Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[lagerald24]

Alright, it’s been a while since I’ve posted on CAF but here’s my hot take on Romans 2:13 and reconciling it with the rest of the NT. First, let’s examine the context of that verse in light of the chapter as a whole. After illustrating the universal sinfulness of humanity in the first chapter of his letter, Paul then goes on, in chapter two, to explain how the Jews, despite having the Law or Torah of Moses (aka. the Mosaic Law), are nevertheless sinful and will be judged along with the Gentile peoples who have the natural law written on their hearts. Paul is saying in verse 13 that the Jewish people are not justified by merely hearing the Law of Moses preached to them because of the fact that they are the privileged, chosen people of God but will only be justified, like all men, by actually keeping the law. In fact, Paul says in verses 6, 7 and 8, men will be judged according to what they did, their works, and not merely by the fact that they are a Jew privileged with knowledge of the Law through God’s revelation to Moses as opposed to a non-Jew who lacks membership in the covenant. Anyway, as we read in verse 16, God will render each man, including Gentiles, according to how they act and not merely who is a Jew with the Law and who isn’t, because ultimately it isn’t about the bare letter of the Law, it’s about the indwelling of the Spirit and God’s gift of grace in which we become partakers in the Divine Nature as Peter says in his epistle and have the virtues of faith, hope, and charity shed abroad in our hearts as Romans 5:1-5 declares. In conclusion, the Gospel Paul is preaching isn’t about God imputing Christ’s perfect righteousness to us but rather, in Him we become the righteousness of Christ and are made righteous. As NT Wright, James Dunn, and the rest of the New Perspective on Paul gang has shown, Luther and Calvin were projecting their own tussles with the Catholic Church onto the controversy between the Judaizer heretics and Paul in Romans and Galatians.

 

[lagerald24]

Sorry, get popcorn, haha! Long post…

 

[Cathoholic]

Itwas said . . . .

And we’re all God’s children

Ianman87 replied . . . .

I disagree with that statement.

Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[h] Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”[i] 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children
Romans 8:15-16

.

So only saved people have God as their Father.

Yet many assert Once Saved, Always Saved.

Here in Matthew 6, Jesus is talking to people who are SAVED.

People Jesus says have God as their FATHER.

Yet Jesus tells them if they do not FORGIVE, they will not be forgiven!

MATTHEW 6:9-15 9 Pray then like this:

Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
15 but
if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses.

More Biblical evidence against the tradition of once saved always saved.

 

[lanman87]

Forget about their “assurance” for a moment.

If they later decide to refuse to DO these things do they still HAVE Eternal Life?
(Irrespective of their mere feelings.)

So what happens when someone who was in Christ and has faith to proverbially move mountains, decides to no longer bear fruit?

(You know . . . . I have been asking the same questions over dozens of posts and I still have not gotten a straight answer.)

That is because I don’t know. I’ve examined both views and can see points in both. Instead of taking a stand on something I have no conviction one way or another, which would be disingenuous on my part. I simply like to say that as long as you trust Jesus and follow Him then you don’t have to worry about it.

I can argue either position and have on this board just to show that other points of view are possible.

 

[lanman87]

Fair enough.

Now I will await Ianman87’s response and then address your reply.

Thanks for posting it. (Actually it is just what I expected to hear from Ianman too. But I will wait and see what Ian says.)

He is correct. Faith in evangelical speak, is more than intellectual assent. It is a word that means a lot of different things. A long definition would something like, “Believing in Christ so much that I trust Him with all my heart, mind, soul and strength to the point that I surrender my life to him and live for him”.

 

[lanman87]

WHERE is this verse that teaches this tradition?

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 36:27

7 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness Romans 6:17-18

It is God by His Spirit who causes us to be obedient. And those who have faith and are “in Christ” have become slaves of righteousness. If you aren’t a slave of righteousness then you are still a slave to sin and haven’t surrendered to Christ.

 

[C.Longinus]

So basically irresistible grace? Because the opposite is said in the Scripture.

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic asked Ianman87 about people who are saved then refuse to bear fruit.

I asked if they are saved anyway.

Ianman87 said he didn’t know.

Ianman87. What if they never had “faith”?

Do you think you “know” then?

Of course they are not saved.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

You know that. I don’t have to post the verse.

But with fruitful works, I am not asking about a subjective person.

I am asking about an objective situation.

I know the answer to both questions.

How bout it Ianman87? What do you think?

If a guy has a situation where he has faith to move mountains, is thus in Jesus or the Vine, but chooses to not bear fruit do you think he is saved anyway?

 

[De_Maria]

I think it is very possible that when the Prodigal Christian dies they walk into the presence of God weeping because they finally understand the cost of the Grace that was given to them. And God tells them He loves them and that their battle with sin is over.

Is it also “POSSIBLE” that the prodigal son, should he die in his sins without repentance, is the one to whom St. Paul makes reference in Heb 6:4-6?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)​

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Is that also possible?

If look at my life and the work of the Spirit is displayed in how I live my life and serve God and serve others then I can know I have eternal life. If two years from now I’m steeped in sin, no longer care about God, and refuse to repent then I can know longer know that I have eternal life. Because the evidence is no longer affirming that I have received the gift of eternal life.

