Reference for 33,000+ Protestant denominations

[TriuneUnity]

TriUn << I am just happy there is only one Lutheran denomination, and 242 Roman Catholic ones. Whew. >>

Ah ah ah not so fast. The 242 is kinda weird I’ll admit…but…as I provide the stats in my article:

Lutherans (61 million members, 253 denominations) [year 2000 numbers]

So sorry, you beat us by a couple. And Lutherans are not even in all 242 countries (I do not think).

Phil P

Probably not; the Evangelical Lutheran Desert Mission of Libya closed down when they found out that the country doesn’t allow alcohol.

 

[Returnee]

This is an easy calculation.

There are 245 countries.

We subtract one because it is The Vatican.

That leaves 244.

If we really, really generously assumed that every single one of the 244 had every single Protestant denomination represented (an impossibility due to the number which have state religions and do not tolerate such presence; e.g., Saudi Arabia), then we divide the 33,000 by 244 and get 136 Protestant denominations, representing the absolute floor for this number.

Even were we to grant this ridiculously optimistic estimate (according to the Handbook of Denominations in the United States 12 edition there are 156 major Protestant denominations in the U.S. alone), 136 is enormously bigger than the three founded by Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli in the 16th century and more than 2 orders of magnitude bigger than the Catholic Church.

Unity is not the Protestant strong suit, by any means, is it?

I think this is the best way to approach/represent the situation. IOW, the take home message here is for all Catholics everywhere to quit saying “There are 10,000, 20,000, 30,000+ Protestant denominations”, because it’s simply not supportable.

What IS supportable is that, (now that we know where the number of “30,000” comes from, and how it was [erroneously, for our apologetic purposes] determined), once we “divide out by country” as Phil Vaz said and you, Teflon, have done, we come up with a bare minimum number of 136 Protestant denominations.

Rounded to 130, or maybe even all the way down to 100 (it could even go as low as TWO individual denominations, if one wishes to be so cantankerous, or obtuse, as to not even accept the 100 number, and no one anywhere can deny that there are at LEAST, TWO Protestant denominations), this STILL drives home the point that the so-called “invisible church” has no unity at all, because ultimately, “unity” is defined as ONE.

 

[Teflon93]

I think this is the best way to approach/represent the situation. IOW, the take home message here is for all Catholics everywhere to quit saying “There are 10,000, 20,000, 30,000+ Protestant denominations”, because it’s simply not supportable.

What IS supportable is that, (now that we know where the number of “30,000” comes from, and how it was [erroneously, for our apologetic purposes] determined), once we “divide out by country” as Phil Vaz said and you, Teflon, have done, we come up with a bare minimum number of 136 Protestant denominations.

Rounded to 130, or maybe even all the way down to 100 (it could even go as low as TWO individual denominations, if one wishes to be so cantankerous, or obtuse, as to not even accept the 100 number, and no one anywhere can deny that there are at LEAST, TWO Protestant denominations), this STILL drives home the point that the so-called “invisible church” has no unity at all, because ultimately, “unity” is defined as ONE.

Absolutely. The Protestant Reformation started with one group—Martin Luther’s—breaking off from the Church. It quickly became 4 when Calvin and Zwingli and Elizabeth I joined the fray. Within a century, dozens if not hundreds more were on the scene. This division has continued to the present day, to the point where we cannot even count it in the old fashion, by pointing to the heads of each major faction not in communion with one another.

The question has thus largely resolved to “what do you call yourselves?” rather than “what do you believe?” or “who’s the person in charge?” Protestants try to dodge this lack of unity by claiming Jesus is in charge, as though such a cacophony of contradictory theologies were what the Lord promised for his Church.

33,000 is certainly plausible in the sense that Protestants do not recognize clerical authority in the same sense that Catholics and Orthodox do, as seen by the fundamentalists (congregational pastor is the highest authority which laymen recognize, and only then when acting in concert with elders) and the “nondenominationals” (the highest authority is the individual layman following wherever the Holy Spirit may seem to guide them in matters great and small).

The correct answer to “How many Protestant denominations are there?” would seem therefore to be “…somewhere between several hundred and several hundred million.”

