Refuting Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah

[saylo]

St. Joseph was CHOSEN to be the foster father of Jesus. Jesus was refered to as the “…son of the carpenter ( Joseph)…”

If Joseph was Jesus’ biological father then God could NOT be Jesus’ father.

God makes His own rules and the decendancy of Jesus is intact. Those that follow the rigorous human lineage do NOT understand God’s ways.

Jesus was raised from the dead…He said He would take up His life again in the Gospel. It was written in the prophecies.

Jesus is God incarnate and since Joseph was His “foster father” we all then qualify as God’s adopted children.

No one in the 21st Century can trace his lineage from King David. All birth records have been destroyed when the Romans razed Jerusalem.

This is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[Icemoon]

St. Joseph was CHOSEN to be the foster father of Jesus. Jesus was refered to as the “…son of the carpenter ( Joseph)…”

If Joseph was Jesus’ biological father then God could NOT be Jesus’ father.

God makes His own rules and the decendancy of Jesus is intact. Those that follow the rigorous human lineage do NOT understand God’s ways.

Jesus was raised from the dead…He said He would take up His life again in the Gospel. It was written in the prophecies.

Jesus is God incarnate and since Joseph was His “foster father” we all then qualify as God’s adopted children.

No one in the 21st Century can trace his lineage from King David. All birth records have been destroyed when the Romans razed Jerusalem.

This is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

Sorry, I’m a little dense this morning after a sleep-deprived night.

Exactly what are you driving at, i.e. which point are you addressing?

For example, why did you say if Joseph was Jesus’ biological father then God could NOT be Jesus’ father? I thought God is Jesus’ father via the Trinity?

Thanks for any clarification.

 

[jcrichton]

Have I expressed any view that is typical of anti-Christian Jews?

I’ve asked very factual questions, there is no need to put in too much emotions in them:

1. What is your view on those verses in Jeremiah? Who do you think is spoken in those verses?
2. How is a Torah-educated Jew going to identify THE ONE spoken in Deuteronomy?

It is not whether I accept only the OT or not. The fact is, there was only the OT (in reality, the Torah only, the rest of the books were kinda in dispute, iirc) before the NT.

Perhaps my definition of all who reject Christ as anti-Christian is a strong terminology.

When you proposed to me the idea of using only the Old Testament to identify Christ Jesus and when you further insisted that I address the concern of a Torah-educated Jew I was not able to come to any other conclusion. So I proposed to you that I do not deny the Old Testament; that, rather, I considered it as part of my spiritual past. I hoped that you could surmised that a Torah-educated Jew and any other person that denies the New Testament would prove to be an impossible convert (I mean this in the sense of “accepting” a different teaching which would include the New Testament) for a non-Jewish Christian to undertake.

Put yourself as a contemporary of Elijah. Why can’t Elijah be the spoken one?

We know that it is not Elijah because Elijah did not come to unite the Jews and the Gentiles–this is the greatest premise of the Messiah, the Immanuel:

Romans 15:12 (Is 11:10)
Romans 9:25-33 (Ho 2:25; 2:1; Is 10:22-23; 1:9; 28:16; 8:14)
Romans 10:15-21 (Is 52:7; 1:5+; 52:13 thru 13:12)
Romans 11:1-36 (1 Kings 19:10, 14, 18; Is 4:3; Dt 29:3; Is 29:9-21; Ps 69:22-23; Is 59:20-21; Nm 23:19+; 1 S 15:29; Ps 139:6, 17; Job 15:8; Is 40:13-28)

12 That you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the conversation of Israel and strangers to the testament, having no hope of the promise and without God in this world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: 15 Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees: that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace 16 And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself. 17 And coming, he preached peace to you that were afar off: and peace to them that were nigh. 18 For by him we have access both in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God, 20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: 21 In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. 22 In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:12-22–DRV)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It’s not that, I was just wondering if you could elaborate on it more.

I am at miss… I’ve attempted to show you through Scriptures how Jesus Christ is the Messiah… I cannot change the belief of those who continue to reject Scriptures and reason (the conditions for the Messiah has been met in Jesus and the changes in the world, lest we turn back time, determine that no “future” messiah can meet the conditions since the spiritual and temporal economies have changed.

