Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[lanman87]

When was St. Paul justified? When he was knocked off his horse? Or when he was baptized?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

I believe it was when “something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight”.

 

[De_Maria]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
lanman87

    July 30

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) De_Maria:
When was St. Paul justified? When he was knocked off his horse? Or when he was baptized?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

I believe it was when “something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight”.

So what happened when he was washed of his sins? Isn’t the washing of sins effectively when justification happens?

 

[Justin_Mary]

You guys are having a fabulous conversation. I’m just going to throw this in… don’t let it distract you from the conversation at hand, but come back to it if you have the time.

But God expects a transformation.”

We don’t believe God expects a transformation as much as causes a transformation.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

When was St. Paul justified? When he was knocked off his horse? Or when he was baptized?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

I believe it was when “something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight”.

Here’s how I read that.

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Lord Jesus sent me to you in order to heal your blindness and baptize you.
(Baptism is where we receive the Holy Spirit).

18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;

And that is what happened. His eyes were opened and he was baptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

What does it mean to you where Scripture says, “wash sins away”? Isn’t the washing away of sins the same thing as justification?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[De_Maria]

You guys are having a fabulous conversation. I’m just going to throw this in… don’t let it distract you from the conversation at hand, but come back to it if you have the time.

lanman87:

But God expects a transformation.”

We don’t believe God expects a transformation as much as causes a transformation.

Since you seem to be addressing us both, I’d like to say that I like the terminology, “expects”, in that sentence, especially since it is coming from a Reformed point of view. Because they usually deny “freewill” and this connotes that God has given us the right to make a choice. He anticipates our choice, but does not coerce it.

However, I have no trouble with “cause”, either. Since everything is preceded by grace.

 

[lanman87]

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Here is what I was taught about Act 22:16

The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos , translated “calling on His name” refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, “be baptized.” Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated “having called on His name” which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events.

In other words that his sins were washed away when He called on the name of the Lord, which came before his water baptism. Then the water baptism symbolized and demonstrated his sins were washed away. This is consistent with Acts 2:38 where the word “for” (eis) means “because of” just as our word “for” in English most often means “because of”. For instance, Joe went to jail for murder. Joe did not go to jail to commit murder. He went to jail because he murdered. Of course, both eis and our English word for can also mean “to get”. For instance, Joe went to Taco Bell for a burrito. In both instances you have to look at the context and what was taking place.

I’m about to go to bed and am going to be out of town tomorrow and away from the internet. Have a good night and a good Wednesday.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m about to go to bed and am going to be out of town tomorrow and away from the internet. Have a good night and a good Wednesday.

Yeah. Me too. Good night.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Here is what I was taught about Act 22:16

*The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos , …

This is the way I read that:

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Our Lord sent you to me in order to that your eyes may be healed and to be baptized. (It is in baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit).

18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;

And that is what happened. His vision was healed and he was baptized for the remission of sins and given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In addition:
1st. I didn’t see my question answered:

What does it mean to you where Scripture says, “wash sins away”? Isn’t the washing away of sins the same thing as justification?

So, is the washing away of sins the same thing as justification?

If it is, then the justification did not occur when the scales fell off his eyes.

2nd. Calling on his name and being water baptized are two parts of the same ritual. It is the ritual of baptism. So, if his sins were washed away when he called on Jesus’ name or if they were washed away when he was washed with water, they were still washed away during the same ritual, Baptism.

3rd. Titus 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Are these three references to the same event?

1. Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If Baptism is ineffectual, why does Scripture say that it is in Baptism that we die with Christ and rise with Him to eternal life?

Have a good evening. I also will be traveling tomorrow.

 

[lanman87]

When talking about Baptism it is important to note that when the Bible speaks of Baptism it is not always talking about water baptism. Baptism can also simply mean to be immersed into or joined into. I once heard a pastor say that “the best picture of water baptism is to take a cloth and dip it into water. Notice how the water doesn’t just cover the cloth it seeps into it and joins with it.”