In your response to Cathoholic, you seem to agree that it is possible to lose one’s salvation.

But yes, it is possible for me to know, at any given moment, that I have eternal life. Otherwise John is a liar.

I’m pretty sure St. John is telling the truth, it is the individual understanding that is the problem. That is why we need believe and submit to the infallible Teacher.

He is correct. Faith in evangelical speak, is more than intellectual assent. It is a word that means a lot of different things. A long definition would something like, “Believing in Christ so much that I trust Him with all my heart, mind, soul and strength to the point that I surrender my life to him and live for him”.

That’s exactly the way we define it. And that’s why we trust His Church and His Saints and His mom etc. etc.

Whereas, you pivot. You claim to trust Jesus Christ, but you don’t trust what He established in this world.

Do you believe that Jesus can move through His creatures? Does He speak through His Church? Does He pour out grace through water?

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 36:27

But I affirm the Spirit of God causes us to obey.

I have spent a lot of “ink” above backing this up.

But what about the guy who the Spirit of God caused to obey, then later rejects that Spirit of God and chooses to not bear fruit that will last?

Then what?

 

[TULIPed]

But what about the guy who the Spirit of God caused to obey, then later rejects that Spirit of God and chooses to not bear fruit that will last?

This conversation reminds me of a painful moment in middle school. I was the 2nd pick overall for a 5v5 pick-up basketball game, and then Ronny McBride showed up late and I was unpicked, and somehow moved all the way down to the 8th pick. To say it was devastating is an understatement. But I’ve moved on. Really - I’m totally over it.

Come to think of it though, at long last, maybe I now know how I ended up a Calvinist…

 

[C.Longinus]

In your response to Cathoholic, you seem to agree that it is possible to lose one’s salvation.

He’s saying it means he never had it in the first place.

 

[lanman87]

In your response to Cathoholic, you seem to agree that it is possible to lose one’s salvation.

Here is what I told Cathoholic…

That is because I don’t know. I’ve examined both views and can see points in both. Instead of taking a stand on something I have no conviction one way or another, which would be disingenuous on my part. I simply like to say that as long as you trust Jesus and follow Him then you don’t have to worry about it.

I can argue either position and have on this board just to show that other points of view are possible.

 

[lanman87]

But what about the guy who the Spirit of God caused to obey, then later rejects that Spirit of God and chooses to not bear fruit that will last?

Then what?

I told you that I don’t have a conviction on the issue. I do know “that there is no condemnation on those who are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1 So then the question becomes, does that person who chooses to ignore/go against the Spirit remain in Christ Jesus? If they do then that person will be saved as he is not under condemnation. If not, then that person will be lost as they are not in Christ Jesus and are under condemnation.

 

[lanman87]

But what about the guy who the Spirit of God caused to obey, then later rejects that Spirit of God and chooses to not bear fruit that will last?

Just a quick observation. If the Spirit of God causes us to obey then is it possible to not obey? I mean, it doesn’t say the Spirit of God suggest we obey, or compels us to obey, or urges us to obey, or hopes we obey. It says Causes us to obey.

Maybe I’m a Calvinist after all.

 

[lanman87]

Those are a lot of question and lots of discussion in answering those questions. I’m not up for chasing those rabbit trails right now.

 

[lanman87]

Is it also “POSSIBLE” that the prodigal son, should he die in his sins without repentance, is the one to whom St. Paul makes reference in Heb 6:4-6?

Could be. We can speculate about a lot of things.

 

[lanman87]

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands , he offered them money

I haven’t forgotten about this. I’ve just been bombarded with so much other stuff (and living life) that I haven’t had time to form a coherent answer.

 

[lagerald24]

But as Augustine says in his work On Grace and Free Will, it doesn’t make sense that Scripture would tell us to choose righteousness and to not choose perdition if it was the case that we really had no free will. Please keep in mind that I don’t nor does any good Catholic believe in a totally libertarian view of free will. Of course we are affected by the Fall and we are by nature children of wrath but who’s to say that free will is just whole-sale blotted out? Just some food for thought. Also, as this article (Calvin Dissing the Fathers – Orthodox-Reformed Bridge) notes, all the early Church Fathers believed in both free will and in the power of God’s grace, even despite the many, many questions that we all raise about the two and how they work. Obviously, Catholics aren’t either Armenians nor are they Calvinists but rather, we take a wholly Biblical and Patristic perspective. I always have seen that most Calvinist Protestants wrongly believe that God and humans are in competition with the more God does the less we do and vice versa. I’ve always had problems with that view, not comprehending the whole-sale rejection of secondary causes who are made to God’s image and thus have intellects and free wills. Anyway, excuse the long and perhaps unnecessary post : )

 

[lagerald24]

Trusting Jesus means loving Him right? And loving Him isn’t just a feeling, it’s a way of life and a vocation as we see in Scripture, i.e. if you love me, you will keep my commandments. And so, faith in Jesus implies faithfulness. You’re on the right track.