Redemptorist says "ghetto" piety sidelining social justice

[fix]

marvin:

Matt,

I think you need to read this,:newadvent.org/library/docs_df84lt.htm

From that instruction:

1. The feeling of anguish at the urgency of the problems cannot make us lose sight of what is essential nor forget the reply of Jesus to the Tempter: “It is not on bread alone that man lives, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4; cf. Deuteronomy 8:3). Faced with the urgency of sharing bread, some are tempted to put evangelization into parentheses, as it were, and postpone it until tomorrow: first the bread, then the Word of the Lord. It is a fatal error to separate these two and even worse to oppose the one to the other. In fact, the Christian perspective naturally shows they have a great deal to do with one another. [19]

 

[Brendan]

I’d like to know why a distinction on “Social Justice”, why are they emphasizing “Social”

Are we not called to be JUSTICE Catholics, to care for, to pray for and to promote Justice in all it’s forms.

Why the qualifier on Justice?

 

[Matt25]

marvin:

Matt,

I think you need to read this,:newadvent.org/library/docs_df84lt.htm

Actually I read it ages ago. Indeed part of it used to be my signature-

More than ever, it is important that numerous Christians, whose faith is clear and who are committed to live the Christian life in its fullness, become involved in the struggle for justice, freedom, and human dignity because of their love for their disinherited, oppressed, and persecuted brothers and sisters. More than ever, the Church intends to condemn abuses, injustices, and attacks against freedom, wherever they occur and whoever commits them. She intends to struggle, by her own means, for the defense and advancement of the rights of mankind, especially of the poor…

1. Consequently mankind will no longer passively submit to crushing poverty with its effects of death, disease, and decline. He resents this misery as an intolerable violation of his native dignity. Many factors, and among them certainly the leaven of the Gospel, have contributed to an awakening of the consciousness of the oppressed.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html

 

[Matt25]

fix:

Again, no one is denying we must help the poor, but while that is necessary it is not sufficient.

Whom on this thread or in the article posted has said anything different? When you are tired of knocking down straw men you might like to address the issues that have actually been raised.

 

[manualman]

The priest/author clearly insinuates his opinion that those who pray the rosary, practice eucharistic adoration, and other ‘older’ forms of piety do so INSTEAD of assisting the poor.

He seems unable to envision a people who BOTH believe that we can come to KNOW God in prayer, devotion and sacraments AND do our part towards helping the poor.

Perhaps he never met Mother Theresa?

Eliminating poverty wholesale appears NOWHERE as a command of Jesus as far as I know. In fact, he seems to say that it can’t be done when he says that ‘the poor will always be with us.’ IMO, the ‘social justice’ wing of the church doesn’t GET that distinction. Instead of decrying poverty as a whole and trying to come up with policies or schemes to eliminate it, we need to focus on helping individuals and small groups climb out of poverty instead. This is a much more acheivable goal, and fits better into the evangelistic role of the church than the Jesse Jackson/social activist model.

 

[Matt25]

manualman:

The priest/author clearly insinuates his opinion that those who pray the rosary, practice eucharistic adoration, and other ‘older’ forms of piety do so INSTEAD of assisting the poor.

Which words does he use to make that insinuation? I don’t see them myself.

Eliminating poverty wholesale appears NOWHERE as a command of Jesus as far as I know. In fact, he seems to say that it can’t be done when he says that ‘the poor will always be with us.’.

I find it interesting that the people seem content to leave others living in poverty never give this quote of our Lord in full-

8 “You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.” John 12

Is it the case that we do have the poor but we do not have Jesus?

 

[caroljm36]

Brendan:

I’d like to know why a distinction on “Social Justice”, why are they emphasizing “Social”

Are we not called to be JUSTICE Catholics, to care for, to pray for and to promote Justice in all it’s forms.

Why the qualifier on Justice?

Hayek had an interesting observation that whenever these people attach “social” to another word, it sucks the meaning out of it. Like Social Studies–slush, gush and mush, not much studies. Think about it: Social justics isn’t “justice” as we know it as a cardinal virtue. It’s basically welfare. And the Church’s position wavered with each encyclical.

The priests at my parish have been on a big SJ kick this year. I just know they think that we conservatives are just not aware of the social justice thing and that we just need to be apprised of it and guest speakers have been giving lectures before mass. Then they had a meeting to decide, what kind of social justice stuff should we do? And no one but the SJ committee and me showed up. I said I liked the soup kitchen/homeless shelter we help out–keep it up. So they dropped 'em to go in a “new direction.”

 

[marvin]

John 12: 8 in context:

"Mary took a liter of costly perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and dried them with her hair: the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. Then Judas the Iscariot, one of the his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said, “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?” He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal. So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.”