That is what the Holy Spirit does when we come to Christ. He doesn’t just surround us. He comes into us and joins with us. Paul speaking to the Corinthians about the time they came to Christ says " For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13 Paul is clearly talking about a spiritual joining with Christ and not water baptism.

As for Acts 22:16 Here is the way two popular Translations of the Bible put this verse.

16 And now, why delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’ HCSB (widely used by Southern Baptist)

16 What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’ New Living Translation

I believe these two to have the correct usage and thought for our modern English ears.

 

[lanman87]

Instead of regurgitation the Believer’s Baptism arguments, here are some links from John MaCarthur and John Piper

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

What is Baptism and Does it Save? This the audio/text of a John Piper Sermon on 1 Peter 3:18-22

I hope you had a good trip.

 

[De_Maria]

When talking about Baptism it is important to note that when the Bible speaks of Baptism it is not always talking about water baptism. …

The ritual includes the verbal acclamations, calling on the name of the Lord. This is how we show our faith.

Instead of regurgitation the Believer’s Baptism arguments, here are some links from John MaCarthur and John Piper

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

What is Baptism and Does it Save? This the audio/text of a John Piper Sermon on 1 Peter 3:18-22

I hope you had a good trip.

I did, thanks. I hope you did, as well.

I don’t see an answer to my questions:

So, is the washing away of sins the same thing as justification ?

Are these three references to the same event? Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5

If Baptism is ineffectual, why does Scripture say that it is in Baptism that we die with Christ and rise with Him to eternal life?

If by ignoring those questions, you mean to put an end to this discussion, so be it.
Thanks for participating as long as you did.

 

[lanman87]

If by ignoring those questions, you mean to put an end to this discussion, so be it.
Thanks for participating as long as you did.

Sorry I was still working on the explanations of Acts 22:16 and the question of if it was the baptism that washed away Paul’s sin or him “Calling on the name of the Lord”.

The ritual includes the verbal acclamations, calling on the name of the Lord. This is how we show our faith.

I agree with this. But I think it is the faith that saves and not the ritual. The ritual is an expression of and proclamation of our faith. Our sins are washed away by faith, we are filled with the Holy Spirit by faith,

Are these three references to the same event? Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5

The MacCarthur link I gave explains Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. I’ll not cut and paste.

As for Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

I don’t think the washing of regeneration is talking about water baptism. I think it is talking about how the Spirit washes and renews us. The washing is a spiritual washing and not a physical washing of water. One reason is the sentence beforehand, “not because of works done by us in righteousness”. I would consider baptism a work we do in righteousness. It is clear (to me) that rituals done in righteousness isn’t why or how He saved us.

Do you consider baptism to be a work done in righteousness?

So, is the washing away of sins the same thing as justification ?

Washing away of sins is a result of Justification. Justification is part of the entirety of salvation.

 

[lanman87]

If Baptism is ineffectual, why does Scripture say that it is in Baptism that we die with Christ and rise with Him to eternal life?

If Baptism is ineffectual, why does Scripture say that it is in Baptism that we die with Christ and rise with Him to eternal life?

Baptism is the Scriptures isn’t always referring to water baptism. The actually meaning of the word baptizma means to be immersed in or identified with something or joined to something, in this case someone. See 1 Cor 10:2 where the Jews were baptized into Moses. This doesn’t mean they were dunked under water into Moses, it means they were identified with Moses.

When Paul says we are baptized into Christ he is saying we are identified with Christ and his death and resurrection. He is not saying that our water baptism causes us to die physically die with Christ and rise with him. It is our Spiritual baptism (immersion) from Christ that causes us to die to our self, live for him, and will cause us to be raised with him.

Here is one explanation I found about the greek word(s) for baptism.

In Greek literature, “baptism” rarely refers to what we think of as “baptism with water.” Instead, the word refers to a wide variety of events or ideas. It is used to refer to a sinking ship or a drowning person, and also to someone who is overcome by sickness and disease and “sinks” into death. In some Greek references, it refers to people who sink into sleep, intoxication, or impotence, or even to those who are overwhelmed by faults, desires, and the magical arts (Oepke, TDNT ,

I:530).