The correct theological answer is of course, “Far too many.”

The debate over the arithmetic does tend to obscure this fact. Anyone who cares to can dig up the references and the dizzying array of Protestant denominations relative to Catholic and Orthodox at their leisure, or follow the ongoing drama of perpetual schism in their local newspapers and church bulletins.

It is the tragedy of Protestantism that once they began dissenting from the Church they found it impossible to stop, much even to the Reformers’ chagrin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The question to ask here is how many Protestant denominations will there be at the current trend of growth in Protestant splinter groups. Forgetting for the moment the super-aggregators of such all-in-one tax-exempt “mega bible churches” which offer free day care, entertainment, socials, food services etc. to gobble up their mom-n-pop bubba-bible competitor churches and also the traditionalist such as Lutherans and Methodists etc. it easy to calculate. Consider the inescapable truth that in the limit every “bible only” Protestant who can strap on his KJV will eventually, through the principal of “private interpretation” (aka - a self teaching bible) be his or her own church. That large number will completely wash out the smaller numbers in the traditional protestant denominations and eventually pull them all out of those faiths as well.

So the answer is in the limit the number of Protestant sects will be “each person their own church”. That will be well over 700 million or so within 20 years. What a rabble Luther set in motion…

James

 

[MarcoPolo]

Absolutely. The Protestant Reformation started with one group—Martin Luther’s—breaking off from the Church. It quickly became 4 when Calvin and Zwingli and Elizabeth I joined the fray. Within a century, dozens if not hundreds more were on the scene.

Am I getting the feeling there are non-Catholics in this thread who are arguing to the effect of Hey, it’s not 33,000…it’s only 9,000 !!

 

[Teflon93]

Am I getting the feeling there are non-Catholics in this thread who are arguing to the effect of Hey, it’s not 33,000…it’s only 9,000 !!

They certainly are not arguing strategies to get the number back down to something reasonable.

Even were the number 4, as it was around 1600, Christian unity would be far more attainable in that case.

Can you imagine a Christian ecumenical council given the current chaos?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Can you imagine a Christian ecumenical council given the current chaos?

You could obviously not get all denominations to even show up. “United States Reformed” preacher John MacArthur does not believe in even meeting with Catholics, who are of course a cover for Satan. And he’s no doubt alone.

In fact I see today on his homepage, he has a featured article “Is Roman Catholicism Biblical” (and includes as his critique that Catholics don’t accept the “Biblical” teaching of Sola Scriptura.) Does it get any better?

 

[jmcrae]

So you are now admitting that the links you posted as evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations was a mistake. Also your new attempt at giving evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations is wrong too. You need to check your sources before you post them as evidence.

.

No. He is saying that he referred the OP to a book; not to a web site.

The fact that the number 30,000 is not likely to be accurate is a completely separate issue which he did not address at all, in either direction.

In actuality, there are somewhere between 132 and 9,000 non-Catholic ecclesial communities, depending on how broadly or narrowly they are defined.

 

[Teflon93]

No. He is saying that he referred the OP to a book; not to a web site.

The fact that the number 30,000 is not likely to be accurate is a completely separate issue which he did not address at all, in either direction.

In actuality, there are somewhere between 132 and 9,000 non-Catholic ecclesial communities, depending on how broadly or narrowly they are defined.

Indeed, there is no check whatsoever on someone founding such a community. The Catholic and Orthodox can deny such a community access to sacraments; there is simply no similar Protestant authority, which is why schism within them tends to be a battle over property.

BTW, the excellent Robert Duvall movie “The Apostle” demonstrates this aspect of Protestantism quite well. Renovate a building, preach on Sunday, collect the tithes, have members draw more in, and repeat. Protestant denominations = Protestant denominations + 1.

 

[emeraldisle]

Am I getting the feeling there are non-Catholics in this thread who are arguing to the effect of Hey, it’s not 33,000…it’s only 9,000 !!

I was addressing the OP’s question and the fact that another poster in this thread attempted to present evidence to prove that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations. Of course this flimsy evidence was false.

