Reference for 33,000+ Protestant denominations

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jan2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
PhilVaz said:
Teflon << What is the correct number of Protestant denominations? Let’s see your evidence. >>

OK I’ll give this a shot. Let’s throw out the 33,000 number and start over. 👍

PART I: The mega-bloc “PROTESTANTS” (about 9000 “denominations” in 242 total countries)

Here are the major Protestant groupings according to World Christian Encyclopedia –

– Adventist
– Baptist
– Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Open only)
– Congregational, Congregationalist
– Disciple, Restorationist, Restorationist Baptist, Christian
– Dunker (Tunker), Dipper, German Baptist, Brethren
– Exclusive Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Closed, Strict)
– Anglican Evangelical, Independent Evangelical
– Fundamentalist
– Holiness (Conservative Methodist, Wesleyan, Free Methodist)
– Lutheran / Reformed united church or joint mission
– Lutheran
– Mennonite, Anabaptist (Left Wing or Radical Reformation)
– Methodist (mainline Methodist, United Methodist)
– Moravian (Continental Pietist)
– Nondenominational (no church or anti-church groups)
– Oneness-Pentecostal or Unitarian-Pentecostal: Jesus Only
– Baptistic-Pentecostal or Keswick-Pentecostal
– Holiness-Pentecostal: 3-crisis-experience
– Apostolic, or Pentecostal Apostolic (living apostles)
– Pentecostal (Protestant; Classical Pentecostal)
– Friends (Quaker)
– Reformed, Presbyterian
– Salvationist (Salvation Army)
– United church (union of bodies of different traditions)
– Waldensian
– community church or union congregation

That gives us 27 major “groups” (not individual denominations, but major groups) to start with. If we throw out the “Oneness” groups as pseudo-Christian, that’s 26. Now the WCE also suggests that inside these are further “denominations” and the 8 largest of these are:

Bottom line: final answer to “number of Protestant denominations” is…

HELLUVA LOT. :eek:

Phil P
Click to expand...
Your comparing apples to elephants! The protestant churches by definition see no universal Bishop in the ancient Church, or in the biblical texts. We only see unity found in the common confession of faith, the ancient creeds and acknowlegement of the Lord Jesus Christ as the rightfull head of the Church.

The vast majority of protestants would agree with the ancient creeds of the Church. It seems back then, those who agreed with the creeds were considered in unity or (Catholic). Do you see hundreds of “denominations” in the early church who did not hold to submission to Rome? Why not?

Counting independent churches with identical doctrine as different denominations is at best misleading. You might at least try to substantiate the assertions by stating major doctrinal differences among the major protestant groups, but I suspect that since this will severely discredit your position it will never be done. Anti-protestant’s dishonest use of the 33K figure only poisons the well and reduces your credibilty on all other matters.
 
kaycee said:
Your comparing apples to elephants! The protestant churches by definition see no universal Bishop in the ancient Church, or in the biblical texts. We only see unity found in the common confession of faith, the ancient creeds and acknowlegement of the Lord Jesus Christ as the rightfull head of the Church.

The vast majority of protestants would agree with the ancient creeds of the Church. It seems back then, those who agreed with the creeds were considered in unity or (Catholic). Do you see hundreds of “denominations” in the early church who did not hold to submission to Rome? Why not?

Counting independent churches with identical doctrine as different denominations is at best misleading. Anti-protestant’s dishonest use of the 33K figure only poisons the well and reduces your credibilty on all other matters.
Click to expand...
Such hysteria!

You simply can’t have it both ways, Kaycee. If 33,000 is “dishonest”, kindly provide the “honest” figure. If not, you have no basis for your uncharitable assertion that it is dishonest. Phil and others have provided the basis for it; it’s scholarly work whether you like it or not.

The basis for your position is thus far nothing more than your opinion. Elevating your opinion to theological certainty is how Protestants got in the constant-schism mess they are in.

You simply don’t like the argument because:

a) It is true.

and

b) It is irreconcilable with the unity Christ called for.

That you cannot concede the obvious wounds your credibility, not ours.

