Reduction of violence connected to the production and distribution of drugs

[oldcatholicguy]

But to deny that drugs play a roll in it? I know of many people who have failed drug tests and lost good jobs. I’ve seen others lose jobs for being late for work -a known attribute to drug use.

So it does play a role within our current modern day system.

No, I deny your claim that drugs are the root cause of poverty in the US.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There’s no way to calculate third party victims of the drug trade. In my opinion, getting to the root of the problem in South America would end a lot of problems in Mexico, the US, and abroad.

Economics doesn’t work like that. Demand always creates a supply. Remove the supply in South America and we’ll see a new source develop somewhere else. The only way to combat the drug issue is to reduce the demand. To date we haven’t done very well in that.

 

[freeRadical]

There’s no way to calculate third party victims of the drug trade. In my opinion, getting to the root of the problem in South America would end a lot of problems in Mexico, the US, and abroad.

Yes there is. Economists have done it. Milton Friedman, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on monetary theory, estimated that there were 10,000 extra homicides a year due to criminalization of drugs, and this was back in the 1980’s.

 

[freeRadical]

That really doesn’t make sense though. How could the legality of cocaine even slightly play a role in the creation of crack? Crack is a form of delivering the drug to the brain faster meant to achieve a greater “high”… It has nothing to do with concealment or legality.

Crack was invented because the cost of cocaine was too high. If cocaine had been legal, it wouldn’t have been so expensive. Therefore, crack never would have been invented. Even if it had, people would buy cocaine because it would not have been expensive. Cocaine is pure where crack is a diluted, unpurified form of cocaine. Drug dealers made more money off of crack then they did cocaine, therefore it only made sense for them to come up with a way to stretch their supply of cocaine.

 

[freeRadical]

It’s not a matter of arguing a point; it’s a matter of the reality we face on a daily basis. We already have many deaths due to impaired driving. Creating the environment for many more impaired drivers with the idea that we’ll punish the guilty doesn’t make much sense to me.

So what you are saying is that we should restrict what some may do because of what they or others might do? For example, we should not let people consume alcohol because they or somebody else might drive drunk?

 

[freeRadical]

Also, single parenthood is not a root cause of poverty at all.

There are many, many people would disagree with that. Look at the illegitimacy rate in the black community and compare that with their poverty rate.

 

[TEPO]

Okay fine. The hell with everything and everyone. Legalize all drugs who cares.

 

[weller2]

Yeah, I seriously doubt Mr. “I already have the structures in place to make, transport, and sell drugs without government interference and can keep all the profits” Drug Lord is going to decide it’s time to go legit.

But the mob is in this business only because it is immensely profitable – and it is immensely profitable because it is illegal.

A producer in Colombia gets paid around $800 per kilogram of cocaine. In NYC, the same kilogram costs $22000. That’s 2650% markup.

If cocaine was being delivered through legit channels, then I highly doubt that the retail price in NYC would exceed $2000 per kilogram (taxes and all).

 

[mikekle]

Okay fine. The hell with everything and everyone. Legalize all drugs who cares.

Legalizing it all has worked wonders in Portugal, who chose to legalize all drugs, their crime rates went way down, general drug use dropped in half, but you can google that information and see how legalizing drugs helped the communities.

It does not take a rocket scientist to realize legalizing it all would put the cartels and their hired killers out of business for good. People would no longer be killed and threatened over drugs or drug trade routes, crime would drop to almost nothing, as drug prices would be much much cheaper, they are only expensive because of the risk/ being illegal, they all come from natural growing plants and very cheap to produce, so no one would be robbing and holding places up for money anymore.

I cannot see any negatives from legalizing it all, but the US will not do this, or put the cartels out of business, your right, they COULD very easily, send in black ops troops and kill all of them, but Gee, I wonder why they have not done this…maybe because they are making money, keeping prisons filled to capacity, etc. The US Govt has a lot to loose if drugs are legal, plus it was proven the CIA was directly involved in the drug trade back in the 70s, so it is very possible, they are still involved.

 

[Catolico65]

Economics doesn’t work like that. Demand always creates a supply. Remove the supply in South America and we’ll see a new source develop somewhere else. The only way to combat the drug issue is to reduce the demand. To date we haven’t done very well in that.

From one old catholic guy to another I’m glad I’m not the only one that can see that south of the border is the cause of our drug problem. The real problem is that drugs have formed a very real part of the subculture of the US where it is openly or secretly respected. A perfect example are the attitudes of many if not most Californians regarding drug use and legalization.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Got any scholarly sources to back all of these claims up?

I believe NORMAL did a study…

To start off, I take a dim view of drug dealers, and those who prey on them. There is nothing of robin hood in a man who robs/kills a child selling drugs on a street corner.

People with experience in these matters know that most of these near hysterical claims about drug use are false. Facts you can easily find on the Bureau of Justice statistics web site. Will inform you that the greatest percent of incarcerated individuals are there for drug related crimes. Adult, and child. So, there is an obvious societal benefit to legalization of at least some recreational drugs. If the street drug market dries up, the dealers will as well. Granted, like the gangsters of old, they will find other revenue streams. But there will not be pre-teens hawking crack on the corner.

A further point of interest is the cost benefit analysis. Does the cost of our war on drugs reward us? (It does reward the enforcers with the value of property confiscated.) The right-wingers like to point out that as we are still seeing poverty, our “war on poverty” has failed. Well the same logic can be applied here.

ATB

 

[St_Francis]

From one old catholic guy to another I’m glad I’m not the only one that can see that south of the border is the cause of our drug problem. The real problem is that drugs have formed a very real part of the subculture of the US where it is openly or secretly respected. A perfect example are the attitudes of many if not most Californians regarding drug use and legalization.