People need to check their sources before they post them as evidence in these forums.

.

 

[cfrancis]

I was addressing the OP’s question and the fact that another poster in this thread attempted to present evidence to prove that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations. Of course this flimsy evidence was false.

People need to check their sources before they post them as evidence in these forums.

.

What source would you provide as evidence?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So you are now admitting that the links you posted as evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations was a mistake. Also your new attempt at giving evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations is wrong too. You need to check your sources before you post them as evidence.

.

The book sites 33,000plus denominations the link does not.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I was addressing the OP’s question and the fact that another poster in this thread attempted to present evidence to prove that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations. Of course this flimsy evidence was false.

People need to check their sources before they post them as evidence in these forums.

.

The sources I did check. I’m pretty sure of it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So you are now admitting that the links you posted as evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations was a mistake. Also your new attempt at giving evidence for 33,000+ Protestant denominations is wrong too. You need to check your sources before you post them as evidence.

.

The link as I stated cited the source which came from the book where I refer too. I don’t think it is mistake. I’m pretty sure the calculation of the 33,000 derives from the book. Protestantism continue to split to the present day.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I like to add that Wikipedia states the following

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

Protestants often refer to specific Protestant churches and groups as denominations to imply that they are differently named parts of the whole church. This “invisible unity” is assumed to be imperfectly displayed, visibly: some denominations are less accepting of others, and the basic orthodoxy of some is questioned by most of the others. Individual denominations also have formed over very subtle theological differences. Other denominations are simply regional or ethnic expressions of the same beliefs. The actual number of distinct denominations is hard to calculate, but has been estimated to be over thirty thousand. Various ecumenical movements have attempted cooperation or reorganization of Protestant churches, according to various models of union, but divisions continue to outpace unions, as there is no overarching authority to which any of the sects owe allegiance, which can authoritatively define the faith. Most denominations share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines, although what is major and what is secondary is a matter of idiosyncratic belief. There are “over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries” and every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations.[5] According to David Barrett’s study (1970), there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism.

There are about 800 million Protestants worldwide,[6] among approximately 1.5 billion Christians.[7][8] These include 170 million in North America, 160 million in Africa, 120 million in Europe, 70 million in Latin America, 60 million in Asia, and 10 million in Oceania.

Protestants can be differentiated according to how they have been influenced by important movements since the magisterial Reformation and the Puritan Reformation in England. Some of these movements have a common lineage, sometimes directly spawning later movements in the same groups. Only general families are listed here (due to the above-stated multitude of denominations); some of these groups do not consider themselves as part of the Protestant movement, but are generally viewed as such by the public at large:

 

[emeraldisle]

The link as I stated cited the source which came from the book where I refer too. I don’t think it is mistake. I’m pretty sure the calculation of the 33,000 derives from the book. Protestantism continue to split to the present day.

When you’re in a hole you need to stop digging

.

 

[emeraldisle]

I like to add that Wikipedia states the following

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

Must be getting desperate when you have to use wikipedia as your source.

Just learn the lesson that you should check your sources before you post them as evidence for your ideas.

.

 

[Teflon93]

Must be getting desperate when you have to use wikipedia as your source.

Just learn the lesson that you should check your sources before you post them as evidence for your ideas.

.

I’m sorry, but I’ve missed where you’ve presented evidence.

What is the correct number of Protestant denominations?

Let’s see your evidence.

 

[sebestt]

IMO, there are way too many based on their own personal, fallible interpretation of scripture. I find it scary that someone without knowledge of scripture would found a church and then actively seek out a congregation and actually unintentionally mislead them based on that.

 

[PhilVaz]

Teflon << What is the correct number of Protestant denominations? Let’s see your evidence. >>

OK I’ll give this a shot. Let’s throw out the 33,000 number and start over.

