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Bean61
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God gave men free will. The goal is for all men to be saved, but there will be those that choose not to be saved. That free will is what makes us human.
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Icemoon
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Sounds logical, but take a hard look at reality. The reality is that for some/many people, they do not wilfully disregard God. It is just that the Bible does not provide a strong case for Christianity. Many things have to be taken on faith.
The calvinist argues, God can certainly author the bible such that the biblical evidence is more compelling …
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Bean61
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Well Icemoon, it’s not just the Bible that must be obeyed but all of Catholic Tradition. You cannot understand the Bible properly without understanding Catholic Tradition. We are not a “Bible Alone” religion.
Not only that but even the Old Testament is understood in relation to the New Testament. I don’t see how a Jew under the Covenant of gaining land in the country of Caanan can understand our New Covenant with the Promised Land being Heaven.
We understand the Old Testament with Jesus Christ as the one who is pointed to. The Jews have refused to believe this. They understand, what I am calling the Old Testament, these Scriptures with a different light. Why is there a difference? You don’t believe Jesus is God. We do.
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Icemoon
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To add on,
it got so bad that Reformed Christians have to invoke the work of the Holy Ghost in regenerating the hearts of the lost before they can believe in Christ. Makes sense to me. As Apostle Paul said, man is a slave to sin. If you are a slave, how do you get out by yourself (your own free will) unless Christ draws you out explicitly?
The point here is not to argue they are right and everybody else wrong. The point is to show such a problem exist and the solution cannot compromise on the sovereignity attribute of God.
To reiterate, God can certainly author the Bible in such a way that there is much much less room for disagreement. Why mention emmanuel in Isaiah when you can use Yeshua, son of Hashem?
it got so bad that Reformed Christians have to invoke the work of the Holy Ghost in regenerating the hearts of the lost before they can believe in Christ. Makes sense to me. As Apostle Paul said, man is a slave to sin. If you are a slave, how do you get out by yourself (your own free will) unless Christ draws you out explicitly?
The point here is not to argue they are right and everybody else wrong. The point is to show such a problem exist and the solution cannot compromise on the sovereignity attribute of God.
To reiterate, God can certainly author the Bible in such a way that there is much much less room for disagreement. Why mention emmanuel in Isaiah when you can use Yeshua, son of Hashem?
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Icemoon
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If I may “abuse” Plantinga, the Jews have a properly basic belief. Their skeptical attitude to the claims of Christianity is justified. The burden of proof is on the Christians, not the Jews. Jews have no obligation to prove the Christian text wrongly. Just like Christians have no obligation to prove the Qu’ran wrong.
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Bean61
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By reformed Christians I can only suspect that you mean our Protestant brothers. Unfortunately for them they not only broke away from the Roman Catholic Church, but they distorted the Bible, especially the Old Testament, so that it is close to the Catholic Bible but no ringer.
The Protestants have no Magisterium. This is why there are 30,000 Protestant Churches in the US and still only one Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church has had 2000 years of Popes and Magisteriums. Everyone of them have told us what the Revelations of Jesus Christ is. The Protestants make it up as they go along.
I suggest that if you want to know what Christianity is all about, learn from the Catholic Church.
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Bean61
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Frankly Icemoon, if I tell a Jew about Christianity and they refuse to believe, I’ll just scrape the dirt from my shoes and go on to the next Jew. I have no burden of proof other than what Jesus Christ would desire of me. That goes for the Muslims also.
The Jews cannot prove the Christian New Testament is wrong. It is impossible for them to do so.
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Icemoon
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Aren’t they tired of using the same old trick?
Jews have their Mesorah, Catholics have their Popes and Magisterium, who do you want me to believe?
Added: common sense suggests that we should take the source closer to the original …
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Icemoon
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I think you miss the point. There can be a zillion holy books making their own claims. Must the Jews prove everyone of them wrong? Ditto for Christians. The onus is for the Christian New Testament to prove itself correct. The NT should elevate itself to the same pedestal of the Torah, which if you’d agree was given to the Israelites via a national revelation.
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Bean61
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Icemoon,
- A Protestant will only believe as true the Old and New Testaments.
- A Jew will only believe what is written in the Torah as true.
- A Pagan doesn’t believe anything but what his priest tells him.
- An Atheist believes in nothing.
- A Roman Catholic believes in the Old and New Testament. They believe in Holy Tradition. They believe in the teachings of the Church Doctors. They trust the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
They believe in the teachings of 2000 years of Popes and Magisteriums.
What really compounds the problem is that no two Jews believe in the same thing. Every Jew interprets the Torah as he sees fit. In this manner they are similar to the Christian Protestants. Neither you nor them have any continuity of beliefs. Neither of you have a figure who is in authority over what you read.
I have actually discussed with a Jewish woman her Jewish faith. It came out of her mouth like a manual used by Planned Parrenthood.