However, if you like to put forth Scriptures for us to study I am more than willing to study the Holy Scritpures with you.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Icemoon]

When you proposed to me the idea of using only the Old Testament to identify Christ Jesus and when you further insisted that I address the concern of a Torah-educated Jew I was not able to come to any other conclusion. So I proposed to you that I do not deny the Old Testament; that, rather, I considered it as part of my spiritual past. I hoped that you could surmised that a Torah-educated Jew and any other person that denies the New Testament would prove to be an impossible convert (I mean this in the sense of “accepting” a different teaching which would include the New Testament) for a non-Jewish Christian to undertake.

Of course the Old Testament has to identify Jesus uniquely. How would you expect the Pharisees during Jesus’ time to identify him?? Most of the NT was not even written.

We know that it is not Elijah because Elijah did not come to unite the Jews and the Gentiles–this is the greatest premise of the Messiah, the Immanuel:

I was referring to the verses in Deuteronomy 18, where Moses told of a future prophet who is like him; this point was emphasized twice. Does the prophet have to be the Messiah or vice versa? Is it suggested in the OT that both are the same person? Moreover, how can Jesus be just “like Moses”? Isn’t Jesus higher than Moses? If so, why didn’t Deuteronomy speak of a prophet higher than Moses?

 

[Pax]

…
…
No one in the 21st Century can trace his lineage from King David. All birth records have been destroyed when the Romans razed Jerusalem.

This is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

As I was reading through this thread, I was waiting for someone to make this very important point. It is interesting that Jesus also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in the same breath that He alludes to the end of the world. The Old Covenant ended and the finality is found in Jesus as the messiah, the prediction of the destruction of the temple by Jesus, and the fulfillment of the prophecy in 70 AD that included the loss of all genealogical records that would be necessary for a messianic claim.

Nicely done saylo.

 

[jcrichton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj2011
My post is based on Scripture. I’m not sure who decides what “the Jewish point of view” is, since Jews, as far as I know, don’t have a pope.

Apologies here. I was referring more to jcrichton’s reply which you quoted and was merely using your reply as a launching pad. Opps.

As to who decides what the Jewish point of view is, I’m afraid you have to ask jcrichton. He seems to be clear on their point of view, at least enough to paint them under a broad brush.

And you don’t need a pope to have a point of view. Protestants do not have a pope, does it mean there is no point of view belonging to Protestant Christianity?

…yeah, I’m confirmed in my belief that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior: the Only Son of the Only True God: The Word: The Immanuel…

…my experience (I do not personally know every single Jewish person in the world) has been that non-Christians Jews reject not just Jesus but the entire New Testament. Granted I speak from that very few, perhaps less than 30 or 40, which I have had exchanges with on-line and in person.

Regarless of the numbers, show me a non-Christian Jew that has read the Old Testament and the New Testament and believes that they are both the Word of God.

Some (including one on this forum) have suggested that Jesus and His Disciples ceased being Jewish because of their theology.

Am I suggesting that Judaism is comprised of one single school of thought or belief system? No.

What I am stating is that both the Holy Scritpures (Old and New Testaments) present the Immanuel, the Annointed, the Prophet, the Messiah, as Jesus Christ: the Word Incarnate.

I am also stating that the temporal conditions and the spiritual conditions for the coming of the Messiah were me in Jesus Christ and that after Him these conditions changed to the point that it would be impossible for them to exist again.

Hence, my blanket statement that they (non-Christian Jews) continue to await a “futuristic messiah” that will not be revealed from Scriptures and the temporal conditions.

Now, if you believe that one day Rome will make a resurgence and reinstitute death by crucifixion, and Israel, after the USA crumbles or terminates the allegiance with Israel, falls under the oppression of the Roman Empire (or some other alternative power as Palestine or another Arab nation/s) and that Christianity is truly not Yahweh God’s Creation… so, the conditions for the “futuristic” messiah will exist… you can belive that; I am not suggesting that others cannot have an opinion nor a belief.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Icemoon]

Regarless of the numbers, show me a non-Christian Jew that has read the Old Testament and the New Testament and believes that they are both the Word of God.

This is an oxymoron isn’t it? Wouldn’t the person be a Jewish Christian or Messianic Jew if both testaments are believed to be the Word of God?

Some (including one on this forum) have suggested that Jesus and His Disciples ceased being Jewish because of their theology.

Am I suggesting that Judaism is comprised of one single school of thought or belief system? No.

Agree with you. I have no problem in accepting the Jewishness of Jesus and His disciples.

I am also stating that the temporal conditions and the spiritual conditions for the coming of the Messiah were me in Jesus Christ and that after Him these conditions changed to the point that it would be impossible for them to exist again.