Did you mean to write: …see that south of the border is the NOT cause of our drug problem?

 

[Catolico65]

Did you mean to write: …see that south of the border is the NOT cause of our drug problem?

Yes. Thanks.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

But the mob is in this business only because it is immensely profitable – and it is immensely profitable because it is illegal.

A producer in Colombia gets paid around $800 per kilogram of cocaine. In NYC, the same kilogram costs $22000. That’s 2650% markup.

If cocaine was being delivered through legit channels, then I highly doubt that the retail price in NYC would exceed $2000 per kilogram (taxes and all).

So NYC doesn’t have an issue with black market alcohol, tobacco, or textiles? Nevada doesn’t have an issue with illegal gambling or prostitution operations? Legalizing something doesn’t magically make the criminal side of it disappear.

Edit- Mark ups- Look into the legal drug industry for similar insane markups.

 

[_Abyssinia]

And I suppose you are not including alcohol and tobacco within the category of ‘drug’?

Is drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes therefore gravely sinful.

That is not a fact, that is simply your opinion. Portugal decriminalised drugs in 2001 and drug consumption has not risen. Drug related deaths has on the other hand fallen, as has the levels of HIV, and participation in drug rehabilitation programmes has risen.

But drugs are legalised. Tobacco and alcohol are legalised in your own country.

And it is quite astounding that you seem to define what is and what is not a drug, by what substances are and are not legal. If you were consistent and logical in your approach you would be calling for prohibition of alcohol and tobacco which are just as much drugs as cannabis and opium.

Heroine consumption rose 57.5% in recent years

Method for combating drugs is ‘pure disinformation’ — APLD President

At variance with what official agencies have recently disclosed, the problem of drug dependence in Portugal has never been more serious: Between 2001, the year the decriminalization law went into effect, and 2007, continued consumption of narcotics rose, in absolute terms, by 66%.

In this period In this period consumption increased 215% for cocaine, 85% for ecstasy, 57.5% for heroine and 37% for cannabis… These data are from a report of the Institute of Drugs and Drug Dependence (IDT), published in 2008.

Since decriminalization there has been a 50% increase in drug use among young people between the ages of 20 and 24. On the other hand, the number of persons who have experimented with illicit drugs at least once rose from 7.8% in 2001 to 12% in 2007 (IDT Report of Activities of Nov 2008).

renewamerica.com/columns/hank/110705

Full Portuguese language text:

saude.sapo.pt/noticias/saude-medicina/consumo-de-heroina-cresceu-57-5-nos-ultimos-anos.html

Portuguese ex - IDT 2008 November Activities Report says 800000 people (7.8%) had tried illict drugs at lease once in 2001, that increased to 1.3 million (12) in 2007

“There is a notorious growing consumption of cocaine in Portugal, although not as severe as that which is verifiable in Spain. The increase in consumption of cocaine is extremely problematic”. (EMCDDA Executive Director, Wolfgang Gotz, Lisbon, May 2009.)

“While amphetamines and cocaine consumption rates doubled in Portugal, cocaine drug seizures have increased sevenfold between 2001 and 2006, rating Portugal the sixth highest in the world.” (World Drug Report, June 2009.)

“Behind Luxembourg, Portugal is the European country with the highest rate of consistent drug users and IV heroin dependents”. (Portuguese Drug Situation Annual Report, 2006)

“Portugal keeps on being the country with the most cases of injected drug related AIDS (85 new cases per one million of citizens in 2005, while the majority of other EU countries do not exceed 5 cases per million) and the only one registering a recent increase. 36 more cases per one million of citizens were estimated in 2005 comparatively to 2004, when only 30 were referred. It is the only country recording a recent increase. 703 newly diagnosed infections, followed from a distance by Estonia with 191 and Latvia with 108 reported cases.” (EMCDDA, November 2007.)

“The highest HIV/AIDS mortality rates among drug users are reported for Portugal, followed by Estonia, Spain, Latvia and Italy; in most other countries the rates are low” (EMCDDA – November 2010).

“In Portugal, since decriminalization has been implemented in July 2001, the number of drug related homicides has increased by 40%. It was the only European country with a significant increase between 2001 and 2006.” (World Drug Report, June 2009.)

drugprevent.org.uk/ppp/2012/05/the-factual-picture-of-portuguese-drug-policy

 

[TEPO]

“In Portugal, since decriminalization has been implemented in July 2001, the number of drug related homicides has increased by 40%. It was the only European country with a significant increase between 2001 and 2006.” (World Drug Report, June 2009.).

Well, well, well… I guess that’s pretty much like a train wreck in regards to the argument of many on this thread. So much for legalizing and regulating drugs.

 

[TEPO]

Portuguese ex - IDT 2008 November Activities Report says 800000 people (7.8%) had tried illict drugs at lease once in 2001, that increased to 1.3 million (12) in 2007

Holy smokes! Thanks for the solid references Abyssinia. You always provide the best links!

 

[Brendan_64]

"The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Read more: Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME"

content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

 

[TEPO]

"The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Read more: Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME"

content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

The Time article you used sourced it’s information from the Libertarian group CATO… But — "However, Cato is not known to be a professional medical or scientific group, whose agenda is the health and welfare of their clients.
renewamerica.com/columns/hank/110705

…IOW, it is Catos agenda to promote drug legalization.

 

[weller2]

The Time article you used sourced it’s information from the Libertarian group CATO… But — "However, Cato is not known to be a professional medical or scientific group, whose agenda is the health and welfare of their clients.
renewamerica.com/columns/hank/110705

…IOW, it is Catos agenda to promote drug legalization.

But data is data – it probably comes from Portuguese government, and can be verified there.