John 12:3-8

or if you prefer Mark

"When he was in Bethany reclining at table in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of perfumed oil, costly genuine spikenard. She broke the alabaster jar and poured it on his head. There were some who were indignant. “Why has there been this waste of perfumed oil? It could have been sold for more than three hundred days’ wages and the money given to the poor.” They were infuriated with her. Jesus said, “Let her alone. Why do you make trouble for her? She has done a good thing for me. The poor you will always have with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them, but you will not always have me. She has done what she could. She has anticipated anointing my body for burial.”

Mark 14:3-8

Matthew 26:6-13 is very similar to Mark 14:3-8.

 

[Guar_Fan]

manualman:

The priest/author clearly insinuates his opinion that those who pray the rosary, practice eucharistic adoration, and other ‘older’ forms of piety do so INSTEAD of assisting the poor.

Indeed, this is a false dichotomy. Our desire to help others is a natural feeling, but a richer prayer life can not help but increase this desire.

As Christians we should root our actions in our love for Christ. The Gospels are clear that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. What meaning this has in our individual lives can only be fully appreciated by an active prayer life. Among other things we should seek to know God’s will for each one of us, in light of the Gospels and Church teachings. (Of course, we have to be open to His will, too! )

Matt25, I want to thank you for the time you put into your messages. I find them enlightening as well as inspiring. You are a blessing to have here.

 

[fix]

Matt25:

Whom on this thread or in the article posted has said anything different? When you are tired of knocking down straw men you might like to address the issues that have actually been raised.

From the article:

Fr Duncan, who co-ordinates the social justice studies program at Melbourne’s Yarra Theological Union explains: "In recent years, more conservative groups have wanted to down-play social justice in the mission of the Church, as if it were a distraction from authentic Christian living, or at least a very secondary aspect.

"Instead we see a very heavy stress on older forms of piety or devotionalism or mass displays of Catholic numbers. This seems to reflect a return to the old ghetto strategy, of circling the wagons in a hostile world, combined with a heavy stress on Church authority.

“This cleavage is reflected at many levels of the Church, and even in Rome. Debate revolves around the interpretation of [the Second Vatican Council’s Pastoral Constitution on] The Church in the Modern World and the social encyclicals, which are generally ignored or down-played by the conservative wings, except for the morals of sexuality and family life,” Fr Duncan asserts.

Straw man? Nope, I called it exactly right. The far left values secular social work as an end unto itself.

We cannot buy our way into heaven, nor can we bargain with God. All the social work in the world will not save us if we reject personal holiness and disobey the moral law.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

CarolAnnS:

So there is a place in our world for those elderly ladies praying the Rosary.

Yes, but not during Mass. That was the point of my example.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Brendan:

I’d like to know why a distinction on “Social Justice”, why are they emphasizing “Social”

Why the qualifier on Justice?

Because it is justice directed towards society and social concerns. Legal justice is another form of justice, but is not necessarily connnected in any way to societal problems or to society in general. “Justice” alone is too broad.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

fix:

The far left values secular social work as an end unto itself.

Some of those people certainly do. And many of them have no relationship with God. But I don’t reject them for that. We can appreciate their contributions to the solutions of society’s problems even as we pray that they are moved by and find God.

An agnostic who runs a soup kitchen or a food pantry or who fights for the rights of the poor or fights against racism ought not to be disdained by Christians just because he does not pray with us.

 

[Matt25]

fix:

We cannot buy our way into heaven, nor can we bargain with God. All the social work in the world will not save us if we reject personal holiness and disobey the moral law.

This is certainly true, but the reverse applies. All the personal holiness in the world will not save us if we do not feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

St James said this clearly- 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Jas 1

And St Paul said this

1 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ***
2*** And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ***
3*** If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love must express itself in deeds. Love of God overflows in prayer, song and praise.

Love of neighbour overflows in deeds like these-

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? ***
17*** So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. ***

Jas 2***

 

[fix]

Arba Sicula:
Some of those people certainly do. And many of them have no relationship with God. But I don’t reject them for that. We can appreciate their contributions to the solutions of society’s problems even as we pray that they are moved by and find God.

An agnostic who runs a soup kitchen or a food pantry or who fights for the rights of the poor or fights against racism ought not to be disdained by Christians just because he does not pray with us.

None of that speaks to my assertions. If a communist runs a soup kitchen and if that is equal to being a Catholic, why should anyone bother to join the Church?

If the Church has priests who equate social work with salvation, there is no zeal for evangelization. Our pagan culture preaches the same sermon.

 

[fix]

Matt25:

This is certainly true, but the reverse applies. All the personal holiness in the world will not save us if we do not feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

St James said this clearly- 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Jas 1

And St Paul said this

1 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ***
2*** And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ***
3*** If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love must express itself in deeds. Love of God overflows in prayer, song and praise.

Love of neighbour overflows in deeds like these-

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? ***
17*** So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. ***

Jas 2***

I have no argument with that. I say for the third time works of mercy are necessary, but not sufficient. The article you quote is along the lines of some in the Church that tend to minimize personal sanctification and prop up social work as the sole important Gospel message.
Our society knows well we need to help the poor. What we do not know is why Christ died for us, why sexual immorality kills the soul, why it matters to be Catholic, etc.

