Reference for 33,000+ Protestant denominations

[MarcoPolo]

Oh please. rolls eye

Manny, you have provided the source and have not done so recklessly. Phil has expounded very well also. Let not a person who calls a valid source the equivalent of digging a hole bother you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, you have provided the source and have not done so recklessly. Phil has expounded very well also. Let not a person who calls a valid source the equivalent of digging a hole bother you.

Just read the book which I cited and why some Catholic apologist insist on the basis where 33,000 Protestant denomination came from and many of them have read the Christian Encyc. Most of these numbers or calculations are assumptions or guesses for the most part. There is a lack of unity in Protestantism compared to Catholic Christianity.

 

[BradW]

PhilVaz, excellent job explaining the history behind the 33,000 figure on your web page.

When I was evaluating all this Catholic stuff and listening to Catholic apologists toss the numbers around… it varied around 28,000 ; 30,000 ; 33,000 … I tried to get to the bottom as well. My digging led me to the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia, which I was able to find at my daughter’s Reformed college library. On one of my visits, I spent a hurried hour digging as much as I could out of it to see if the claim held up.

I discovered much the same that you documented. The number stated was probably somewhat on the large side, but definitely the right order of magnitude. One interesting thing I just learned is that the numbers I had heard thrown around were based on taking a smaller number from the 1st ed. WCE and applying an annual growth rate. Interesting that by the 2nd ed, the 33,000 number is pretty solid in the book, showing that the growth rate applied was on target!

And I also saw in that edition that there were some 228 geographies listed, and 227 Roman Catholic “denominations” (numbers may be not exact; I know I photocopied some pages but cannot locate them now). I forget if that ed. had the author’s explicit note that although his methodology ended up listing 227 the Roman Catholic Church was a single organization. But the thing I took away from that was that yes, this IS a “universal” church, if it’s one of the few that exists in practically EVERY place on Earth. (That last geography might even have been Antarctica.)

Now, for some comments on your recent post:

THE Correct Number of Protestant Denominations as of 06-28-2008 is…

about 26 if all “Lutherans” are one denomination, and all “Baptists” are one denom, and all “Reformed” are one denom.

I don’t think you can lump those together at all. Between the various Lutheran synods, there are diametrically opposing beliefs about the morality of abortion and homosexuality. The Baptists themselves would bridle at the idea that they share one theology. Plus, what do you then do with “Reformed Baptists” – which denomination do they go in then? Just splitting out the different varieties of Baptists as listed on my college religious preference survey will add about 120 demonimations to the count.

about 3300 if we ignore “duplicates” in other countries, and we define “denomination” by organizational and doctrinal unity.

I don’t thing you can totally ignore the division by country. The description of organizational splits given earlier was, I thought, an excellent description. Even if two groups believe the same thing (today at least), the fact that neither is willing to actually accept accountability to the other shows there is still something short of full unity there. Businesses have no qualms at all about going multi-national in terms of vision and accountability, why shouldn’t denominations.

PhilVaz says: So you can define “denomination” both organizationally and doctrinally. If you ignore the “organizational” unity, doctrinally most baptists would be very similar to one another.

I disagree with that. You can find a pretty wide range of doctrine and practice among different groups of Baptists.

 

[PhilVaz]

Brad << I disagree with that. You can find a pretty wide range of doctrine and practice among different groups of Baptists. >>

That’s fine, most Baptists would consider their differences “non-essential.” Of course defining what is truly “essential” can be difficult. Interesting that the earlier edition (1982) was “on target” about the “total numbers” in the new (2001) edition. The online edition also projects 25 years into the future:

YEAR ------1800—1900----1970----mid-2000—mid-2007----2025 proj
DENOMS-----500----1900—18,800----33,800-----39,000-----55,000

Also, if someone wants to find out the true “unique” number of denominations (those not duplicated in other countries) they could use the up-to-date data I’ve saved here (zip contains .xls and .csv files). This lists the specific names of 9,000 (since this is less than one-third of the 33000 I assume others were too small or had to be “estimated”). Then you would write a Visual Basic or other computer program that goes through the list, compiles and counts the names of the “unique” denominations. For example of the “Independents” mega-bloc the first 20 (sorted by denom name) are:

