Redeeming Qualities in Same-Sex Relationships

[Rau]

Again, if you are interested in knowing why read the velvet rage. Yes, some gay men engage in multiple sex partners but guess who else does…/lots of straight men! They may have wives but the rate of infidelity in through the roof in this country, so please spare me the notion that only gay men have multiple partners.

Are you saying that there is data indicating the prevalence of a preference for open relationships is the same in gay men as men generally? Or are you saying there is a reason for a higher prevalence in gay men? If the latter, what are the reasons?

 

[lileli]

Are you saying that there is data indicating the prevalence of a preference for open relationships is the same in gay men as men generally? Or are you saying there is a reason for a higher prevalence in gay men? If the latter, what are the reasons?

Both. For centuries the only way a gay male could express his sexuality was through brief anonymous encounters. They were expected to get married and settle down. In fact, most were driven to completely hide their feelings from the outside world. This has continued everywhere and is only now starting to get better since gay relationships in the western world are now starting to be accepted. This compounded by the natural inclination of men to well like sex. Again, if you are curious to find out more read the velvet rage. I always finds it interesting that when studs etc are brought up to “prove” being gay is dangerous that lesbians are never mentioned. They completely negate this idea since lesbians have a lower std rate than heterosexual people! Lesbians deal with the trauma in different ways and it manifests in different ways.

 

[Rau]

Both. For centuries the only way a gay male could express his sexuality was through brief anonymous encounters. They were expected to get married and settle down. In fact, most were driven to completely hide their feelings from the outside world. This has continued everywhere and is only now starting to get better since gay relationships in the western world are now starting to be accepted. This compounded by the natural inclination of men to well like sex. Again, if you are curious to find out more read the velvet rage. I always finds it interesting that when studs etc are brought up to “prove” being gay is dangerous that lesbians are never mentioned. They completely negate this idea since lesbians have a lower std rate than heterosexual people! Lesbians deal with the trauma in different ways and it manifests in different ways.

I understand you to be saying that there is a “cultural habit” for gay men to operate in the shadows, and then, of necessity, to move on and repeat if their relationship is, or threatens to be, found out. That sounds credible, but I’m not really sure how that fits in with the idea of an “open relationship”, but I guess if we wait 10 or 20 years, we should expect to see a very substantial take up of SSM, and a corresponding fall-off in the prevalence of open relationship. We must wait and see.

 

[1990Domer]

Interesting. Here is a quote:

*“I think it’s quite natural for men to want to continue to have an active and varied sex life,” said 50-year-old technology consultant Dean Allemang from Oakland, who just ended a 13-year-open relationship and has begun another with a new boyfriend.

“I don’t own my lover, and I don’t own his body,” he said. “I think it’s weird to ask someone you love to give up that part of their life. I would never do it.”"*

I think this would be a very infrequently encountered perspective in society at large, but the researcher in your article suggests it is a great deal more prevalent amongst gay men.

Rau (sorry for the stupid auto fill), I can find you a couple more from varied places when SSM was being passed by certain states. It shocked me and my husband, as we were involved in marriage prep for our church.

 

[1990Domer]

Both. For centuries the only way a gay male could express his sexuality was through brief anonymous encounters. They were expected to get married and settle down. In fact, most were driven to completely hide their feelings from the outside world. This has continued everywhere and is only now starting to get better since gay relationships in the western world are now starting to be accepted. This compounded by the natural inclination of men to well like sex. Again, if you are curious to find out more read the velvet rage. I always finds it interesting that when studs etc are brought up to “prove” being gay is dangerous that lesbians are never mentioned. They completely negate this idea since lesbians have a lower std rate than heterosexual people! Lesbians deal with the trauma in different ways and it manifests in different ways.

Rau and Lileli

Interesting read: advindicate.com/articles/3022

 

[lileli]

Rau and Lileli

Interesting read: advindicate.com/articles/3022

My own experiences alone don’t dictate reality but I have seen plenty of committed gay malet relationships. I have also seen plenty of gay single men who have multiple sex partners. The same goes for the heterosexual world. Even if only a tiny tiny minority of gay men wanted to get married that would be no reason to deny them that legal right. Also the author clearly has not been on a college campus where young ladies are as sexually liberated as young men. As I come of age, I notice that all my friends are settling down and virtually all of them had sex like rabbits. So, we have to get this notion that women are living under old restrictions. The app tinder is very much a straight hook up app so there we go.

 

[Smack]

As I come of age, I notice that all my friends are settling down and virtually all of them had sex like rabbits. So, we have to get this notion that women are living under old restrictions.

