever away in a place where I don’t speak the language, the latin mass will allow me to participate as if that mass was being said a few blocks away from my apartment. Plus, it’s the official language of the Church so that reminds us that mass isn’t a private thing we do in our own local chapel, but a public act being done in communion with all of the Church in Heaven and in Earth.

10.- You spend a lot more time on your knees. Which is just the right way to be in Calvary.
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Most everything you listed above amounts to nothing more than personal opinion or preference. 🤷
 
\3.- In these times in which liturgical abuses seem to be frequent, the tridentine mass is a guarantee against some of those abuses and controversies.\

**I could give an answer to all your points, but I will limit myself to this one.

There were frequent liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass, too. But they were of another kind than are seen today.**
 
Jane11 said:
So where are these liturgies and in what language were they spoken?
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The Liturgy of St. James is, I believe, the most frequently used of the Syriac Tradition, including Syriac Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, and Syro-Malankar Catholics of India.

There is a Byzantine St. James that is used occasionally on St. James day on 23 October and the Sunday after Christims in Byzantine Churches.

St. Mark is prinicipally the Alexandrine tradition, though there is a Byzantine St. Mark, too.

Believe it or not, the Roman Rite (in either form) is NOT the only Eucharistic Liturgy of the Catholic Church.
 
ProVobis said:
It’s been posted before by another posted over several posts. You either ignored it or choose to deny it. I’d search for it in the archives but how do I know you’ll read it? I don’t want to waste my time if you’re intent on discrediting everything that’s posted favorably on the EF.
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Thank you for the links.

And can you tell me what I’ve said AGAINST the Extraordinary Form?

I’ve never said ANYTHING against the Extraordinary Form.

I have, however, posted against the NOTION that implies that the EF–or any other authorized rite–is somehow the superior one.
 
bpbasilphx said:
This is from the site papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm. I have no reason to believe that their translation is inaccurate. Why do you say so?

**This new rite alone **is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.

If, as you insist, this is an inaccurate translation, can you possibly provide me–and the other readers of this site–with the authentic Latin text of this passage?

I shall await with interest.
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I am linking you (generic you) to a post from the moderator. It’s not more than 2 wks. old & it was precipitated by you & the others that hang around the Traditional forum solely for the sake of arguing & disrupting.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=410783

Do you consider yourselves guardians of the Eastern Rites & the Novus Ordo?? Are you here to keep an eye on us HERETICS in case we might actually say that we believe the blending of the clergy & the laity has been very harmful to the Church & the priesthood.

Because we might point out that the busy-BUSYNESS of the EEM’s, the Lectors, the Greeters is disruptive. For heaven’s sake…I was greeted by God when I entered His Home, before these people decided that they must be present in the “gathering space” to slap the backs of & grin at everyone who enters. Good Lord, I, for one, am trying to leave the daily problems & triumphs that mark the days behind… & quiet my mind i& heart n order to actually hear what God is saying. I can visit with my friends & neighbors over donuts after Mass!!

As I watch families “bring up the gifts”, I’m acutely aware that the only gift that is worthy to be given to God is the one He gave to Us…His Son. The only gift that will redeem us is the same…the gift of His Son’s suffering & life given back to Him through the Mass.

Are you here because you (again generic you) fear the success of the TLM. & are part of the bombardment of laity within the Sanctuary. Perhaps part of you are Liturgical Dancers, Lectors, Deacons or EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers who “serve” every Sunday? If so, don’t fear. On the unlikely supposition that the TLM. will someday become the OF., there are plenty of positions concerning our food kitchens, manning the phones intended for crisis calls re. girls that are pregnant & alone. There are altar cloths that need washing & mending constantly. The Pro-Life marches & "prayer circles for the dead babies & their parents. Of course, we need worshipers for Eucharistic Adoration (Something that is really telling is that your patron saint, Basil is said to have been the one who intitiated this pious devotion in the 4th century. He divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated the Divine Liturgy in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar.)The thing is…these methods of service can’t be seen by others, so many people avoid them in favor of being “up-front”.

Do you feel that you must participate in the Traditional Forum to interrupt when we are singing the praises of the TLM. & are claiming that we find “our” Mass superior to the Novus Ordo as it is prayed today? (BTW., I have never seen it prayed as it is supposed to be. I attended one parish that came really close, but after 8 months the priest who pastored that parish was GONE.) I would HOPE that you all find** your own Mass **superior or why would you attend it?

Myself, I’m so glad to be free to attend the TLM. & I pray that we won’t lose it again. I attended the same Mass for the first 24 years of my life. When they introduced the Novus Ordo, I tried for about 10 yrs. to adapt to it & to love it. Aftter that, I just endured. For 30+ years, I attended Mass & fought back the sense of loss, the anger as the dancers made it impossible to even SEE the Tabernacle…(so it was, of course, put on a shelf in the old choir loft). I received Communion from the woman who played cards with my Mother & stopped at the convenience store for a soda, with the Eucharist in her car, on her way to the hospital to distribute the Body & Blood of Christ.

There are a few like me on these forums. Many if our generation quietly left the Church years ago. I’d like you to form a mental picture of yourselves attending the TLM. EVERY WEEK FOR 40 yrs. I doubt if many of you would do it. Myself & many of my fellow traditional Catholics on these forums MADE IT!! We prayed & had faith in the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, to right itself. We have earned the right to have a forum where we can post “REASONS THAT WE LOVE THE MASS OF THE AGES”.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=410783
 
I am curious to find where the term “Mass of all Ages” comes from. Is it in an actual Church document or is it a term coined by individuals?

The “Mass of all Ages” did not come about until the 16th century as each diocese had their own missal, yes many if not most of those missals were alike but they all where not.

Then there is the issue of the Rites of the Religious Orders.

As I said, though, just curious.
 
ProVobis said:
It figures, less work for you.
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Just what are you talking about? “Less work for me?” Pardon?

I don’t attend Mass to do “work.” I attend Mass to be present at Calvary when God sacrifices His Son for our sins, past, present and future.
 
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