Redemptorist says "ghetto" piety sidelining social justice

[Brendan]

Arba Sicula:

Because it is justice directed towards society and social concerns. Legal justice is another form of justice, but is not necessarily connnected in any way to societal problems or to society in general. “Justice” alone is too broad.

Justice is a Cardinal Virtue. Is that definition too broad?
Should the Virtue be renamed?

It worked ‘as is’ for Aquinas, even though they had legal justice in the 13th century. What happend that the Church should no longer be interested in Justice for it’s own sake, in all it’s forms?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

fix:

If a communist runs a soup kitchen and if that is equal to being a Catholic, why should anyone bother to join the Church?

It’s not equal to being a Catholic; it’s equal to doing what Catholics do.

If the Church has priests who equate social work with salvation, there is no zeal for evangelization. Our pagan culture preaches the same sermon.

Catholicism has always condemned “works salvation.” Though we cannot be saved without works, I find it hard to believe that there are priests advocating straight works salvation - pelagianism.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

manualman:

When I hear a priest express concerns that people are doing too much praying (my paraphrase), I AM concerned that he has lost his way. Even if he still has good and selfless intentions.

What does he mean by that? If he means that he sees “too much praying” and too little charitable works, then I see his point. We must do both, not either/or to achieve our salvation.

 

[chrisb]

marvin:

Matt,

I think you need to read this,:newadvent.org/library/docs_df84lt.htm

Grace and Peace marvin,

That is one awesome article. Thanks for pointing it out!

Blessings.

 

[Matt25]

Incidentally the Instruction on Theology of Liberation makes the following important point-

This warning should in no way be interpreted as a disavowal of all those who want to respond generously and with an authentic evangelical spirit to the “preferential option for the poor.” It should not at all serve as an excuse for those who maintain the attitude of neutrality and indifference in the face of the tragic and pressing problems of human misery and injustice. It is, on the contrary, dictated by the certitude that the serious ideological deviations which it points out tends inevitably to betray the cause of the poor. More than ever, it is important that numerous Christians, whose faith is clear and who are committed to live the Christian life in its fullness, become involved in the struggle for justice, freedom, and human dignity because of their love for their disinherited, oppressed, and persecuted brothers and sisters. More than ever, the Church intends to condemn abuses, injustices, and attacks against freedom, wherever they occur and whoever commits them. She intends to struggle, by her own means, for the defense and advancement of the rights of mankind, especially of the poor.

 

[koda]

Matt25:

Incidentally the Instruction on Theology of Liberation makes the following important point-

This warning should in no way be interpreted as a disavowal of all those who want to respond generously and with an authentic evangelical spirit to the “preferential option for the poor.” It should not at all serve as an excuse for those who maintain the attitude of neutrality and indifference in the face of the tragic and pressing problems of human misery and injustice. It is, on the contrary, dictated by the certitude that the serious ideological deviations which it points out tends inevitably to betray the cause of the poor. More than ever, it is important that numerous Christians, whose faith is clear and who are committed to live the Christian life in its fullness, become involved in the struggle for justice, freedom, and human dignity because of their love for their disinherited, oppressed, and persecuted brothers and sisters. More than ever, the Church intends to condemn abuses, injustices, and attacks against freedom, wherever they occur and whoever commits them. She intends to struggle, by her own means, for the defense and advancement of the rights of mankind, especially of the poor.

Thanks Matt! Without you I’d have to do a lot more cutting and pasting.

 

[MiddleBear]

Matt25:

In what way does the posted article deride the supernatural realm?

The article derides the supernatural realm in a somewhat underhanded manner by accusing Catholics who pray traditional devotionals, (labelled them as conservative) as practicing “ghetto” piety. In the rhetorical lexicon of the left “ghetto” piety is a term used to mock the supernatual realm.

For example, when was the last time you met a “progressive” Catholic who has made the 9 First Fridays or the 5 First Saturdays devotions? Or who has encouraged other Catholics at you parish (or is that Catholic community?) to make these devotions.

For that matter, when have you heard a progressive Catholic say anything positive regarding the rosary?

Have you heard a progressive Catholic spread the information about the granting of a plenary indulgence during the Year of the Eucharist for praying before the Blessed Sacrament?

Probably not.