Honestly, this new sexual revolution that is going on for our young people in America is not so different than the one that started in the 60’s. When you’ve been around for a while, you start to see that history continues to repeat itself.

My real comment, though, is based on something said earlier, in regards to your thought that the suicide rate with homosexual youth is high only because they are taught that they are evil. The truth is that we are all evil without God’s righteousness. In America, we are not yet as depraved as the world that Jesus was born into, although we are heading in that direction. I highly recommend “12 Caesars” by Seutonious to shed some light on that time. My belief is that even when sin is allowed/encouraged/politically correct, the soul knows and the conscience will accuse/excuse, and therefore the suicide rate will still be high among those who are not living according to God’s law written on their hearts (Romans 2:15)

But all of humanity has value because they are made in the image of God, not because they are gay/straight. They do have value despite their sin. I do hope that you will consider the ramifications of your words to the youngsters of the Christian community when you tell them that they are evil, and that they are monsters, simply because they are following the word of God.

Consider me: I have always stood up for anyone who was being mocked/slandered (even way before it was “cool” to do so), and yet I find myself as someone with a target on my back at Portland (Pagan) State University. I don’t even have to “out” myself as a Christian and professors are constantly harassing my religion, my God, and my friends, publically. They refer to my faith as a myth, and they call me out in front of the entire class and try to belittle me. They’ll say, “We don’t have any lame Christians in this class, do we?” It has given me perspective on how the gay community used to be treated, but the tables have turned. I should be able to have my own opinion and to have polite dialog but thy gay community wants to hurt me and humiliate me and drive me underground. All because I’m a Christian. They say I hate them because they’re gay, but I don’t. I would never say the hateful things to them that they say to me. They hate ME because I’m Christian. But I will never EVER change my position on it, because God means more to me than my life. I feel myself falling more and more in love with the Catholic (the real Catholics to support what God wants) community because they are being slandered, just like me.

 

[Thorolfr]

Honestly, this new sexual revolution that is going on for our young people in America is not so different than the one that started in the 60’s. When you’ve been around for a while, you start to see that history continues to repeat itself.

My real comment, though, is based on something said earlier, in regards to your thought that the suicide rate with homosexual youth is high only because they are taught that they are evil. The truth is that we are all evil without God’s righteousness. In America, we are not yet as depraved as the world that Jesus was born into, although we are heading in that direction. I highly recommend “12 Caesars” by Seutonious to shed some light on that time. My belief is that even when sin is allowed/encouraged/politically correct, the soul knows and the conscience will accuse/excuse, and therefore the suicide rate will still be high among those who are not living according to God’s law written on their hearts (Romans 2:15)

But all of humanity has value because they are made in the image of God, not because they are gay/straight. They do have value despite their sin. I do hope that you will consider the ramifications of your words to the youngsters of the Christian community when you tell them that they are evil, and that they are monsters, simply because they are following the word of God.

Consider me: I have always stood up for anyone who was being mocked/slandered (even way before it was “cool” to do so), and yet I find myself as someone with a target on my back at Portland (Pagan) State University. I don’t even have to “out” myself as a Christian and professors are constantly harassing my religion, my God, and my friends, publically. They refer to my faith as a myth, and they call me out in front of the entire class and try to belittle me. They’ll say, “We don’t have any lame Christians in this class, do we?” It has given me perspective on how the gay community used to be treated, but the tables have turned. I should be able to have my own opinion and to have polite dialog but thy gay community wants to hurt me and humiliate me and drive me underground. All because I’m a Christian. They say I hate them because they’re gay, but I don’t. I would never say the hateful things to them that they say to me. They hate ME because I’m Christian. But I will never EVER change my position on it, because God means more to me than my life. I feel myself falling more and more in love with the Catholic (the real Catholics to support what God wants) community because they are being slandered, just like me.

Here’s kind of an interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor on how difficult it can be to be a Christian on many college campuses. It’s a little old (2005), but I still found it kind of interesting:

In a liberal stronghold like the Bay Area, Christians are often stereotyped, says the Rev. Adam Blons, a member of the University Religious Council at the University of California at Berkeley and head of that city’s First Congregational Church. People are quick to assume that all Christians are humorless fundamentalists bent on converting others, he says. “I can confirm that it isn’t easy to be ‘out’ as a Christian.”

That experience is not limited to elite schools on the coasts.

“You find it at a lot of state universities,” says Dan Myers, chairman of the Department of Sociology at Notre Dame University. “There’s an issue, kind of ironic, that those who are attempting to be so open-minded are relatively close-minded about the religion piece of the thing.”

Professor Myers attributes this attitude in part to overzealous Christians who tell others they are wrong not to accept Jesus. He also sees it as a reaction to religion’s long history of suppressing free thought, though he says he experiences full academic freedom at his Catholic university.