PART I: The mega-bloc “PROTESTANTS” (about 9000 “denominations” in 242 total countries)

Here are the major Protestant groupings according to World Christian Encyclopedia –

– Adventist
– Baptist
– Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Open only)
– Congregational, Congregationalist
– Disciple, Restorationist, Restorationist Baptist, Christian
– Dunker (Tunker), Dipper, German Baptist, Brethren
– Exclusive Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Closed, Strict)
– Anglican Evangelical, Independent Evangelical
– Fundamentalist
– Holiness (Conservative Methodist, Wesleyan, Free Methodist)
– Lutheran / Reformed united church or joint mission
– Lutheran
– Mennonite, Anabaptist (Left Wing or Radical Reformation)
– Methodist (mainline Methodist, United Methodist)
– Moravian (Continental Pietist)
– Nondenominational (no church or anti-church groups)
– Oneness-Pentecostal or Unitarian-Pentecostal: Jesus Only
– Baptistic-Pentecostal or Keswick-Pentecostal
– Holiness-Pentecostal: 3-crisis-experience
– Apostolic, or Pentecostal Apostolic (living apostles)
– Pentecostal (Protestant; Classical Pentecostal)
– Friends (Quaker)
– Reformed, Presbyterian
– Salvationist (Salvation Army)
– United church (union of bodies of different traditions)
– Waldensian
– community church or union congregation

That gives us 27 major “groups” (not individual denominations, but major groups) to start with. If we throw out the “Oneness” groups as pseudo-Christian, that’s 26. Now the WCE also suggests that inside these are further “denominations” and the 8 largest of these are:

Baptistic-Pentecostal/Keswick have 396 denominations
Baptists have 322 denoms
Reformed/Presbyterian have 300 denoms
Lutherans have 253 denoms
Adventist groups have 218 denoms
Methodists have 123 denoms
United church have 54 denoms
Lutheran/Reformed united have 24 denoms

Next, we need to divide out and subtract (i.e. ignore) those denomination names that are “duplicated” in other countries. We want total “unique” denominations, not those duplicated in other countries. So we must get out our 876 page volume 1 of the WCE and tediously begin with a yellow pen and highlite only those denomination names that are unique, country by country, page by page in volume 1. Should take about 75 hours to complete.

PART II: The mega-bloc “INDEPENDENTS” (about 22000 “denominations” in 242 total countries)

Next we move to those “Independent” groups that are “Protestant” (not Catholic, Orthodox, or “marginal” pseudo-Christian “cults”). I’ve done the “calculation” on this one (not very scientific but at least going by the names) and I get 97% of these Independent groups are Protestant. As I’ve stated in my article, the majority (about 53%) of these “Indies” are the following “Giant Three” :

– “African independent pentecostal” in 5385 separate denoms
– “African neocharismatic of mixed traditions” in 3333 separate denoms
– “White-led charismatic” in 2856 separate denoms

That’s over half of the 22000 Indies and the next step is to divide out and subtract (i.e. ignore) those duplicated in other countries. That would probably lower the 5385, 3333, and 2856 numbers quite a bit. Get your yellow highliter out, another 75 hours of work.

Now we deal with the rest of the Protestant “Indies” and the biggest of these are:

813 White-led pentecostal
805 single autonomous congregations
644 Latin American pentecostal
609 African Independent Charismatic
475 Indian Charismatic
439 African Independent Spiritual
343 Afro-Caribbean pentecostal
300 Brazilian grassroots
281 Filipino neocharismatic
281 Latin American grassroots
271 Independent Baptist
236 Nondenominational (no church or anti-church)
226 White-led Full Gospel
225 ethnic or monoethnic denomination
221 Brazilian/Portuguese pentecostal
208 Irvingites, an Anglican/Presbyterian/Adventist sect
177 Indonesian pentecostal
167 Korean pentecostal (mixed traditions)
158 Zionist African Independent
136 Independent Reformed, Presbyterian
133 Independent Disciple, Restorationist, Christian
133 Black American Oneness pentecostal
102 Arab Charismatic

Again, find the “duplicates” in other countries, divide and subtract those out. The remaining Protestant “Indies” groups are “under 100 denominations” each or are Catholic/Orthodox offshoot sects or Marginal groups and a couple other pseudo-Christian “weird” groups.

Bottom line: final answer to “number of Protestant denominations” is…

HELLUVA LOT.

Phil P