Hence, my blanket statement that they (non-Christian Jews) continue to await a “futuristic messiah” that will not be revealed from Scriptures and the temporal conditions.

This is kind of like begging the question. Scripture allows different interpretation for the temporal and spiritual conditions, as such a bold scenario like your example need not be ascribed.

But of course, you are entitled to your belief.

 

[jcrichton]

Of course the Old Testament has to identify Jesus uniquely. How would you expect the Pharisees during Jesus’ time to identify him?? Most of the NT was not even written.

The problem is that they did not want to accept it.

They said the words but did not believe.

They tested Him any and every way they could and they were left in awe of His powers and abilities.

The Old Testament says that the Messiah will come and free Israel from sin that the blind will see, that the lame would walk…

When John the Baptist was nearing his death he wanted his disciples to follow Jesus but since they were very attached to him he sent them to ask Jesus if He was the One that was going to come (the Messiah) here’s Jesus’ reply:

“Go back and tell John what you hear and see; the blind see again, and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised to life and the Good News is proclaimed to the poor; and happy is the man who does not lose faith in me.” (Mt 11:4-6)

This is an example of what the Pharisees and Sadducees (and all of Israel) experienced during Jesus’ Messianic Mision.

Today, those Jews which I have had an exchange with suggest that (I will paraphrase): “hey, no problem, other sages or rabbi have done the same…”

It seems that they are right… but only technically… for you see, these were all commanded by Yahweh God to perform such miracles. And the miracles themselves were limited to a very few examples. Conversely, Jesus performed hundreds of such miracles. Not only that but He empowered His Disciples to do the same!

And, as far as I can remember, there’s not a single account of a prophet/sage/rabbi encountering Satan or his minions and commanding them (I do not mean an exorcism).

Everything in Scriptures that points to Jesus was refused by them; even when God’s words came out of their own mouths, they just refused to understand. Yet, this too is in the Holy Scriptures; it was necessary for Israel (not the Remnant) to reject the Rock which Yahweh God Chose as the Corner Stone so that the Gentiles could have the opportunity to come into the Fullness of God. (Read Romans 9 through 11:33)

I was referring to the verses in Deuteronomy 18, where Moses told of a future prophet who is like him; this point was emphasized twice. Does the prophet have to be the Messiah or vice versa? Is it suggested in the OT that both are the same person? Moreover, how can Jesus be just “like Moses”? Isn’t Jesus higher than Moses? If so, why didn’t Deuteronomy speak of a prophet higher than Moses?

You must go beyond human reason.

Moses is speaking prophetically… who was Moses? the giver of the Law; the political leader, the high priest, the prophet, and even a god ("…I will make you a god to pharaoh…"); so he prophesied that out of Israel there would come a prophet as himself: the Messiah, the Immanuel, the Servant, the Prophet, the High Priest, the King, the Fulfillment of the Law!

Now, if you are asking me why Yahweh God is not more direct in how He presents Himself to Israel and to the Gentiles… well… I must confess that my finite mind is not able to comprehend His Will… I simply take Him on His Word: “He is my Son, listen to Him!”

I suggest that you revisit Hebrews 11–it is all about Faith!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrichton
Regarless of the numbers, show me a non-Christian Jew that has read the Old Testament and the New Testament and believes that they are both the Word of God.

This is an oxymoron isn’t it? Wouldn’t the person be a Jewish Christian or Messianic Jew if both testaments are believed to be the Word of God?

Exactly my point! None who is in fellowship with Judaism will respect/accept the New Testament… so to suggest that a Catholic convince such a Jew with the Old Testament Writings is an exercise in futily.

Quote:
I am also stating that the temporal conditions and the spiritual conditions for the coming of the Messiah were me in Jesus Christ and that after Him these conditions changed to the point that it would be impossible for them to exist again.

Hence, my blanket statement that they (non-Christian Jews) continue to await a “futuristic messiah” that will not be revealed from Scriptures and the temporal conditions.

This is kind of like begging the question. Scripture allows different interpretation for the temporal and spiritual conditions, as such a bold scenario like your example need not be ascribed.

But of course, you are entitled to your belief.
Unless you subscribe to a Jewish only Messiah there’s one premise of the Old Testament that must be applied to Him: uniting the Jew and the Gentile to God and in God–already happened.

The Messiah must die, rejected by the people of God, by the hands of foreigners and must be crucified–how would that be fulfilled in the future unless the whole world is in turmoil–a world where crucixion is an accepted form of capital punishment and Israel stands alone under the oppression of a foreign empire?