“My take is that Notre Dame has some confidence that its religious commitments can stand up to some scrutiny, challenges, and critical thinking,” Myers says of the classes he teaches that cover both sides of the abortion and gay rights movements.

But that’s not always the case at more secular schools, others charge.

csmonitor.com/2005/0125/p12s02-legn.html

 

[Thorolfr]

I found this part of the above article in the *Christian Science Monitor *especially interesting:

In a strange twist, however, sometimes the very policies designed to respect diversity end up working against campus religious groups.

“What you have is basically an institutionalized policy that says an organization that believes in certain absolutes that conflict with very broad nondiscrimination policy have no place on campus,” says David French, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) in Philadelphia, a nonprofit that defends academic freedom.

He cites a case brought to FIRE in 2000. A lesbian at Tufts University who’d long been a member of an InterVarsity-affiliated Christian group said she no longer agreed with the group’s stand on sexual morality. Despite this, she wanted to be part of the group’s leadership.

The group welcomed her as a member but said its leadership must share their core beliefs, in addition to meeting certain training requirements.

The woman filed a complaint with Tufts for religious and sexual discrimination and a student judicial panel threw the group off campus. The university administration, however, felt the decision had been hasty and asked for a review.

On review, the judicial panel ruled the woman had not met training requirements but also said the group exhibited sexual discrimination. The woman, independently, withdrew her complaint and the group had to rewrite its constitution, rephrasing its statements on sexuality.

Gay rights are a flash point on many campuses, often creating an awkward collision between ideals of religious freedom and charges of discrimination, says French.

 

[lileli]

Honestly, this new sexual revolution that is going on for our young people in America is not so different than the one that started in the 60’s. When you’ve been around for a while, you start to see that history continues to repeat itself.

My real comment, though, is based on something said earlier, in regards to your thought that the suicide rate with homosexual youth is high only because they are taught that they are evil. The truth is that we are all evil without God’s righteousness. In America, we are not yet as depraved as the world that Jesus was born into, although we are heading in that direction. I highly recommend “12 Caesars” by Seutonious to shed some light on that time. My belief is that even when sin is allowed/encouraged/politically correct, the soul knows and the conscience will accuse/excuse, and therefore the suicide rate will still be high among those who are not living according to God’s law written on their hearts (Romans 2:15)

But all of humanity has value because they are made in the image of God, not because they are gay/straight. They do have value despite their sin. I do hope that you will consider the ramifications of your words to the youngsters of the Christian community when you tell them that they are evil, and that they are monsters, simply because they are following the word of God.

Consider me: I have always stood up for anyone who was being mocked/slandered (even way before it was “cool” to do so), and yet I find myself as someone with a target on my back at Portland (Pagan) State University. I don’t even have to “out” myself as a Christian and professors are constantly harassing my religion, my God, and my friends, publically. They refer to my faith as a myth, and they call me out in front of the entire class and try to belittle me. They’ll say, “We don’t have any lame Christians in this class, do we?” It has given me perspective on how the gay community used to be treated, but the tables have turned. I should be able to have my own opinion and to have polite dialog but thy gay community wants to hurt me and humiliate me and drive me underground. All because I’m a Christian. They say I hate them because they’re gay, but I don’t. I would never say the hateful things to them that they say to me. They hate ME because I’m Christian. But I will never EVER change my position on it, because God means more to me than my life. I feel myself falling more and more in love with the Catholic (the real Catholics to support what God wants) community because they are being slandered, just like me.

Christians making themselves out to be victims is nauseating. Seriously when did I ever call anyone evil for following their perceived notion of the word of the lord?

 

[SuperLuigi]

You are twisting words of the person responding to you, and you know it. I read no mention of anybody kicking anyone out of church. He merely gave an example of a church where you may feel more comfy.

Folks, don’t fall for the line of “they’re trying to kick me out!” :crying: or other attempts by accounts to portray themselves as victims.

We need to stick to the Truth and it’s up the other party whether or not to accept it. :yup:

 

[SuperLuigi]

Christians making themselves out to be victims is nauseating. Seriously when did I ever call anyone evil for following their perceived notion of the word of the lord?

Christians don’t have to. We’ve been persecuted since the time of Christ, even by other Christians.

In the case of so-called gay “marriage”, many Christians have caved to the world. But this is nothing new. The Bible spoke of times when all of ancient Israel save for very few (or maybe just one person) turned on God.

So what the progressive social movement is doing is nothing new. It’s the same old recycled garbage that destroys civilizations.

 

[SuperLuigi]

=lileli;13192151]You dont see the scars on the African American community?