To me, this Redemptorist comes accross as a typical progressive Catholic who rarely if ever speaks about the Second Vatican Councils universal call to holiness.

Also the false dichotomy presented in this article is that by older devotionals, (praying rosary, or other established devotions) the person will not be charitable (not intersted in social justice).
This is utter nonsense.
From my experience, the most charitable Catholics that I meet are the ones who pray a lot of rosaries and pray frequently before the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[marvin]

Matt25:

Incidentally the Instruction on Theology of Liberation makes the following important point-

This warning should in no way be interpreted as a disavowal of all those who want to respond generously and with an authentic evangelical spirit to the “preferential option for the poor.” It should not at all serve as an excuse for those who maintain the attitude of neutrality and indifference in the face of the tragic and pressing problems of human misery and injustice. It is, on the contrary, dictated by the certitude that the serious ideological deviations which it points out tends inevitably to betray the cause of the poor. More than ever, it is important that numerous Christians, whose faith is clear and who are committed to live the Christian life in its fullness, become involved in the struggle for justice, freedom, and human dignity because of their love for their disinherited, oppressed, and persecuted brothers and sisters. More than ever, the Church intends to condemn abuses, injustices, and attacks against freedom, wherever they occur and whoever commits them. She intends to struggle, by her own means, for the defense and advancement of the rights of mankind, especially of the poor.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I have found that many of the people who talk social justice the most do it the least. They criticize others who are actually making a positive difference in others lives precisely because they do it in a way that does not make them beholden to the “social justice establishment.”

For the purposes of this discussion why don’t we discuss the rebuilding of NO. How should it be done? Should NO be rebuilt with government money and rebuilt just as it was as far as the social structure that was there before the hurricane? Or should a different NO be built which allows entrepreneurs to build it and allows the citizens to own the city?

Go for it.

Dan Lauffer

 

[fix]

MiddleBear:

Matt25:

To me, this Redemptorist comes accross as a typical progressive Catholic who rarely if ever speaks about the Second Vatican Councils universal call to holiness.

Also the false dichotomy presented in this article is that by older devotionals, (praying rosary, or other established devotions) the person will not be charitable (not intersted in social justice).
This is utter nonsense.
From my experience, the most charitable Catholics that I meet are the ones who pray a lot of rosaries and pray frequently before the Blessed Sacrament.

Bingo. The priest , like many, attempt to paint orthodox Catholics as uncaring toward the poor and simply legalistic. I think the opposite is more accurate. Many liberals make “social justice” the lone Gospel message in an attempt to marginalize truth.

We have no shortage of efforts aimed at reducing poverty. We have a shortage of priests, and laity, who stand up for the truth.

 

[BlindSheep]

Arba Sicula:

No, no. Just as the post above said, it’s the old-style devotionalism - the old ladies saying the Rosary during Mass sort of stuff. That looking inward takes away from the Church’s traditional social justice that is part of looking outward.

What really bugs 'em is the young ladies saying the Rosary during Mass!
True social justice has to flow from our relationship with Christ. The activism popular with liberals generally springs from the self, not Christ - which is why devotion disturbs them. More devotion will result in better action. Mother Teresa and her sisters always included time for adoration.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

It is certainly true that those who are more devotional are the ones actually doing work that lasts. I much more trust those who are actually doing the work and speaking only when necessary than those who talk a big game and condemn others for NOT doing what in fact they are NOT doing.

There is probably a direct relationship between the phenomenon of endless talking and no action and stillness and fruitful action.

Dan L

 

[fix]

GregoryPalamas:

I have found that many of the people who talk social justice the most do it the least. They criticize others who are actually making a positive difference in others lives precisely because they do it in a way that does not make them beholden to the “social justice establishment.”

Not only that, but when the attention is turned from “social justice” only then people become uneasy. It may mean examining things many prefer were never examined…

 

[jman507]

Did Jesus spend 40 days in the desert?
Did Jesus help the poor and the sinners?
Did Jesus follow the moral law?

Yes, Yes, Yes.

Personal devotion and social justice are both needed. We need to have mercy on others, but we also need to try to make sure they live a moral life. We need to have a balance, and even some will balance more a little bit one way or the other, but we do need concern for all sides.