…and true, Scriptures can be interpreted any which way… that is why it is easy to manipulate a single passage or a few passages… but this can only be done if whole pages/books are ignored.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Icemoon]

You must go beyond human reason.

Moses is speaking prophetically… who was Moses? the giver of the Law; the political leader, the high priest, the prophet, and even a god ("…I will make you a god to pharaoh…"); so he prophesied that out of Israel there would come a prophet as himself: the Messiah, the Immanuel, the Servant, the Prophet, the High Priest, the King, the Fulfillment of the Law!

Wait a minute … was Moses the high priest?!

And in case anybody misunderstands your reply ('cos you did not clarify), the ‘god’ here refers to someone of power, not that Moses will be a god literally to the pharaoh.

However, despite your reasoning, I still cannot see how one thing leads to another. Jesus can be seen as a prophet just like Moses, but that’s it. Even using this criteria, the Jews were not expected to await a prophet that would turn out to be higher than Moses.

How are we going to see the connection using a reasoning that is beyond human reason? Same for the pharisees as well.

 

[Icemoon]

Exactly my point! None who is in fellowship with Judaism will respect/accept the New Testament… so to suggest that a Catholic convince such a Jew with the Old Testament Writings is an exercise in futily.

Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

You said earlier:

The problem is that they did not want to accept it.

They said the words but did not believe.

They tested Him any and every way they could and they were left in awe of His powers and abilities.

The Old Testament says that the Messiah will come and free Israel from sin that the blind will see, that the lame would walk…

 

[Icemoon]

Today, those Jews which I have had an exchange with suggest that (I will paraphrase): “hey, no problem, other sages or rabbi have done the same…”

It seems that they are right… but only technically… for you see, these were all commanded by Yahweh God to perform such miracles. And the miracles themselves were limited to a very few examples. Conversely, Jesus performed hundreds of such miracles. Not only that but He empowered His Disciples to do the same!

And, as far as I can remember, there’s not a single account of a prophet/sage/rabbi encountering Satan or his minions and commanding them (I do not mean an exorcism).

You are entitled to your belief that Jesus did perform hundreds of such miracles. However, to the Jews, the authenticity of the accounts can be questioned. This is ok, as long as both sides agree to disagree.

It is good that you acknowledge the story of their forefathers performing miracles under the command of God, unfortunately you have injected your own worldview into it, framing the Jewish account into your worldview and consequently skewing the Jewish position.

Your example on Satan and his minions was uncalled for. Simply because Jews do not believe in Satan like Christians do. If you understand the Jewish position, then you’d agree their prophet/sage/rabbi have no need to command Satan. Is this a strawman again?

 

[Icemoon]

Unless you subscribe to a Jewish only Messiah there’s one premise of the Old Testament that must be applied to Him: uniting the Jew and the Gentile to God and in God–already happened.

The Messiah must die, rejected by the people of God, by the hands of foreigners and must be crucified–how would that be fulfilled in the future unless the whole world is in turmoil–a world where crucixion is an accepted form of capital punishment and Israel stands alone under the oppression of a foreign empire?

…and true, Scriptures can be interpreted any which way… that is why it is easy to manipulate a single passage or a few passages… but this can only be done if whole pages/books are ignored.

I do not understand what you mean by a Jewish only Messiah. The Jewish position seems to be similar to what you wrote, but they probably phrase it a little bit differently.

Your premise needs a little more scrutiny. What does it mean to unite the Jew and Gentile to God and in God?

The whole idea of a dying, rejected and crucified Messiah can be debated. As such your point about reinstating the ancient capital punishment is moot.

 

[treggs]

Hi, jcrichton!

I meant on here, those I posted are Jewish sites that attempt to ‘prove’ that Jesus isn’t the Messiah. I would prefer a run down (top to bottom) of all the main issues if thats alright.

Thanks for your help!

The Jews have their own meaning for Messiah, to them it is the King of the Jews and as such Jesus could never be the Jewish Messiah, but the truth is he could be because he was born with a father and mother and never claimed otherwise, Jesus spent years in india before all his preaching stories and then when he was crucified he returned to India after he was dead according to us, Jesus was not made into the son of God until the bible was put together by a Pagan.

Religion is whats holding the world back and has always been peace’s worst enemy we must destroy religion to save the world, god will not help us

 

[saylo]

Sorry, I’m a little dense this morning after a sleep-deprived night.

Exactly what are you driving at, i.e. which point are you addressing?