Yes, when the gay “marriage” movement compares slavery to their overrated cause.

You dont see the double standards for women?

Yes. Traditional women may be mocked, liberal women may not be.

Again, I can write a book but I really recommend the velvet rage. The pain of being told you are evil, you are never allowed to love, and you are unloveable produces negative consequences. Some of the negative consequences can seem positive(many gay men are obsessed with work and reach of the career ladders etc) but this is just a manifestation of pain.

And how many people are REALLY told that today? If so-called gay “marriage” has won the day, then its supporters (many of whom are straights acting very selfishly) cannot claim to be victims.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Much of “problems” you see in the gay community has to do with the fact that they have been driven underground for a very long time.

WHAT?

The “gay riot” in 1969 at the Stonewall Inn in New York City brought everyone “out of the closet”.

No one has been underground for 46 years. Gay people under 40 have never been “underground”.

If you are interested in learning more about the scars society has inflicted on gays please read The Velvet Rage.

I am not interested in “scars”. I should be interested in saving souls, but I am more interested in saving lives.

Abnormal sexual behavior is killing people. PERIOD!!!

More gays are ill or dying from STDs than straights…and gays account for less than 3% of the population.

I see no gay or gay sympathizer on this forum dealing with that problem. All they do is make excuses for homosexuality or try to justify it or worse… promote it as a normal, healthy lifestyle…which it is demonstratively NOT.

As I see it, there are only two solutions.

1. Call “Bob” and tell him it’s over. Then start dating Jane.
2. If you are Catholic, follow the teaching of your Church…bravely pick up your cross and do your best to live a celibate life.

There is a very considerable body of testimony from tens of thousands of men and women who once lived as homosexuals. These ex-“gays” have renounced their former lifestyles and many have become heterosexual in self-identification and desire, while others have stopped at the point of comfort with their own gender and freedom from same-sex desires.

 

[Rau]

…Even if only a tiny tiny minority of gay men wanted to get married that would be no reason to deny them that legal right.

Will that be the claim of polygamists too? FYI, I have no difficulties with a legal framework to meet the needs of persons choosing to live together, share assets, mutually care for each other, etc. I contend however that marriage is a unique one man one woman relationship, inherently sexual and thus the basis of family establishment. No other arrangement ought be declared the same, IMHO.

 

[Rau]

Christians making themselves out to be victims is nauseating.

That statement seems to lack empathy. Do you believe he “made up” what he wrote?

 

[Thorolfr]

No one has been underground for 46 years. Gay people under 40 have never been “underground”.

That’s not true. Many LGBT people must still keep their sexual orientation a secret from their families, their classmates at school and their employers. The negative consequences of being out of the closet can still be very real for some people.

 

[1990Domer]

That’s not true. Many LGBT people must still keep their sexual orientation a secret from their families, their classmates at school and their employers. The negative consequences of being out of the closet can still be very real for some people.

Please help me with this, as I am seriously slow to catch on to cultural trends. However, in the magazines that sit in the doctors’ offices waiting rooms, identifying as or exploring gayness (sorry…not to offend by incorrect wording) seems to be “in vogue.” Being devout is definitely not cool. And I can tell you straight away that discerning a religious vocation will spurn all types of nasty remarks. I know that latter because I live it.

 

[Rau]

That’s not true. Many LGBT people must still keep their sexual orientation a secret from their families, their classmates at school and their employers. The negative consequences of being out of the closet can still be very real for some people.

This may be an enduring problem. SSA is a minority condition with intrinsic downside (even absent unjust discrimination). It impacts a personal and private capacity of the individual. If may be that it will always be a trial for those experiencing it.

 

[Smack]

Christians making themselves out to be victims is nauseating. Seriously when did I ever call anyone evil for following their perceived notion of the word of the lord?

Lileli,

All I did was tell you what happened. Why is it nauseating for you to hear about people hurting other from one group, and not anonther? Don’t you find that to be rather hypocritical? Even for you? (1st John 3:10)

Since high school, I’ve never seen any harassment due to someone being gay. I’ve seen a TON of Christian bashing. And I’m constantly seeing a HUGE amount of propaganda that portrays Christians in a negative light, and homosexuals in a victim light (everything from Dawson’s Creek to Brokeback Mountain).

I would LOVE it if people like yourself would show the same respect and kindness towards those that you disagree with, but you don’t. Just like Paul, you have blinders on your eyes (Acts 9:18). Nauseating or not, even you should be able to put your emotion aside and look at things logically, but you can’t.

Regardless of all of this, however, I do applaud you for being the Lone Wolf dissenter in this forum. It makes the discussion more fun.