(A) Independents – USA – Abbott Loop Fell of Community Chs
(B) Independents – Australia – Aboriginal pentecostal congregations
(C) Independents – New Zealand – Absolute Maori Established Church
(D) Independents – Portugal – Acção Bíblica
(E) Independents – Dominican Republic – Acción Misionera Iglesia de Dios
(F) Independents – China – Achang Church
(G) Independents – Malawi – Achewa Baptist Church
(H) Independents – Central African Rep – Action Apostolique
(I) Independents – South Africa – Acts Mission Church of South Africa
(J) Independents – Nigeria – Acts of Apostles Christ Ch Nigeria
(K) Independents – Russia – Adventists of the True Remnant
(L) Independents – South Africa – Africa Christian network
(M) Independents – Kenya – Africa Gospel Unity Church
(N) Independents – Zimbabwe – African Apost Ch of Johane Maranke
(O) Independents – Botswana – African Apost Ch of Johane Maranke
(P) Independents – Zimbabwe – African Apost Ch St Simon & St Johane
(Q) Independents – Malawi – African Apostolic Ch of Johane Maranke
(R) Independents – Tanzania – African Apostolic Ch of Johane Masowe
(S) Independents – Nigeria – African Apostolic Ch of Nigeria & Benin
(T) Independents – South Africa – African Assemblies of God

Of these 20, the ones “duplicated” are (N) and (O) and (Q) African Apost Ch of Johane Maranke ], so your “unique” number would be 17. Although having a program figure out correct “abbreviations” (Apost vs. Apostolic) can be a pain. Basically you would have to count only “unique” names of denominations, and discard duplicates in multiple countries. There appear to be a lot of these. The easiest way to do this is sort the list by mega-bloc and then by denomination name (the .csv and .xls included already are sorted that way).

Once you get your total “unique Independents” you multiple this by 97% and that gives you total unique “Protestants” among the Indies (since 97% of the Indies are Protestant denoms). Do the same with the Protestant mega-bloc taking 100% of those, or you can “exclude” the denoms with the word “Oneness” in them if you don’t consider those “Protestant.”

You can do the same with Anglicans although there are only “168 denoms” among the Anglicans according to the WCE. So you can feel free to ignore those.

Your total of “unique” Prot denoms + (97% of “unique” Indie denoms) would be the true “unique” number of total Prot denoms among that 9,000. Then you can multiply that number by 3.67 since 33000 / 9000 = 3.67

I might do this “for fun” and see what number it comes up with.

Phil P

 

[CentralFLJames]

Phil, if you have these in a file that is comma or tab seperated format just import it into an excel spreadsheet or do a text to table conversion in MS-Word and copy and paste it into a spread sheet. Then do either a multi-column sort by geographical region and denomination name or a full sort by denomination and enable the “remove duplicate” option. Even if you don’t remove the dupes they will standout visually and all cluster together for easy hand edit/deletion.

The entire Protestant error can be modeled accurately enough with a simple straight line linear regression model (y=mx + b) to probably within 5-10% error. That is close enough to show the general trend with a slope somewhere on the general order of about 200-250 new denoms per year. Mathematically, it can thus be proved that Protestantism is like a weed spreading itself like a disease all over the planet. We can only hope that the Holy Spirit will use this contagion-of-man as a mechanism for getting people baptised and at least mentally, emotionally, and spiritual predisposed to conversion from heresy to the full truth of Catholicism. Ironically, those that convert to the fractional truth of Protestantism but then willfully reject Catholicism when given the opportunity might find themselves spiritually worse off at their judgement than a moralistic heathen who was never exposed to Christianity and did not know better.

James

 

[kaycee]

When you get back, would you care to help us craft valid criteria for Christian denominations?

I think the numbers discussion is all the more difficult absent commonly-accepted definitions and terminology.