For example, why did you say if Joseph was Jesus’ biological father then God could NOT be Jesus’ father? I thought God is Jesus’ father via the Trinity?

Thanks for any clarification.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Had He been conceived by St. Joseph then God is nowhere to be found.

 

[planter654]

Hi, DylanO!

Searching for the Messiah:
For some incomprehensible reason, the Jews continue to seek for an earth bound prince, messiah, king, prophet; they confine themselves to the ideals of man. Before Israel had an earthly king Yahweh God was their King–He felt betrayed that they should change His Glory for that of man; still, He allowed them their whim (1 Samuel 8:1 thru 10:27-- check vs 8:6-9).

Saul, after becoming Israel’s 1st king is quickly replaced by David, who is also a prophet; David is succeeded by Salomon. But David is not the original receptor of Yahweh’s Promise so we cannot rest on David’s “Blue” to forge the Messiah. Yet when we search the OT accounts here’s what we find: Joseph, the son of the Promise, marries Asenath, an Egyptian woman, and has two sons with her (Gn 41:44-52). We see that from the very beginning the “Blue” had been tainted.

Did Yahweh God make a mistake or does He aspire to greater things from us than “blue blood?”

Let’s look at the points they’ve missed:

• Yahweh makes a Promise (Abram to Abraham; Gn 17)
• Ismael, Abram’s first born of Hagar, is not of the Promise (Gn 16)
• Isaac, the son of the Promise is born (Gn 21:1-8)
• Promise goes to Jacob, 2nd born (Gn 25:19-34; 27; Mal 1:2-3)
• Promise goes to Ephraim also 2nd (Gn 48:8-20)

Did the priest/prophets fair differently?

• Moses’ successor was Joshua, not his son (Dt 34:7-12; Jos 1)
• Heli’s sons? No: Samuel (1 Sm 2:30-36; 3:1-20)
• Elijah’s? Nope: Elisah (2 Kgs 2:22)

Info quoted on Jesus’ lineage: Jehoichin is one of many cited, Jeconia is not mentioned at all, and Solomon loses God’s favor (1 Kngs 11:1-13–spec vs 10-13).

Maran atha!

Angel

Wasn"t Joshua the son of Aaron? Or was Joshua the son of Moses?
Just asking?

 

[planter654]

PRAISE GOD! My hope is restored! Thinking back on it, it is interesting that curses by God in most cases seem conditional, such as at Nineveh and when God was going to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. In both cases He had said “I WILL destroy them.” In both cases God did not do it upon the peoples repentence. God is Eternal. He does not change His Mind…but is seems when God threatens punsishment it often means “I WILL do this unless…” . I am so relieved!

Yes, God means what he says! God has many, many “I WILL” that is why the 12 Israelites were taken into captivity. For disobedience. We do not obey seriously also God" laws, commandments, statues, perscepts, ordinance given to us through Moses and witness before Heaven!

If the first earth was destroyed by water, where only 8 people survied! The second earth God says, he “will destroy the earth by fire”! God is not a liar! So we cannot be doing------------ all that God has commanded us to do-- right?--------Worship God! His commandments, his laws, never change, sabbaths, his feast days!

Joshua went into the temple to destroy and purge all the idols from “Solomon:”, and God was pleased! God means what he says " I WILL" if you do not obey me!

Worship God first!

 

[planter654]

St. Joseph was CHOSEN to be the foster father of Jesus. Jesus was refered to as the “…son of the carpenter ( Joseph)…”

If Joseph was Jesus’ biological father then God could NOT be Jesus’ father.

God makes His own rules and the decendancy of Jesus is intact. Those that follow the rigorous human lineage do NOT understand God’s ways.

Jesus was raised from the dead…He said He would take up His life again in the Gospel. It was written in the prophecies.

Jesus is God incarnate and since Joseph was His “foster father” we all then qualify as God’s adopted children.

No one in the 21st Century can trace his lineage from King David. All birth records have been destroyed when the Romans razed Jerusalem.

This is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

Did Joseph not have a dream given to him by God, about the salvation of Israel? Was he not told to take as his wife the young Mary? Does virgin birth— not mean Mary was born without original sin? Has this been altered through out the generations?

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Did God not choose the tribe of Levi to become priest and will always come from Levi, priest? Aaron

There is the “12 tribes of Israel”. God made and gave great promises to Abraham did he not? God fortold his blessings upon earth tribe did he not? Jacob is the apple of God’s eyes? Isaac?

Just asking?

Worship God! God Bless