Your question about how Jews have to prove everyone wrong is silly. You can’t even convince another Jew that you are speaking the truth.
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Icemoon
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This is kind of misleading.
Why did you omit the Jewish belief in their tradition? The talmuds, the writing of the sages. Just as you trust your Early Church Fathers, they also trust Rashi, Rambam, Ramban etc. They believe in the Mesorah, that their tradition came from God on Sinai.
And not everything is clear cut in the Catholic faith. Contrary to what many Protestants think, the Pope does not utter holy infalliable words everytime. IIRC, there are only 7 instances of papal infalliability.
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Icemoon
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You picked the wrong Jewish woman, didn’t you?
There are certain core tenets in Judaism, like the Shema. Even Rambam’s articles of faith are not binding, iirc.
Personally I think that is beautiful. Why does God have to be so complicated? Why must believers accept incomprehensible dogma like the Trinity? The ideas in the Zohar like the ten sefiroths are beautiful but to bind them onto believers like dogma and anathemize people who disbelieve in them will be reprehensible.
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Bean61
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Art can be beautiful, however, some of it can be awfull.You picked the wrong Jewish woman, didn’t you?
There are certain core tenets in Judaism, like the Shema. Even Rambam’s articles of faith are not binding, iirc.
Personally I think that is beautiful. Why does God have to be so complicated? Why must believers accept incomprehensible dogma like the Trinity? The ideas in the Zohar like the ten sefiroths are beautiful but to bind them onto believers like dogma and anathemize people who disbelieve in them will be reprehensible.
God is simple, however He still made the universe and everything in it. The Trinity has been revealed to man by God. It is not incomprehensible, it is a mystery. Mysteries can be studied and examined. If God was so easily understood by man, man would then believe that he is greater than God. This happens all the time. Look at Adam and Eve. They wanted to be like God. Look at any dictator and see the face of a pseudo-god.
The woman I used in the example explains very well that the Jews believe whatever they want to believe about God and about their Torah. There is no leader or organization that has authority in matters of Scripture. There is no unity in belief among the Jews. Again, it is up to the individual as to what is right and what is wrong.
You’re correct in that the Catholic Church binds it members to God given revelations, dogma, and many of its teachings. They do this because what they are binding us to is the truth. God does not want His people wandering all over Creation wondering what is proper and what is not.
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jcrichton
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If you read Kings and Chronicles and the Judges… you do not need to go very far… Solomon began to take wives from the very people that Yahweh God Commanded that Israel should not intermarry and he ended up worshiping his wives’ gods instead of his God… you can also verify Israel’s determination to go on its way as it refuses to follow Yahweh’s commandments right from the book of Joshua…
Again, you are free to accept Scriptures or deny them since you are created by God Himself (“let us create man in our image and likeness”); yet, the Word of God is the final Word:
- Romans 9:25-33
- Hosea (all of it but specially 2:23)
- Isaiah 42:1-25
- Leviticus 26:14-46
Isaiah 10:22; Jeremiah 31:7; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:13.
It is from this Remnant that the Messiah Comes:
- Isaiah 42:1-9
- Isaiah 9:2, 6-8
- Isaiah 7:14
- St. Matthew 2:4-6
- Micah 5:2-4
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jcrichton
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What Calvin and his followers argue is that they want God to prove Himself to them; in essence they are saying “bend to my will and I’ll think about!”
You did not read Hebrews 11, did you?
What about Romans 1?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Jesus called them the blind who lead the blind… you are welcomed to follow them… just don’t try to convince others to do the same as you will fall under the same curse:Aren’t they tired of using the same old trick?
Jews have their Mesorah, Catholics have their Popes and Magisterium, who do you want me to believe?
Added: common sense suggests that we should take the source closer to the original …
Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both fall into the pit. (St. Matthew 15:14–)
But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. (St. Matthew 18:6–DRV)
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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You are truly confused in your wisdom.
You request Yahweh God to prove He is Yahweh God when Christians speak of Him while taking it for granted that He is Yahweh God when Judaism speaks of Him…
Yet you cannot see how you have taken Judaism as your religion of choice–you may not have been born into it and you may not have converted to it through official ceremonies but you defend it even against God Himself!
Maran atha!
Angel
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Bean61
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J Crichton,
I have noticed that Jews will understand responses if they come from the Old Testament.
Protestants will understand responses taken from the Old and New Testaments.
Pagans will understand responses from their leaders.
Atheists will understand nothing from anyone.
Catholics will understand responses taken from the New and Old Testaments, Holy Tradition, The Doctors of the Church. Most of what is said by the Early Church Fathers, and 2000 years of popes and magisteriums.
The above may be key in any debates that are held with any of the above.
I have noticed that Jews will understand responses if they come from the Old Testament.