Clearly, the source for the 33,000 number presumed that each representative body within a nation’s borders was somehow a separate denomination from a very similar body or bodies outside of those borders, which is why Phil’s suggested the need to divide each by the number of countries the denomination is truly present within.

What is a denomination, and how do we tell one from the other?

It would seem reasonable to me that since the inflated numbers (33,000) are being used to infer doctrinal confusion, why not at least use the numbers that ARE roughly based on doctrinal sub groups defined by the same article to be around 25-27 ish. Using the 33,000, without mentioning that many factors other besides doctrine were included to reach that number is rather unfair.

 

[Teflon93]

It would seem reasonable to me that since the inflated numbers (33,000) are being used to infer doctrinal confusion, why not at least use the numbers that ARE roughly based on doctrinal sub groups defined by the same article to be around 25-27 ish. Using the 33,000, without mentioning that many factors other besides doctrine were included to reach that number is rather unfair.

But that only begs the question as to what the criteria are for belonging to one of these subgroups.

The criteria the reference used is listed above.

To your mind, what are the valid, objective criteria for distinguishing one denomination from another?

 

[Returnee]

That’s fine, most Baptists would consider their differences “non-essential.” Of course defining what is truly “essential” can be difficult.

Emphasis added.

I selected this portion of your last post to make the point that, I believe, is the most critical here.

In my experience, and I’m sure yours too, debating this issue time and time again, the same “spiel” is as follows:

1. Catholic states, “There are over 33,000 Protestant denominations!”
2. Protestant responds, “Prove it”.
3. Catholic invariably uses the WCE source, or some source that cites that source.
4. Protestant retorts, “That’s not a good source, because of the way they define ‘denomination’ is completely without merit. In the definition of ‘denomination’ it lumps the number of countries into it, thus completely distorting the actual number.”
5. Catholic responds much as you have Phil, realizing the inherent flaw of the ECW count, but offering different ways of defining “denomination”…

…which invariably leads to the problem in bold above. Let me repeat (whether they actively do this as a diversionary tactic or not, the result is the same): Protestants will eventually claim that “your definition of ‘denomination’ here is too narrow; there’s not THAT much difference between those Baptists or those Methodists, or those Lutherans.” They’ll say, “You’re just making it too narrow so that you can beef the numbers up”… ad infinitum

Thus, IOW, the problem then shifts to a focus on a “numbers debate” and the “definition of a denomination”. It shifts to that, AWAY from the REAL point, which is, that the unity of the church is just that, UNITY, and, this is the most important point of all (as I said upthread):

Even if there are only TWO “denominations” (a figure NO one can deny), this is STILL NOT UNITY, because UNITY, is defined as ONE.

This is really the point that should be debated. This is really the point where the Protestant looses, which is why, either consciously or subconsciously, he always leads us into a debate about the definition of “denomination” and/or a debate about the methodology used to “count” the denominations.

This debate about the “proper definition of a denomination” is a red herring, and should be avoided. The best way to avoid it is to simply not attempt to make the “33,000+ denomination” claim, because it invariably sidetracks the central issue outlined and emphasized above.

Another way to avoid it is to shift the focus back on the inherent weakness in the Protestant position, by asking, “Was Jesus a Lutheran, or a Calvinist?” (two Protestant denominations no one can deny are clearly different both organizationally, and doctrinally)

 

[Teflon93]

Well, not so fast.

I’ve made the point above that it doesn’t matter whether Protestants count 27 or 33,000 denominations among them—fact is, that’s far more denominations in a far shorter time than Catholic and Orthodox have produced. There’s a problem there.

That said, it is important to have a common definition of a denomination. Why?

Well, just think about the criteria one must apply to have a valid denomination. This gets to the heart of WHY there are so many more Protestant denominations than Catholic and Orthodox, no matter how you count.