The real issue is that most Protestants simply don’t give a fig about Christian unity—with predictable results.
 
kaycee said:
Your comparing apples to elephants! The protestant churches by definition see no universal Bishop in the ancient Church, or in the biblical texts. We only see unity found in the common confession of faith, the ancient creeds and acknowlegement of the Lord Jesus Christ as the rightfull head of the Church.

The vast majority of protestants would agree with the ancient creeds of the Church. It seems back then, those who agreed with the creeds were considered in unity or (Catholic). Do you see hundreds of “denominations” in the early church who did not hold to submission to Rome?
Click to expand...
None that, at the same time, also held to the precepts found in the Apostles’ Creed and/or the Nicene Creed. All of those who were out of communion with Rome (Arians, Gnostics, Manicheans, Nestorians, etc.) were also out of synch with the Creeds. In modern times, we would classify these belief systems as “cults” - in those days, they were less polite; they called them “heresies.”
Why not?
Click to expand...
Uh - because they didn’t exist? 🤷
Counting independent churches with identical doctrine as different denominations is at best misleading.
Click to expand...
That’s precisely what he is avoiding to do, with the yellow highlighter. 😉
 
Teflon93 said:
Such hysteria!

You simply can’t have it both ways, Kaycee. If 33,000 is “dishonest”, kindly provide the “honest” figure. If not, you have no basis for your uncharitable assertion that it is dishonest. Phil and others have provided the basis for it; it’s scholarly work whether you like it or not.
Click to expand...
Sorry silly wabbit, Its not up to me to disprove the assertions. Usually the one making the assertion has to first present proof. Unless you are willing to state that these numbers are NOT based on doctrinal differences.

Certainly the citation of 27 protestant groupings by Phil V. is not 33,000 denominations. I would at least like the assertion proven in doctrinal terms, considering the 33,000 figure is used as a battering ram to show the supposed doctrinal chaos of protestants.
 
kaycee said:
Sorry silly wabbit, Its not up to me to disprove the assertions. Usually the one making the assertion has to first present proof. Unless you are willing to state that these numbers are NOT based on doctrinal differences.
Click to expand...
They are also based on organizational differences. (Organizational structure answers the question, to whom do you go, to settle your doctrinal disputes? If two different individuals are going to two different authorities to settle their disputes, then even if their two different authorities are giving the same answers, they are still two different authorities; not the same one, and therefore, not the same denomination.)
Certainly the citation of 27 protestant groupings by Phil V. is not 33,000 denominations. I would at least like the assertion proven in doctrinal terms, considering the 33,000 figure is used as a battering ram to show the supposed doctrinal chaos of protestants.
Click to expand...
The chaos in Protestantism is both doctrinal and organizational.
 
jmcrae said:
They are also based on organizational differences. (Organizational structure answers the question, to whom do you go, to settle your doctrinal disputes? If two different individuals are going to two different authorities to settle their disputes, then even if their two different authorities are giving the same answers, they are still two different authorities; not the same one, and therefore, not the same denomination.)
Click to expand...
Well, if that definition was applied to the early church they would have had many “denominations” as well. 😦

It is somewhat amusing to see the assertion that 2 churches with identical doctrine in 2 different cities = chaos. :confused:
 
kaycee said:
Sorry silly wabbit, Its not up to me to disprove the assertions. Usually the one making the assertion has to first present proof. Unless you are willing to state that these numbers are NOT based on doctrinal differences.

Certainly the citation of 27 protestant groupings by Phil V. is not 33,000 denominations. I would at least like the assertion proven in doctrinal terms, considering the 33,000 figure is used as a battering ram to show the supposed doctrinal chaos of protestants.
Click to expand...
And yet you have made an assertion here—that there is not doctrinal chaos among Protestants. What proof do you offer?

Indeed, the Creeds you have mentioned were your inheritance from the Catholic Church, and you agree not even on these!

I had a recent thread asking which man alive today Protestants would look to as having the final say in a matter of faith and morals. The answer was, “None”—indeed, no one could even point to a favored candidate!

