Reeeally embarassing question on marital relations

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The day of your wedding, how did you define the marriage? What was your definition of marriage? What was the definition and the constitutive elements of the marital act?

If you did not know really, I think that you can get the declaration of nullity.
 
Victorious_song said:
So…I’m pretty much done for ten ways to Sunday…just wondering what to do.
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If you haven’t been married long and you have no children, get out now. There are reasons the Church has annulment procedures. Though, since you will never remarry, it doesn’t matter.

BTW, you sound like you were pretty naive. What makes you think it’s “not him?” Sounds to me like it most definitely is him. In any case, my advice is get a lawyer.
 
Grace and Peace to all,

I read this thread and was really shocked by the whole situation of the OP.

I don’t have anything to add to this thread but I think a general discussion on relationships would be in order. I get the impression that the OP thought marriage was more like being one’s room mate without any obligation to a physical relationship. I’m not sure how one could reach such an understanding of marriage in our oversexed society but there you have it.

I wonder if her disgust of sex is aimed at her husband or the thought of it in general? There does seem to be a great deal of resentment targeted at him from the OP.

That kind of resentment could very well express itself in a disgust of any physical encounter with the spouse.

I hold her and her situation with great sympathy. Lord have mercy.
 
chrisb said:
Grace and Peace to all,

I read this thread and was really shocked by the whole situation of the OP.

I don’t have anything to add to this thread but I think a general discussion on relationships would be in order. I get the impression that the OP thought marriage was more like being one’s room mate without any obligation to a physical relationship…
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I didn’t get that impression at all. I thought she just anticipated liking sex, instead of hating it. Without getting way over specific, there’s no way to know how bad the husband is, but he sounds pretty bad. And OP seems too naive to know. Either he goes with her to straighten this out, or she needs a different lifemate.

No one is obligated to be the object of someone’s lust and right now, that’s all we have: his lust without caring a bit for her feelings, from what she has said.
 
To the OP:

I’ve read this full thread and I do not believe that it is helpful, partially because you are responding with such anger.

I’m sorry that sex is a negative experience for you. It may cease to be so if you listen to what others have to say about it with a more open mind and without biting anyone’s head off or calling it nasty names. The Church teaches - and I think most married couples would attest to this in their own experience - that it is beautiful, unitive, and life-giving.

The practical advice about therapy and annulment is all very good as well… But again preaching about how nasty you feel sex is doesn’t help things here!
 
First off, the OP is in my prayers for guidance & to know she is loved by God.

Secondly, I am very dismayed at the angry attack at the Catholic Church. All Christian (& Jewish & Muslim) houses of worship (as far as I am aware) believe the marital act to be a requirement of marriage. As someone said, it is even in the vows. It sounds as though both parties are very immature.

Sex between a loving couple is a beautiful gift, a mutual sharing of love. It is normal to not be attracted to the other if there is anger & resentment & the OP seems to be very angry & bitter. As the others have said, please go see your priest. Have the courage to speak with your husband about how you feel. I commend you for seeing a therapist, that shows some attempt at working at things but at the risk of being blunt, you went thru with the marriage, said the vows so take some grown up responsibility for things & stop saying “nobody told me” & take some of the blame yourself.

I wish both of you the best.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
Question: how does one not know these “rules” at the time of their wedding? It’s in the VOWS. Also, I’d also think the priest who did pre marriage counseling with the couple (and who also had to assess if this couple was even fit to be married) would have filled them in on all if this.
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the “vows” say nothign about, “will you become an object for your husband to use? Will you let yoru body become his property and do you realize it can be a mortal sin to say no” They don’t say that. NO ONE said that to me! ALl I was taught was, Hey! Sex is a pretty cool thing! Just don’t have it before marriage!

You people seem to have misunderstood everythign I said. I’m not an idiot. I know sex is a part of marriage. I expected to like it for the good it supposedly is. Forgive me for assuming I was allowed the basic human dignity to say, no, honey, I dont want to right now! Did you guys seriously get taught that in pre-cana? You act like it’s common knowledge, but that was never brought up! Not once! ALl we ever got in the way of sex ed was Yeah, God made sex, it’s good, share it with your spouse, etc etc. No one told me how much I’d hate it and how sick it would make me to even think about it. And NO ONE EVER TOLD ME NOT HAVING SEX WAS A SIN
 
IbnFiktur said:
To the OP:

I’ve read this full thread and I do not believe that it is helpful, partially because you are responding with such anger.