It is also necessary to avoid the red herring Kaycee threw out earlier—that it’s apples and elephants because Protestants don’t define things as Catholics do. This sidesteps the notion of objective definitions of denominations entirely, but at the expense of not being able to explain why someone is a Baptist versus a Methodist. Clearly, the distinction matters to Baptists and Methodists enough that they follow the one and eschew the other.

Besides, once a common definition of denomination criteria is provided, we can use it to evaluate Catholic and Orthodox unity as well as Protestant. Again, this won’t work out to Protestantism’s favor, whether a number so derived is a few dozen or tens of thousands.

More fruitful ground may lie in Protestants’ putting forth their case why such doctrinal anarchy is in fact a good thing. I have not seen an attempt to do this, however.

 

[MarcoPolo]

More fruitful ground may lie in Protestants’ putting forth their case why such doctrinal anarchy is in fact a good thing. I have not seen an attempt to do this, however.

I’d like to see someone take a shot at that.

 

[Teflon93]

I’d like to see someone take a shot at that.

I would imagine they’d have to do so on the grounds of religious pluralism, but of course that would make it still harder to be both widely ecumenical among Protestants while hanging onto anti-Catholic biases bequeathed by the various Protestant fathers.

Moreover, it would require raising the historical issue of the rise of absolutism which itself was nourished and supported by Protestantism. Once Luther elected to embrace the German princes, the die was cast for the doctrine whereby the prince would determine the religion of the people. This was the vast increase in the power of the state at the expense of the Church which created the modern world. Anyone seeking to establish the inherent goodness of the fracturing of the Church in the West needs simultaneously to account for the terrible cost of absolutism in its various incarnations. This was the Pandora’s Box Luther opened.

 

[jmcrae]

It is also necessary to avoid the red herring Kaycee threw out earlier—that it’s apples and elephants because Protestants don’t define things as Catholics do. This sidesteps the notion of objective definitions of denominations entirely, but at the expense of not being able to explain why someone is a Baptist versus a Methodist. Clearly, the distinction matters to Baptists and Methodists enough that they follow the one and eschew the other.

To the point that, although they are only divided by “non-essentials,” you can get one of them on one side of the street, and the other on the other side of the street, each with half-filled buildings, and it will not occur to them to merge the two congregations so as to save on infrastructure expenses and fill up one building.

 

[packermann]

Nice try but you too have failed to produce the evidence that shows that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations.

BTW you will never be able to produce such evidence because none exists.

.

I think you are missing the point.
Even if the figure is wrong (although I believe it is right), what number do YOU think it is? Do you think it is 25,000? 10,000? 1000?

Whatever number you come up with, it is direct contradiction of Christ’s final prayer to the Father that we may all be ONE. So even if there were only 2 denominations, that would be one too many.

 

[CentralFLJames]

To the point that, although they are only divided by “non-essentials,” you can get one of them on one side of the street, and the other on the other side of the street, each with half-filled buildings, and it will not occur to them to merge the two congregations so as to save on infrastructure expenses and fill up one building.

The protestant assertion that they are united on “essentials” and only seperated by “non-essentials” is Protestant-Speak. It is a euphemism for “united in rejection of Papal authority, real presence and all things Catholic”.

From my perspective the “non-essentials” are a tacit admission that protestants are fallible in their bible interpretation. Since they see Catholics as a common enemy they maintain an uneasy tolerance of each other and permit some sharing of the social-economic pie with ‘competing brothers in Christ’. “Non-essentials” becomes “essentials” only when some firebrand preacher gets out of camp to sound too Catholic or starts extracting too great a vig from their recruitment goals; or speaks out too loudly against government and places the whole “salvation for hire” business enterprise at risk of having everyone’s tax-free, not for profit business privileges revoked. Clearly, I don’t buy a word of an what Protestants are trying to sell…

James

 

[5pintLutheran]

I think this is the best way to approach/represent the situation. IOW, the take home message here is for all Catholics everywhere to quit saying “There are 10,000, 20,000, 30,000+ Protestant denominations”, because it’s simply not supportable.