There is no body of belief, as we saw in another thread I started some time ago, which Protestants hold in common beyond the Nicene Creed, and even then perhaps a bare majority, and that of course was provided to them by the Church 1,200 years before Martin Luther decided to go create another Christianity.

Given the separatism so beloved of Fundamentalists, Kaycee, I’m surprised you’d even make such a claim.

Study the Orthodox, who have been around twice as long at least as Protestantism and yet have produced no comparable disarray.

Like it or lump it, there is something inherently schismatic about Protestantism. Indeed, it gave even Luther considerable pause as he considered what he’d unleashed.
 
kaycee said:
Well, if that definition was applied to the early church we would see many “denominations” as well. 😦
Click to expand...
Not at all—consider the Epistles, which were directed using apostolic authority toward wayward churches.

Where may we find today’s Protestant epistles, so revered that they would become Sacred Scripture?

We do not—no Protestant has the authority to issue such.

Which is why every papal encyclical is an event even in a Protestant country such as this.
 
And lest anyone misunderstand, I continue to pay respect to Kaycee, who is frankly one of the few who will address such arguments directly, versus simply derailing them.

I may argue with you, Kaycee, but I respect your willingness to engage even on such unfavorable ground.

If you have an opinion as to why lack of authority is in fact a good thing for Christian churches, I think that would make a very interesting thread, and certainly a welcome relief from this thread, which usually flows as:

Catholic: There are 33,000+ Protestant denominations! Why so many?

Protestant: No, there aren’t.

Catholic: What number are there?

Protestant: …
 
Teflon93 said:
Not at all—consider the Epistles, which were directed using apostolic authority toward wayward churches.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good argument for Sola Scriptura. Certainly Apostolic authority.👍
Where may we find today’s Protestant epistles, so revered that they would become Sacred Scripture?
Click to expand...
We do not—no Protestant has the authority to issue such.
Click to expand...
Offcourse, we do not see anyone, anywhere with authority on par with scripture.

Your not asserting encyclicals being on par with scripture? :eek:
 
kaycee said:
Sounds like a good argument for Sola Scriptura. Certainly Apostolic authority.👍
Click to expand...
Actually, it’s a good argument for Church authority, since that is what determined what the canon was, and included these precious Epistles. But nice try!
Offcourse, we do not see anyone, anywhere with authority on par with scripture.
Click to expand...
Your not asserting encyclicals being on par with scripture? :eek:
Click to expand...
Sure I am. I am a Catholic. Without the encyclicals, where would we get the doctrine of the Trinity, implicit only in Scripture, and yet the rule of faith for the vast majority of Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike?

If you recall, Martin Luther got in quite a lot of trouble for rejecting Tradition on the issue of polygamy, given that Scripture certainly does not condemn the practice.

There are any number of matters of faith and morals which are implicit in Scripture, but which require more definitive statements which are in alignment with Scripture. The Church has all three legs of that salvation stool—Scripture, Magisterium, Tradition. All are required to persevere on that narrow path, lest we run afoul of those charming heretics St Paul, St Peter, St Jude, and St John take great pains to warn us of in the Epistles.

For how does one reject modern heresies such as the “prosperity gospel” otherwise, Kaycee? By what authority?
 
Teflon93 said:
And lest anyone misunderstand, I continue to pay respect to Kaycee, who is frankly one of the few who will address such arguments directly, versus simply derailing them.

I may argue with you, Kaycee, but I respect your willingness to engage even on such unfavorable ground.
Click to expand...
aw shucks thanks :blushing:

I too appreciate banter on the topic without uncharitable rhetoric. I dont always succeed but praise God my failures can be forgiven by the Father of lights!

I am trying to leave emotions out in so charged a discusion. I pray God will hold me accountable for my words and not detract from His Glory.

got to run
 
kaycee said:
aw shucks thanks :blushing:

I too appreciate banter on the topic without uncharitable rhetoric. I dont always succeed but praise God my failures can be forgiven by the Father of lights!