 

[marvin]

From: Instruction on Certain Aspects of “Theology of Liberation”
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith August 6, 1984

1. But the “theologies of liberation”, which reserve credit for restoring to a place of honor the great texts of the prophets and of the Gospel in defense of the poor, go on to a disastrous confusion between the poor of the Scripture and the proletariat of Marx. In this way they pervert the Christian meaning of the poor, and they transform the fight for the rights of the poor into a class fight within the ideological perspective of the class struggle. For them the Church of the poor signifies the Church of the class which has become aware of the requirements of the revolutionary struggle as a step toward liberation and which celebrates this liberation in its liturgy.

---

1. Moreover in setting aside the authoritative interpretation of the Church, denounced as classist, one is at the same time departing from tradition. In that way, one is robbed of an essential theological criterion of interpretation, and in the vacuum thus created, one welcomes the most radical theses of rationalist exegesis. Without a critical eye, one returns to the opposition of the “Jesus of history” versus the “Jesus of faith.”
2. Of course the creeds of the faith are literally preserved, especially the Chalcedonian creed, but a new meaning is given to them which is a negation of the faith of the Church. On one hand, the Christological doctrine of Tradition is rejected in the name of class; on the other hand, one claims to meet again the “Jesus of history” coming from the revolutionary experience of the struggle of the poor for their liberation.
3. One claims to be reliving an experience similar to that of Jesus. The experience of the poor struggling for their liberation, which was Jesus’ experience, would thus reveal, and it alone, the knowledge of the true God and the Kingdom.
4. Faith in the Incarnate Word, dead and risen for all men, and whom “God made Lord and Christ” [25] is denied. In its place is substituted a figure of Jesus who is a kind of symbol who sums up in Himself the requirements of the struggle of the oppressed.
5. An exclusively political interpretation is thus given to the death of Christ. In this way, its value for salvation and the whole economy of redemption is denied.

 

[fix]

**

WHAT THE CHURCH’S SOCIAL DOCTRINE IS BUILT ON

**According to Father Thomas Williams, Theology Dean at Regina Apostolorum

     ROME, 25 OCT. 2003 (ZENIT)

The Church makes clear that her social teaching is not a “third way,” some middle road between capitalism and socialism. It is not an economic or political agenda at all, and nor is it a “system.” Although it does, for example, offer a critique of socialism and capitalism, it does not propose an alternative system. It is not a technical proposal for solving practical problems, but rather a moral doctrine, arising from the Christian concept of man and his vocation to love and to eternal life. It is in a category of its own.
Catholic social teaching is not a static, fixed doctrine, but a dynamic application of Christ’s teaching to the changing realities and circumstances of human societies and cultures. Of course, the fundamental principles do not change, because they are deeply rooted in human nature. But its applications and contingent judgments adapt to new historical circumstances according to times and places.

     The Church's social doctrine belongs within the framework of theology         and especially moral theology...

ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/ZSOCDOCT.HTM

 

[koda]

There are seven words Jesus used that seem to dump all our efforts to fight poverty and injustice into the trashcan marked ‘futility’. And here they come - “The poor will always be with you”.’

Did Jesus really say this? Yes. But does this really mean poverty is something we should tolerate?

In fact, these words come in a context that has nothing to do with poverty directly. A woman poured expensive perfume from a jar onto Jesus’ head, working it reverently into Jesus’ hair. She is ahead of the game in understanding where Jesus was headed. For she is honoring him by mimicking the preparation of the dead for burial.

The disciples, full of self-righteousness, have nothing but criticism. “What a waste” is their reaction. The perfume could have been sold to help the poor. Jesus’ response is withering: “She has done a beautiful thing to me.” And it’s then he adds," The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."

The poor will always be with us because human sin prevents us from achieving perfect justice for the poor (or anyone else). Only Christ’s return will do that. Until then, the best we can hope for is to limit the suffering of the poor, not eliminate poverty. We cannot ever eliminate war, poverty, racism or any other sin. But in the end, only overcoming man’s sinful nature will eliminate human suffering. That final blow against sin will not be landed by us, but by Christ on his return. Until then, we are to help the poor as we can.

I do not think anyone is claiming that good works are sufficient for salvation. As for the agnostics who work in social justice, they don’t believe in salvation so I don’t see how they figure into the “good works = heaven” equation. Nor do I see anyone denying that sexual morality is important. There are many so-called Christians, especially right-wing fundamentalists, that believe people get what they deserve, sort of along the OT line that they are being punished for sin. These people totally ignore socical justice issues. So there you have the extreme of the other side and its unacceptable results.

 

[manualman]

Authentic christian care for the poor is a byproduct of a healthy faith.

Secular humanistic approaches to social justice focus on it as an end, not a product of a vibrant faith.

When I hear a priest express concerns that people are doing too much praying (my paraphrase), I AM concerned that he has lost his way. Even if he still has good and selfless intentions.