What IS supportable is that, (now that we know where the number of “30,000” comes from, and how it was [erroneously, for our apologetic purposes] determined), once we “divide out by country” as Phil Vaz said and you, Teflon, have done, we come up with a bare minimum number of 136 Protestant denominations.

Rounded to 130, or maybe even all the way down to 100 (it could even go as low as TWO individual denominations, if one wishes to be so cantankerous, or obtuse, as to not even accept the 100 number, and no one anywhere can deny that there are at LEAST, TWO Protestant denominations), this STILL drives home the point that the so-called “invisible church” has no unity at all, because ultimately, “unity” is defined as ONE.

Right you are. Even if you dismiss all the “sub-sects” within the major branches of Protestantism, you still have too many divisions within the church.

These stats come out of the “Handbook of Denominations in the United States” 12 ed., by Frank S. Mead, Samuel S. Hill, and Craig D. Atwood…

Major Branches of Christianity:

1. Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox
2. Catholic
3. Episcopal and Anglican
4. Lutheran
5. Reformed, Congregationalist, and Presbyterian
6. Mennonite and Anabaptist
7. Friends
8. Bretheren and Pietist churches
9. Baptist
10. Methodist
11. Holiness churches
12. Christian and Restorationist (Stone-Campbellite Tradition)
13. Adventist and Sabbatarian (Hebraic)
14. Pentecostal
15. Native American Church
16. Fundamentalist and Bible churches
17. Community and New Paradigm churches

I’ve been curteous by listing the major branches of Christianity, and not all the sub sects that go along with each. Given there are different rites (denom) in the RC church, they are all in communion with one another, as well as EO.

Even in the Lutheran denomination, an LCMS Lutheran isn’t in communion with ELCA or WELS, so there is definately some disunity within protestantism. The Baptists condemn the Presbyterians, the Presbyterians condemn the Lutherans, and so on and so on.

 

[emeraldisle]

I think you are missing the point.
Even if the figure is wrong (although I believe it is right), what number do YOU think it is? Do you think it is 25,000? 10,000? 1000?

With all due respect you are missing the point of this thread, remember the OP’s question;

Does anyone know where I can access the reference that contains a listing of the 33,000+ Protestant denominations?

A poster gave reference links to try and prove that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations. So I posted to state the fact that these reference links didn’t provide any evidence for the idea that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations. But now this thread has been well and truly hijacked and the OP’s request for a reference that contains a listing of the 33,000+ Protestant denominations is still outstanding. Who is going to successfully answer the OP’s request???

Whatever number you come up with, it is direct contradiction of Christ’s final prayer to the Father that we may all be ONE. So even if there were only 2 denominations, that would be one too many.

I agreed that there are too many divisions in the Church but there definitely isn’t 33,000+ divisions and that is(was) the issue of the thread

.

 

[jmcrae]

Who is going to successfully answer the OP’s request???

PhilVaz has already done so - quite thoroughly.

 

[mlchance]

So I posted to state the fact that these reference links didn’t provide any evidence for the idea that there is 33,000+ Protestant denominations.

To repeat: If you know there aren’t 33K-plus Protestant denominations, then how many of them are there? You obviously must know, otherwise how else can you rule out any particular range of numbers?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[emeraldisle]

To repeat: If you know there aren’t 33K-plus Protestant denominations, then how many of them are there? You obviously must know, otherwise how else can you rule out any particular range of numbers?

– Mark L. Chance.

To repeat, the OP started this thread not me and the OP asked the following question;

Does anyone know where I can access the reference that contains a listing of the 33,000+ Protestant denominations?

Where is the list?

It’s so simple, produce a list with 33,000+ Protestant denominations and then the question is answered.

.

 

[mlchance]

To repeat…

So, IOW, you don’t actually know how many Protestant denominations there are. Thus, as far as you know, there could be 3, 30, 30000, or even more than that. Your persistent harping about a lack of an itemized list while at the same time consistently ignoring the parts of this thread that attempt to deal with the scope of the unbiblical fracturing of the Church caused by Protestantism are tiresome at best.

– Mark L. Chance.