I’m sorry that sex is a negative experience for you. It may cease to be so if you listen to what others have to say about it with a more open mind and without biting anyone’s head off or calling it nasty names. The Church teaches - and I think most married couples would attest to this in their own experience - that it is beautiful, unitive, and life-giving.

The practical advice about therapy and annulment is all very good as well… But again preaching about how nasty you feel sex is doesn’t help things here!
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Right. So. telling people my prblem won’t fix my problem. That makes sense. Not.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
My cousin just got married so I saw what they went through. They had to understand fully what marriage is about before the priest would marry them.

So did the priest in this case go through that or is the OP choosing not to remember those thigs? Even if the priest didn’t, its in the vows. Surely the vows would make you think when speaking those words.

I don’t know if just regretting marrying a person because theyre not what you expected them to ne afterall qualifies for an annulment, but that’s why she should be having this case looked at now by people who know.
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No, seriously. What vows did YOU get read? There was NOTHING in MY vows about being required to have sex even if you didn’t want it. Nothing I was ever taught, PERIOD, gave any indication that sex was required under pain of sin. I was taught that it was a good and unitive thing, but was never taught there were rules about when you were allowed to say no, or that you had to have it if you found out you didn’t like it. It was good. If you liked it, go for it. If not, oh well.
 
katrntogo said:
First off, the OP is in my prayers for guidance & to know she is loved by God.

Secondly, I am very dismayed at the angry attack at the Catholic Church. All Christian (& Jewish & Muslim) houses of worship (as far as I am aware) believe the marital act to be a requirement of marriage. As someone said, it is even in the vows. It sounds as though both parties are very immature.

Sex between a loving couple is a beautiful gift, a mutual sharing of love. It is normal to not be attracted to the other if there is anger & resentment & the OP seems to be very angry & bitter. As the others have said, please go see your priest. Have the courage to speak with your husband about how you feel. I commend you for seeing a therapist, that shows some attempt at working at things but at the risk of being blunt, you went thru with the marriage, said the vows so take some grown up responsibility for things & stop saying “nobody told me” & take some of the blame yourself.

I wish both of you the best.
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HOW ARE THESE THINGS IN THE VOWS? I do not GET it! What the HELL kind of vows did you guys SAY? We were dispensed to maryr in his church, and we vowed to love each other, be open to life, respect one another and form a lifelong commintment. Yeah. I don’t see where in these vows it says “If you tell your husband no, you’re going to hell.”

And oh, that’s nice. “it’s still your fault even if no one ever taught you that/” How the hell was I suppose to know? Nothing I’d ever read even gave me ANY indication that the church had a teaching about this? what else do you EXPECT me to say? What blame here is mine, aside from the stupidity I’d already admitted to? it’s TRUE. NO ONE ever told me such rules existed, and I had no idea. So now I’M the bad guy for not agreeing with someone I had no idea about to begin with?
 
Victorious_song, I’ll say it again. Sex isn’t your main problem.

Yes, when two people become one flesh that implies that they have sex. It implies that they are totally open to each other. It seems reasonable in that context that one would not refuse the other except for a serious reason, like a cold or pain or extreme tiredness.

So, your problem is not with sex. It’s with being open to your husband. It’s with wanting to build a life with him. Of course, if you don’t want to talk to him you probably also don’t want to be intimate with him. In that context, don’t focus of sex or refusal or lack of a right to refusal or whatever. Focus on solving your problem of being in a marriage you don’t want to be in.

When you have a proper understanding of marriage and you have married the right man, you will probably not have these negative feelings.
 
Victorious_song said:
HOW ARE THESE THINGS IN THE VOWS? I do not GET it! What the HELL kind of vows did you guys SAY? We were dispensed to maryr in his church, and we vowed to love each other, be open to life, respect one another and form a lifelong commintment. Yeah. I don’t see where in these vows it says “If you tell your husband no, you’re going to hell.”