So “baptism” does not inherently include any idea of getting dunked under water, but rather refers to being immersed, overwhelmed, or overcome by something else. It means you are no longer who you were before, and are now fully identified with something or someone else.

Therefore, whenever you see the word “baptize” or “baptism” in Scripture, it would be wise to stop and change the word into “immersion” or “identification” and then ask yourself, “Immersed or identified with what?

 

[De_Maria]

Sorry I was still working on the explanations of Acts 22:16 and the question of if it was the baptism that washed away Paul’s sin or him “Calling on the name of the Lord”.

No problem.

I agree with this. But I think it is the faith that saves and not the ritual. The ritual is an expression of and proclamation of our faith.

Well, can we say it is God who saves those who express their faith in this ritual?

Our sins are washed away by faith, we are filled with the Holy Spirit by faith,

Rather, we are filled with the Holy Spirit because of our faith and our sins are washed away by the Holy Spirit.

The MacCarthur link I gave explains Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. I’ll not cut and paste.

As for Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

I don’t think the washing of regeneration is talking about water baptism… It is clear (to me) that rituals done in righteousness isn’t why or how He saved us.

Even though Scripture says:

1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Do you consider baptism to be a work done in righteousness?

I consider it to be the working of God.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism,
in which you were also raised with him
through your faith in the working of God,
who raised him from the dead.

Washing away of sins is a result of Justification. Justification is part of the entirety of salvation.

I see it exactly backwards. Justification is the result of the washing away of sins.

One is made righteous, by God, when one no longer has sins on his soul.

Baptism is the Scriptures isn’t always referring to water baptism. … This doesn’t mean they were dunked under water into Moses, it means they were identified with Moses.

Then it doesn’t “strictly” mean “immersion”.

We believe it means, “washing”. Washing can be done with immersion or with pouring.
Anybody who has ever washed dishes knows that. But, washing is normally done with water.

When Paul says we are baptized into Christ he is saying we are identified with Christ and his death and resurrection…*In Greek literature, “baptism” rarely refers to what we think of as “baptism with water.” …

Why are you going to Greek literature for this? Our baptism ritual is from the Hebrews. Jesus was not a Greek.

So “baptism” does not inherently include any idea of getting dunked under water, but rather refers to being immersed, …

Therefore, whenever you see the word “baptize” or “baptism” in Scripture, it would be wise to stop and change the word into “immersion” or “identification” and then ask yourself, “Immersed or identified with what?

Mark 7:4

they wash

PHRASE
g907

βαπτίζω
baptizō

 

[lanman87]

Even though Scripture says:

1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also —not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

See the John Piper sermon I linked on 1 Peter.

Then it doesn’t “strictly” mean “immersion”.

Strictly speaking, it means to immerse or dip, but it doesn’t necessarily mean with water. Like most words it has other meanings depending on the usage.

Why are you going to Greek literature for this? Our baptism ritual is from the Hebrews. Jesus was not a Greek.

The ritual itself comes from the Jewish Mikveh ritual of converts to Judaism. However, the word baptize is a Greek Word.

In Non-Christian writings the word Baptize was often used as to plunge, sink, drench, or overwhelm. It was used to refer to people getting drunk (overwhelmed by drink), ships sinking, paying to high of taxes (overwhelmed by taxes).

Here are a few examples.

“The second part the kings have received for public revenues;…and on account of the abundant supply from these, they do not WHELM (BAPTIZE) the common people with taxes. ex. 132, p 64. Diodorus, the Sicilian, Historical Library, I. ch. 73. ]

“Knowing him to be dissolute and prodigal, and WHELMED (BAPTIZED) with debts amounting to fifty millions. ex. 133, p 64. Plutarch, Life of Galba, XXI. ]

“And that it did not become him, either to fly from enemies, or to abandon friends; nor to leap off, as from a ship overtaken by a storm, into which he had entered in fair weather; that he would himself OVER-WHELM (BAPTIZE) the city, as no one would longer dare to make resistance to the enemy, when he was gone through whom their courage was sustained. ex. 97, pp 48-9. Josephus, Jewish War, III. ch. 7, 15. ]

“For that which, of a sudden, comes all at once and unexpected, shocks the soul, falling on it unawares, and WHELMS (BAPTIZES). ex. 162, p 79. Achilles Tatius, Leucippe and Clitophon, I. ch. 3.