Protestants will understand responses taken from the Old and New Testaments.
Pagans will understand responses from their leaders.
Atheists will understand nothing from anyone.
Catholics will understand responses taken from the New and Old Testaments, Holy Tradition, The Doctors of the Church. Most of what is said by the Early Church Fathers, and 2000 years of popes and magisteriums.
The above may be key in any debates that are held with any of the above.
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Joero
Guest
In Gen. 3:15 it says “I will put enmity between you (meaning the devil) and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall crush your head, and you shall crush his heel.”
Early theologians and even at present, see this as a Marian-Messianic prophecy. It would be very difficult if we would conclude immediately affirming to the theologians theory without any proof through scriptures, on this particular passage of the bible.
The woman in Gen. 3: 15 could not be well established who this woman is if we won’t establish first “her seed” or her offspring.
I would bring you first to Job chapter 41.
It speaks of a Leviathan, seems to be an enormous gigantic, powerful and invincible beast and no one on this world could be able to harm him.
In Isaiah 27: 1 this Leviathan is the dragon or the serpent. The dragon or the serpent in Rev. 12: 9 is the Devil or Satan.
According to Psalms 74: 12 - 14 it is only God himself could crush the head of the dragon or the Leviathan.
Let it be remembered that Jesus Christ is God incarnated: John 1:1, 14 (Supporting passages: Rev. 19: 13, 16; Rev. 17: 14; 1 Cor. 5: 7 and John 1: 29).
Some of the bible readers would refer the woman in Gen. 3: 15 to be Eve herself, so the question then would crop up as to who among the sons of Eve (Abel, Cain and Seth) made the crushing of the head of the serpent or any hint in the bible that would lead us to believe that among her sons one has crushed the serpent’s head? The Jews would obviously deny the messiahship of the lord Jesus Christ for they won’t believe that Christ was the 2nd person of the holy trinity.
Early theologians and even at present, see this as a Marian-Messianic prophecy. It would be very difficult if we would conclude immediately affirming to the theologians theory without any proof through scriptures, on this particular passage of the bible.
The woman in Gen. 3: 15 could not be well established who this woman is if we won’t establish first “her seed” or her offspring.
I would bring you first to Job chapter 41.
It speaks of a Leviathan, seems to be an enormous gigantic, powerful and invincible beast and no one on this world could be able to harm him.
In Isaiah 27: 1 this Leviathan is the dragon or the serpent. The dragon or the serpent in Rev. 12: 9 is the Devil or Satan.
According to Psalms 74: 12 - 14 it is only God himself could crush the head of the dragon or the Leviathan.
Let it be remembered that Jesus Christ is God incarnated: John 1:1, 14 (Supporting passages: Rev. 19: 13, 16; Rev. 17: 14; 1 Cor. 5: 7 and John 1: 29).
Some of the bible readers would refer the woman in Gen. 3: 15 to be Eve herself, so the question then would crop up as to who among the sons of Eve (Abel, Cain and Seth) made the crushing of the head of the serpent or any hint in the bible that would lead us to believe that among her sons one has crushed the serpent’s head? The Jews would obviously deny the messiahship of the lord Jesus Christ for they won’t believe that Christ was the 2nd person of the holy trinity.
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DylanO
Guest
So far, from people I have contacted about this issue, I have come across two explanations; that the promise God made that the Messiah would be of Solomon was conditional if Solomon and his sons were obedient to God but, since Solomon wasn’t faithful that promise was revoked (and a similar case mentioned for Jechoniah, some say he repented in Babylon and the curse was lifted because one of his descendants, Zerubbabel, was later blessed by Haggai (2:20–24) and that Joseph passed his genealogy down to Jesus legally so that previous curse wouldn’t matter if it was lifted or if it wasn’t the curse wouldn’t matter because Jesus wasn’t Joseph’s biological son. And the other is that Jesus would be just a qualified to be the Messiah as a biological descendant of Nathan.
So, I think the issue of Jechoniah is resolved but, the issue of the Messiah being a biological of Solomon is still kind of confusing.
Does the Bible say the Messiah has to be just from David? I realize the Bible does teach a father can pass on his tribal line by adoption so, that would make Jesus a legal descendant of Solomon but, going biologically from Mary, who was a descendant of Nathan, would someone from the line of Nathan be just as legitimate for the title of Messiah as someone from the line of Solomon?
So, I think the issue of Jechoniah is resolved but, the issue of the Messiah being a biological of Solomon is still kind of confusing.
Does the Bible say the Messiah has to be just from David? I realize the Bible does teach a father can pass on his tribal line by adoption so, that would make Jesus a legal descendant of Solomon but, going biologically from Mary, who was a descendant of Nathan, would someone from the line of Nathan be just as legitimate for the title of Messiah as someone from the line of Solomon?
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