And oh, that’s nice. “it’s still your fault even if no one ever taught you that/” How the hell was I suppose to know? Nothing I’d ever read even gave me ANY indication that the church had a teaching about this? what else do you EXPECT me to say? What blame here is mine, aside from the stupidity I’d already admitted to? it’s TRUE. NO ONE ever told me such rules existed, and I had no idea. So now I’M the bad guy for not agreeing with someone I had no idea about to begin with?
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Ignorance of the sexed and sexual state of marriage with the corollaries: to life with man (a male, her husband), the fact of giving mutually and reciprocaly its own body for making one flesh, in the human fashion, with sexual cooperation and not like the animals (holy sex, holy erotism, sexual activity), the right on the body (sexual touchings, intimate caresses, sexual preliminaries for leading marital act, natural presumption of sexual caresses made by the other spouse on the body of the other): sexual conjugal intimacy. But also physical love without sex, physical tenderness). Marriage is a sexed and sexual contract and an sexed and sexual institution: Marital debt of marital act (right, obligation and duty) for each one. The vows of marriage concerning the fact of making one flesh ( union of bodies with all corollaries): to give and to offer its own body, and to receive the body of the other, to do something on the body of the other for helping the union of bodies (passive part and active part of each member of couple). The sexual manner of marriage seems to me very natural, very human and so instinctive (in the heart of human beings). The day of your marriage, did you want, did you desire, did you agree with the reception of kids given by God during the marital act? yes or no? Baby means conjugal sex!!!

In one year of marriage, have you made love with your husband? Did you consummate completely your marriage via the conjugal act? Do you want a babies? What are the functions of marital act? Do you know that?

You are not a bad wife, you were, only, too young and not ready to understanding the whole teaching of catholic chuch. It is not your fault, may be the priest was not capable to explain to you the big issues of marriage about sex. You need to talk with a very smart priest, very capable to understand your situation in order to help you to get the declaration of nullity of this “marriage”.
 
Hi, Victorious_Song, I’m sorry that you’re going through all of this. You sound as though you’re about to break. Please consider going to a physician to see if he can help you cope with the trauma in your life right now. I’ve found that eating properly and taking a good (search health sights on the Internet) multi-vitamin, a good multi-mineral, and extra multi-B help me to cope with problems better than when I don’t take them. I think of them as my “life packs” because without them I can become too overwrought when hit with some of the double whammies that life deals out.

You might also consider mulling over a reply before responding. Sometimes a time lapse from the point of reading to the point of replying helps to prevent overreaction by both the poster and the reader, and gives all the opportunity to avoid making snap judgments that result in harsh words or ill feelings.

We’re frequently exasperated by the situations in which we find ourselves, especially when we realize that we were part of that reason to begin with, so it’s understandable that you blame yourself for marrying to get out of a difficult home situation. In so many aspects of life, we’re swept along by the circumstances. Part of that may be due to our rushed lives and our need to be seen as being an agreeable person.

Unfortunately, much of life is learning to interpret euphemisms, and they are rampant when it comes to describing the physical aspects of marriage intimacy, and exactly what happens when sex–the conjugal act–occurs. Yes, officially, the obligations of man and wife to each other are included in the marriage vows, but very eumphemistically. When you’re young you think of the romantic idea of living to be old together and getting to that point with years of shared love in everything you do as you create the perfect storybook life for that family you’ll someday have. Then reality hits!

For a bride who’s not “fooled around,” the wedding night is one of the most traumatic events in life, even when she loves her husband with deep conviction. Now, see! I said “wedding night,” and each reader has his/her own interpretation, based upon what he/she has personally experienced, or think it would be like, based upon reading, conversations, and movies. Supposedly, the meaning of “wedding night” is understood, but “wedding night” is a euphemism. My point is that the understanding is determined by the scope of information possessed by anyone hearing the term, and the wedding vows do contain euphemisms; they don’t mention specifics.

Pre-Cana classes are as good as they are thorough, and they are as thorough as the teachers are comfortable with being. When I went through pre-Cana, euphemisms were the required order of the day. “Without going into specifics,” prefaced or concluded statement after statement, and we also repeatedly heard, “…but we won’t get into that.” We wasted our time going to classes for those discussions, because there weren’t any that dealt with the nitty gritty–no specifics. We learned no more in them than we did when we read what little (eumphemistic) literature existed.

I wonder, of all the readers of the threads that have pertained to the marriage bed, how many have learned more on CAF about the “rules” of the Church than they have EVER heard in any other aspect of Church life? I’ve seen canon laws here that I never knew existed, as they were never presented in any form by a priest, and I’ve never seen them printed in Catholic newspapers or magazines. I’m not saying that such sources for learning about canon laws don’t exist, but I’m an avid reader, and I’ve never seen most all of what I’ve read here.
 