I am trying to leave emotions out in so charged a discusion. I pray God will hold me accountable for my words and not detract from His Glory.

got to run
Click to expand...
When you get back, would you care to help us craft valid criteria for Christian denominations?

I think the numbers discussion is all the more difficult absent commonly-accepted definitions and terminology.

Clearly, the source for the 33,000 number presumed that each representative body within a nation’s borders was somehow a separate denomination from a very similar body or bodies outside of those borders, which is why Phil’s suggested the need to divide each by the number of countries the denomination is truly present within.

What is a denomination, and how do we tell one from the other?
 
emeraldisle said:
Must be getting desperate when you have to use wikipedia as your source.

Just learn the lesson that you should check your sources before you post them as evidence for your ideas.

.
Click to expand...
Check the sources in wikipedia.
 
kaycee said:
Sounds like a good argument for Sola Scriptura. Certainly Apostolic authority.👍

Offcourse, we do not see anyone, anywhere with authority on par with scripture.

Your not asserting encyclicals being on par with scripture? :eek:
Click to expand...
That’s what New Testament Scripture was, originally - a series of Apostolic encyclicals coming out of the Vatican for the instruction of the Christian faithful. 🙂
 
Teflon << When you get back, would you care to help us craft valid criteria for Christian denominations? I think the numbers discussion is all the more difficult absent commonly-accepted definitions and terminology. >>

OK I’m back from my library trip and yellow highliting project. 👍 👍

THE Correct Number of Protestant Denominations as of 06-28-2008 is…

about 26 if all “Lutherans” are one denomination, and all “Baptists” are one denom, and all “Reformed” are one denom.

about 3300 if we ignore “duplicates” in other countries, and we define “denomination” by organizational and doctrinal unity.

about 40000 if we count all “duplicates” in all countries.

“Received 9/28/2007 11:17 a.m. MST”

“Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data…More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. These lists are not exhaustive, as there are too many small denominations to list separately, but they should help give a clearer picture. Furthermore, the Southern Baptist Convention has over 40,000 congregations in the US alone; not to mention the Baptist General Conference, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, etc. So we are definitely not counting each congregation as its own denomination. We are also not lumping all Baptists into a single denomination, but counting each organization separately. I hope this information helps.”

“Justin J. Evans, Research Assistant, Center for the Study of Global Christianity”

As for various definitions of denomination, the “within a specific country” definition:

“A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions.” (from World Christian Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 16, which gives us the “composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 [or 242] countries” number that nobody likes)

The Webster dictionary calls a ‘denomination’ “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.”

Comment by Dave1988: The category called “Protestantism,” since it does not actually “unite” any local congregation into a “single legal and administrative body,” is more accurately a grouping of denominations rather than a denomination, according to Webster’s definition…How many of the “denominations” listed by Barrett fall into this category? I’m betting over 33,000…Some would say, “well that number is completely inflated” based upon Barrett’s fuzzy definition of “denomination.” On the contrary, I would say that it is a MUCH LARGER NUMBER of denominations using Webster’s definition of “denomination.”

More from Dave1988: Can the Baptist denomination rightly be called a “religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body?” I don’t believe so. I suspect the label ‘Baptist’ is yet another grouping of denominations like the word “Protestant,” since according to one Baptist scholar, every

“local Baptist parish church is a law unto itself. Its relations with other Baptists churches, its compliance with recommendations from national church headquarters, its acceptance of any resolutions formulated at regional , national, or international conventions – all these are entirely voluntary on the part of the parish church.” (Religions of America, Leo Rosten, ed.)

If it is true that every Baptist parish-church is a law unto itself, then isn’t every individual Baptist parish-church, according to Webster, its own legal and administrative body, its own denomination? I wonder how many Baptist parish-churches [or various other “independent” Protestant churches] are in the world? …Therefore, I believe 33,000 is a tragically conservative number of Protestant denominations IN THIS COUNTRY (U.S.) let alone in the world.

PhilVaz says: So you can define “denomination” both organizationally and doctrinally. If you ignore the “organizational” unity, doctrinally most baptists would be very similar to one another. If you include organization in your definition, you have many more.

Phil P
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top