If social justice is far more important than devotion, would you say that since this day is the Memorial of Saint Therese of the Child Jesus, she’s not so important?

I should say that you should thank God, that if your out on one of those Social Justice missions some old lady who never misses her devotions, who may have just spent her earlier years raising her family and after immagraiting helped with the building of a church and school in the area where she lives, might just be praying for you to give you grace for your work.

 

[grotto]

Anybody who can come up with a term of “ghetto piety” to describe devotional prayer needs some slap therapy!

 

[Guar_Fan]

grotto:

Anybody who can come up with a term of “ghetto piety” to describe devotional prayer needs some slap therapy!

I agree, but I don’t think anyone has used that phrase. The title of the article puts the two words together but they don’t appear that way in the text itself.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

MiddleBear:

Matt25:

The article derides the supernatural realm in a somewhat underhanded manner by accusing Catholics who pray traditional devotionals, (labelled them as conservative) as practicing “ghetto” piety. In the rhetorical lexicon of the left “ghetto” piety is a term used to mock the supernatual realm.

As Guar Fan said, “I don’t think anyone has used that phrase. The title of the article puts the two words together but they don’t appear that way in the text itself.” And, I’ve never seen the two words together either. So, where else, given that you are **directly **asserting that the phrase is part of the rhetoric of the left, has that phrase appeared? A citation please.

For example, when was the last time you met a “progressive” Catholic who has made the 9 First Fridays or the 5 First Saturdays devotions?

Do the “progressive” Catholics and the “pietistic” Catholics in your parish go around with signs around their neck identifying themselves as such? And, if not, how do you know who on the Communion line is one or the other?

Or who has encouraged other Catholics at you parish (or is that Catholic community?) to make these devotions.

How would you know?!! How would you know if some
“pietistic” Catholic did that?

For that matter, when have you heard a progressive Catholic say anything positive regarding the rosary?

I don’t see any “pietistic” Catholics standing outside after Mass saying that about the rosary, either.

Have you heard a progressive Catholic spread the information about the granting of a plenary indulgence during the Year of the Eucharist for praying before the Blessed Sacrament?

Is that an obligation we all have, whether liberal or not?

From my experience, the most charitable Catholics that I meet are the ones who pray a lot of rosaries and pray frequently before the Blessed Sacrament.

How do you know they’re the most charitable? Do they tell you how much they’ve given in donations that week? Do they tell you if they’ve worked in a soup kitchen that week? Do they list their charitable deeds to you?

Your post is full of assumptions, personal opinions, and labelling of people that I honestly think cannot be documented or substantiated.

 

[fix]

Arba Sicula:

MiddleBear:

As Guar Fan said, “I don’t think anyone has used that phrase. The title of the article puts the two words together but they don’t appear that way in the text itself.” And, I’ve never seen the two words together either. So, where else, given that you are **directly **

asserting that the phrase is part of the rhetoric of the left, has that phrase appeared? A citation please.

It is almost a distiction without a difference.

Directly from the article:

"Instead we see a very heavy stress on older forms of piety or devotionalism or mass displays of Catholic numbers. This seems to reflect a return to the old ghetto strategy, of circling the wagons in a hostile world, combined with a heavy stress on Church authority.

“This cleavage is reflected at many levels of the Church, and even in Rome. Debate revolves around the interpretation of [the Second Vatican Council’s Pastoral Constitution on] The Church in the Modern World and the social encyclicals, which are generally ignored or down-played by the conservative wings, except for the morals of sexuality and family life,” Fr Duncan asserts.

His intention is pretty clear. It is a gratuitous slap at orthodoxy.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

fix:

His intention is pretty clear. It is a gratuitous slap at orthodoxy.

It doesn’t come across like that to me, however.

I think we should not either pray or do, but both pray and do.

And if there’s any substance to your charge of a gratuitous slap, you might notice that the same is being done the other way on this thread. A charitable attitude is worthwhile, too.

 

[fix]

Arba Sicula:

It doesn’t come across like that to me, however.

I think we should not either pray or do, but both pray and do.

And if there’s any substance to your charge of a gratuitous slap, you might notice that the same is being done the other way on this thread. A charitable attitude is worthwhile, too.

Why deny the obvious? His words are for all to read.