Victorious_song said:
HOW ARE THESE THINGS IN THE VOWS? I do not GET it! What the HELL kind of vows did you guys SAY? We were dispensed to maryr in his church, and we vowed to love each other, be open to life, respect one another and form a lifelong commintment. Yeah. I don’t see where in these vows it says “If you tell your husband no, you’re going to hell.”

And oh, that’s nice. “it’s still your fault even if no one ever taught you that/” How the hell was I suppose to know? Nothing I’d ever read even gave me ANY indication that the church had a teaching about this? what else do you EXPECT me to say? What blame here is mine, aside from the stupidity I’d already admitted to? it’s TRUE. NO ONE ever told me such rules existed, and I had no idea. So now I’M the bad guy for not agreeing with someone I had no idea about to begin with?
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Now, you need to know what you want for your future and his future.

To try with him in the respect of the sexed and sexual state of marriage
or
To get the declaration of nullity of your marriage in order to keep going your life and may be in the several years, to find out a man, with who it will be possible to marry within catholic church and to be happy, by knowing really the hard core of the catholic teaching on the marriage (the rights…etc). I hope the best for your future.

All the best,
In Domino
 
fpt said:
To try with him in the respect of the sexed and sexual state of marriage
or
To get the declaration of nullity of your marriage in order to keep going your life and may be in the several years, to find out a man, with who it will be possible to marry within catholic church and to be happy, by knowing really the hard core of the catholic teaching on the marriage (the rights…etc). I hope the best for your future.

All the best,
In Domino
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I’ve been voting for annulment all along. BTW, people on forums aren’t the authorities on Church teaching. Go see your Pastor. Then see the lawyer.

But let’s pretend for a moment that your husband was as naive and inexperienced as you are. Instead of being a cruel fiend who enjoys making you suffer, maybe he’s just a clumsy oaf who has no idea what he is doing and is embarrassed about it. And let’s also pretend there is no trauma in your background you’ve repressed that makes sexual contact unendurable. You’re just an ignorant girl who has no idea what to do or expect.

And then let’s pretend you actually love one another and want to please each other and are willing, like grown-ups, to take equal responsibility.

Try the library or Amazon for books on how to do sex. They have pictures! There are DVDs about it.

Either get out before you end up pregnant which would be a disaster or insist on doing something about it.
 
@Julia Mae
I think your too flippant about advising they try and seek an annulment which they are in no way guaranteed to get. The oath they made before God when they invoked his name means something, and they should do whatever they can to make it work. 5 weeks is a paltry amount of time compared to what many others have gone through to save their marriages. She didn’t say she was being abused so I see no reason she should immediately seek to get out. If she needs to lay down the law with her husband to get him to wake up and start going to a counselor with her so be it. I would recommend she lets her husband know directly that their marriage is going downhill unless he is willing to talk through their issues at some kind of marriage counseling.

book recommendation for op: Catholic for a Reason IV by Scott Hahn
 
From what you posted it seems you got married for all the wrong reasons and did not take much time to date and learn about your husband.

Did you ever have any sexual attractions toward him or to any other man? Your therapist should help you find out if it’s because of your attitude toward sex or just in a bad marriage to a man you don’t really like to begin with.

You need to decide if you want to work on staying and learning how to love and want him sexually or get out before any children come along. That would be the biggest problem, to have a child involved in this. That is why I mentioned annulment before this all gets to be more disastrous to bring a child into it.

There are women out there that only marry a guy so they can have a child and that is wrong as well. You are not doing that or just using your husband for your own selfish wishes. I applaud you for that. Those marriages never work either but then a child has to suffer as well.

You are on the right track with therapy so don’t let your husband talk you out of it.
 
Your husband should be helped by a priest, a doctor, a nurse, an ethicist and by a therapist because there was a donation of his body to you, the day of your marriage. He has the moral obligation and the moral duty, toward you, to go to a therapist with you or at least alone. That is his moral duty, and it is your moral right of asking him: your husband does not respect your rights on him. That is sad and not very christian.
 
Victorious_song said:
Right. So. telling people my prblem won’t fix my problem. That makes sense. Not.
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That’s not what I said. I said the responding with anger and snippy remarks (as in the above post) you’re not helping anyone help you, and you’re certainly not helping yourself.
 
Honestly, I am very astonished of noting that a preparation of catholic marriage can have full of misunderstandings, and is not capable to give complete information. It is sad, it is scary. Do you know if the local bishop evaluates the pre cana praparation? Who are the couples who help? What formation of priests about this state of conjugal life???
 
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