Those are just a few examples of the verb Baptize being used in Greek writings. If you were a 1st Century Roman who read and spoke Greek and you read Paul’s letter to the Romans you would probably understand that to be Baptized into to Christ is to be plunged into Christ or overwhelmed by Christ and at the very least, immersed into Christ.

 

[De_Maria]

See the John Piper sermon I linked on 1 Peter.

In other words, you don’t believe that we are saved in Baptism.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Strictly speaking, it means to immerse or dip, but it doesn’t necessarily mean with water. Like most words it has other meanings depending on the usage.

Strictly speaking, it means washing and washing is usually done with water.

The ritual itself comes from the Jewish Mikveh ritual of converts to Judaism. However, the word baptize is a Greek Word.

A Greek word which was used to express a Hebrew custom.

In Non-Christian writings the word Baptize …

We’re talking about the Christian Doctrine:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Scriptures were written by Christians who had been raised in a Jewish environment.

Here are a few examples.

“The second part the kings have received for public revenues;…and on account of the abundant supply from these, they do not WHELM (BAPTIZE) the common people with taxes. ex. 132, p 64. Diodorus, the Sicilian, Historical Library, I. ch. 73. ]

“Knowing him to be dissolute and prodigal, and WHELMED (BAPTIZED) with debts amounting to fifty millions. ex. 133, p 64. Plutarch, Life of Galba, XXI. ]

“And that it did not become him, either to fly from enemies, or to abandon friends; nor to leap off, as from a ship overtaken by a storm, into which he had entered in fair weather; that he would himself OVER-WHELM (BAPTIZE) the city, as no one would longer dare to make resistance to the enemy, when he was gone through whom their courage was sustained. ex. 97, pp 48-9. Josephus, Jewish War, III. ch. 7, 15. ]

“For that which, of a sudden, comes all at once and unexpected, shocks the soul, falling on it unawares, and WHELMS (BAPTIZES). ex. 162, p 79. Achilles Tatius, Leucippe and Clitophon, I. ch. 3.

Those are just a few examples of the verb Baptize being used in Greek writings. If you were a 1st Century Roman who read and spoke Greek and you read Paul’s letter to the Romans you would probably understand that to be Baptized into to Christ is to be plunged into Christ or overwhelmed by Christ and at the very least, immersed into Christ.

More than likely, a 1st Century Roman would not have seen St. Paul’s letter to the Romans. If he wanted to be a Christian, he would have been taken to the local Catholic gathering and it would have been explained to him that Baptism is a washing in water which signifies the washing of the Holy Spirit in his soul.

In addition, even if he had seen the letters, he probably would not have been able to read them. Literacy rates were dismal back then.

 

[ziapueblo]

To understand Paul one must see what was going on at the time. After Paul’s first missionary journey he ran into what Luke calls the “circumcision party”. These where Christians that taught that Gentiles must become Jewish (circumcision and kosher laws-no bacon) before becoming Christian. Next we have Act 15, the council in Jerusalem which taught that only baptism is necessary, no more following the Jewish law.

When Paul is mentioning the “law” or “works” he is referring to the Torah. The reason being, to put an end to this early heresy.

Check these outstanding class from the Institute of Catholic Culture on this very subject:

ZP

 

[lanman87]

We’re talking about the Christian Doctrine:

We are talking about the word(s) for Baptism. It is a word used to describe the initiation rite into the Christian Church. But it was also a word used in the Greco-Roman society to indicate a the joining of two elements or a change from combining two elements together by soaking or immersing one element into the other.

So while the Greek Lexicon gives the following definitions, the word itself has a deeper meaning when you look at how the word was actually used in the Greco-Roman society. (which the Church was part of).

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
to overwhelm

Theologian James Montgomery Boice explains it this way. (emphasis mine)

The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’(bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

To be baptized into Christ it to be united with Christ. The Christian initiation rite of baptism is a symbol and demonstration of our spiritual union with Christ that comes by faith/trust in Christ. Peter is even quick to point out in the 1 Peter passage you quoted that is not the “removal of dirt from the body”, that saves. It isn’t the rite of baptism that saves it is the “appeal to God for a good conscience”. In other words it is what happens to our heart/conscience that actually saves us.

More than likely, a 1st Century Roman would not have seen St. Paul’s letter to the Romans. If he wanted to be a Christian, he would have been taken to the local Catholic gathering and it would have been explained to him that Baptism is a washing in water which signifies the washing of the Holy Spirit in his soul.

In addition, even if he had seen the letters, he probably would not have been able to read them. Literacy rates were dismal back then.

The elders at the local assembly would also have understood baptism in much of the New Testament to be talking about being plunged into Christ, overwhelmed by Christ, immersed in Christ or united to Christ as opposed to the rite of water Baptism.

And when the letters from Paul were read to the congregation they would have understood the same thing.

 

[De_Maria]

We are talking about the word(s) for Baptism. It is a word used to describe the initiation rite into the Christian Church.

A Church whose foundations are Hebrew, not Greek.

But it was also a word used in the Greco-Roman society to indicate a the joining of two elements or a change from combining two elements together by soaking or immersing one element into the other.

Sure. And the Church adopted it to basically, describe the Mikveh.

So while the Greek Lexicon gives the following definitions, the word itself has a deeper meaning when you look at how the word was actually used in the Greco-Roman society. (which the Church was part of).

But we’re not focusing on Greco-Roman society. We’re focusing on the Teachings
of Jesus Christ.

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
to overwhelm

The most important meaning in that group, is to wash. That is the sense which the
Catholic Church has attached to it.

Theologian James Montgomery Boice explains it this way. (emphasis mine)

*The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’(bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution.

Too many assumptions there. Bapto could mean poured and baptizo could mean washed.

Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.*

Again, their emphasis is on Greek customs. Whereas, Jesus Christ was raised in
Hebrew customs and passed on Hebrew customs.

To be baptized into Christ it to be united with Christ. The Christian initiation rite of baptism is a symbol and demonstration of our spiritual union with Christ that comes by faith/trust in Christ. Peter is even quick to point out in the 1 Peter passage you quoted that is not the “removal of dirt from the body”, that saves.

That is the Catholic Doctrine. Do you really believe that we think that the washing of the water removing the dirt from our bodies is what saves. Let me quote you the
Doctrine from the Catechism.

694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit’s action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: …

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

It isn’t the rite of baptism that saves it is the “appeal to God for a good conscience”.

Which occurs in the rite of Baptism. If that appeal does not occur in the rite of Baptism because the individual does not have faith in the action of God, then it will not be done.

In other words, no one can come around and make up their own ritual and command God to do what he wants. God has given us the rites that He wants us to perform
in His Son’s name.

In other words it is what happens to our heart/conscience that actually saves us.

It is God who saves by performing these actions, which He commanded us to invoke
by washing in water and calling on His name.

The elders at the local assembly would also have understood baptism in much of the New Testament to be talking about being plunged into Christ, overwhelmed by Christ, immersed in Christ or united to Christ as opposed to the rite of water Baptism.

On the contrary, the early Church Fathers all taught water baptism.

And when the letters from Paul were read to the congregation they would have understood the same thing.

Still, not true. The earliest homilies of the Early Church Fathers speak of the Holy
Spirit in the waters of Baptism.

JUSTIN MARTYR
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

Do you have any examples of an early Church Father who says that water baptism is
not necessary for salvation?

 

[lanman87]

Which occurs in the rite of Baptism. If that appeal does not occur in the rite of Baptism because the individual does not have faith in the action of God, then it will not be done.

My point is that this “appeal to God” can occur apart from baptism. It is normative for this to happen before baptism and then baptism to occur because of this “appeal to God” The person is saved when they “appeal to God” not when they are baptized.